Dat Nick Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Stick to just direct attack and you're just begging for characters to die... That's obviously why we're not sticking to 100% direct and 0% ranged. But you can't go 100% ranged which seems to be what Tino is arguing. Otherwise you're very prone to missing your target, then eating another attack anyway because you couldn't kill him in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 That's obviously why we're not sticking to 100% direct and 0% ranged.But you can't go 100% ranged which seems to be what Tino is arguing. Otherwise you're very prone to missing your target, then eating another attack anyway because you couldn't kill him in time. He's not arguing that >_>. If she can kill with a Wing Spear hit, then fine, let her use that Wing Spear He's arguing that most of the time, you'll be weakening enemies, which is true and using ranged attacks to do so is the more efficient way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Thanks, Levin. Finally someone who does understand what I'm actually talking about. Fine, Gordon > Doga, whatever. I don't care. Both fail anyway. I was addressing your points pertaining to ranged weapons and unreliable Hit, while you people are still rambling about Doga and Gordon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 If you're going to attack directly, it better be to finish off an enemy or weaken an enemy if you're absolutely 100% certain that nobody's going to attack the person that just made the direct attack. Again, when using melee attacks, don't attack on the player phase. Let the enemy attack you first and then your counter attack will weaken the enemy, and that enemy, while still alive, will clog up a spot where other enemies can't get to. Then on the player phase you heal up your melee units, have your javelins and Gordon weaken stuff, then have some melee units finish off enemies and be prepared to have a melee unit counter attack safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Again, when using melee attacks, don't attack on the player phase. Let the enemy attack you first and then your counter attack will weaken the enemy, and that enemy, while still alive, will clog up a spot where other enemies can't get to.Then on the player phase you heal up your melee units, have your javelins and Gordon weaken stuff, then have some melee units finish off enemies and be prepared to have a melee unit counter attack safely. Guess what's more efficient? Attack on the player phase with Javelins and Hand Axes, counter with them on the player phase, and use a melee weapon when you can kill the enemy with it in one blow, then counter with it on the enemy phase. As for this healing, that's a load of bull. You only have Riff, who heals less damage than your units take, and there's one fort near where you start, so even though you can heal your units, and though healing is very valuable, it's ironically nothing you can truly rely on. What's more reliable is taking no damage on the player phase with ranged weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Guess what's more efficient? Attack on the player phase with Javelins and Hand Axes, counter with them on the player phase, and use a melee weapon when you can kill the enemy with it in one blow, then counter with it on the enemy phase.Which Doga sucks at, BTW. Low accuracy + getting doubled for the lose.You're going to get hit no matter what and require healing, so you may as well use a weapon better suited for counter attacking to gain WTA and negate the enemy accuracy bonuses, even if you have used a ranged weapon and trade to switch. And I'm not denying that ranged weapons aren't useful. It's why Gordon doesn't completely suck, after all. All I'm arguing is that melee weapons can actually be used safely as long as you aren't reckless with them. What's more reliable is taking no damage on the player phase with ranged weapons.The tactic I brought up will not take damage on the player phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Both tactics are good decent but Chainey has a very good when he says: Let the enemy attack you first and then your counter attack will weaken the enemy, and that enemy, while still alive, will clog up a spot where other enemies can't get to. That's not to say you can't do it if you attack indirectly, thing is that if you are attacking indirectly, you should make sure that the enemy will not die on your counter-attack or else you're opening the person who killed the enemy on a counter-attack for death. I know you both know this, just clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Which Doga sucks at, BTW. Low accuracy + getting doubled for the lose. Again, this isn't about Doga vs. Gordon anymore. This is about the general efficiency of ranged weapons. The tactic I brought up will not take damage on the player phase. And makes you beat the chapter a lot slower. Huzzah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) Again, this isn't about Doga vs. Gordon anymore. This is about the general efficiency of ranged weapons.This argument probably stemmed from Javelins vs. the Steel Bow and why Gordon's accuracy is keeping him in play.And makes you beat the chapter a lot slower. Huzzah!How much slower does it make it? I can't see it slowing down except maybe a couple of units, and for the second half of the chapter you would want to lure anyway. Edited March 7, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 This argument probably stemmed from Javelins vs. the Steel Bow and why Gordon's accuracy is keeping him in play. It came from Doga vs. Gordon, perhaps, but it's not about them anymore, because you claimed Javelins and Hand Axes to be inaccurate in general. How much slower does it make it? I can't see it slowing down except maybe a couple of units, and for the second half of the chapter you would want to lure anyway. Hmm, let's see... Player 1: Attack Enemy 1: Counter Player 2: Kill Instead of: Player 1: Idle Enemy 1: Counter Player 2: Idle Enemy 2: Counter Player 3: Kill That'll eventually build up to a fair amount of turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 because you claimed Javelins and Hand Axes to be inaccurate in general.I don't remember flat out saying they were, but they do have a bit of luck factor, and I prefer using stability when possible.Though, the hit rate *is* unreliable for Doga, so finding out his true hit only supports my stance that Gordon > Doga. Hmm, let's see...Player 1: Attack Enemy 1: Counter Player 2: Kill Instead of: Player 1: Idle Enemy 1: Counter Player 2: Idle Enemy 2: Counter Player 3: Kill More like...Player 1: Idle Players 2+: Ranged attack whatever they can Enemy 1: Attack Player 1 Player 1: Counter Attacks Player 1: Whatever can be done Players 2+: Kill the now weakened enemy, and also take advantage of any favorable positions that enemies walked into. And whatever variations call for the situation. What gave you the idea I was saying to have units take turns tanking? You should know better, especially since I said ranged weapons would be used at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Those numbers were phases, fyi. And as I said, I don't care about whether you think Gordon is better than Doga or not. If Gordon truly is better, fine, I don't care. And yes, as far as I recall, you (or somebody else, for that matter) said something similar to "hitting with Javelins and Hand Axes is unreliable". At least, that's what it came down to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 And as I said, I don't care about whether you think Gordon is better than Doga or not. If Gordon truly is better, fine, I don't care.Well, that's really what this discussion is about, because in reality this argument won't affect the tier positions of other characters much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Well, that's really what this discussion is about, because in reality this argument won't affect the tier positions of other characters much. Then why did you initially start talking about ranged weapons (or Javelins and Hand Axes, at least) being generally unreliable weapons earlygame? Anyway, aside of Gordon and Doga, is there anything else somebody disagrees with on my chapter 2 arguments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Again, when using melee attacks, don't attack on the player phase. Let the enemy attack you first and then your counter attack will weaken the enemy, and that enemy, while still alive, will clog up a spot where other enemies can't get to. I'm pretty sure you addressed this already, but trading easily allows a unit to go ranged on player phase and melee on enemy phase, especially since your units will be glued together almost all the time. Javelins and Hand Axes have the advantage of having 1 more MT than their iron counterparts, which IIRC is actually significant early-game (this is coming from personal experience, but I feel it's relevant). The only scenario in which it would be wise to risk a melee attack on an enemy during player phase is if it's fatal, and even then if you don't have 100% hit, you're running the risk of getting countered on player phase and getting attacked on enemy phase, whereas if the ranged attacker misses, he'll only risk facing one attack anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) Gonna get this going. Hm.Okay, open to corrections here. C3 W1n: Ogma Abel Cain Barst Lena [You can just dump Riff's stuff on her] Riff High: Shiida Nabarl Castor Marth Mid: Daros Bord Cord Gordin Suck: Julian Draug Ch. 3.We already had a huge argument about Rena and Riff's position. IIRC Nathan Graves shown a way where Riff was actually more useful, so Riff can very much go up above Rena. Kain & Abel are a bit better since they get another level up, but I think their position was based on the usual strategy that one would grind one of them to become exceptionally useful rather than using them normally, so I think Barst will still win. Actually, can't Barts use the Devil Axe? That would make him incredibly useful by default for the boss, so I think that helps him earn top tier position. Dunno about Navarre. Does he double? I doubt it since enemies seem to have 10-11 AS on this chapter according to the H5 stat thread. Cord probably still isn't able to use a hand axe. I think Bord can > Darros since he trades 1 HP for more Skill and Strength. Edited March 7, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Devil axe is D rank. Darros, Saji and Barst can use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hmm, that Chapter 3 list lacks some Jeigan <_< Yeah, you're getting this going, but is anything actually done with the arguments I posted against the Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 lists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hmm, that Chapter 3 list lacks some JeiganI'm thinking just above Kain & Abel then since his stats haven't been surpassed yet (assuming they're level 3) and still has Silver Lance to use.Yeah, you're getting this going, but is anything actually done with the arguments I posted against the Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 lists?I don't control the Ch. 1 & 2 tier lists. I don't even control the Ch. 3 tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I think I can agree on the Jeigan part. And what I meant to say was that it might not be so wise to start on the next chapter when we're not even done with the first two chapters yet, because that might make things incredibly confusing eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 If people disagreed further, they would have done so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Yes, but I want to know if anything is actually done with it, which means I need confirmation from the dood who actually made this list. I mean, it might be true that nobody disagrees, but if the lists remain unchanged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 I'll do something about it. Stop being so uptight that your wanted changes aren't official. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) I'll dig through the topic, fetch and update the lists when I can be bothered Edited March 7, 2009 by Sweet Tooth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Wolf in the same tier as Sedgar now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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