Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Ogma is doubling during those "6 levels" Why would you give a manual to such characters for hand axes when they've already got Javelins? It's not worth it. Ogma's doubling in the early game and has some of the best damage output at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 First off as a note, Navarre has 20% more speed growth than Ogma, not 10%, it shows MUCH quicker than that. my mistake. remembered Ogma's speed growth as 40% for some reason Still, it gives him enough of an edge. Secondly, they're both dying in 2 shots anyways and Navarre is not dying in one shot. 3 [probably more] HP equates to something even if they're both getting 2HKOd. That can be the difference between Riff shooting them up to enough health to take another shot....and Riff not doing so. Ogma's not doubling either anyways so all he really has on is the strength lead he has even if it's only the strength lead, Ogma still>Nabarl for this time frame. No matter how small the lead is. That's why we want him fighter, for the time's he's not doubling anyways and would prefer fighter. It's not solely for axe rank. Okay? Even if we don't level him as fighter, Merc Ogma>Myrmidon Nabarl. From now to Endgame, in various degrees [which mostly become notable after promotion] So even if Fighter is superior for him, we're discussing Ogma vs Nabarl here, and why would Ogma pick something that makes him clearly inferior to Nabarl? The manual you say? Cain or Abel would like it too to use hand axes as dracoknights too. Hm? They already have javelins. Handaxes are only really good for them for knocking down enemy avo. They'll live. They'll more than live, in fact, since why does avo even matter if you're attacking from afar? Well, no, it DOES matter, but not nearly as much. the faster Vyland can use slayer weapons the better. The manual is in....Chapter 12. Vyland will have the ridersbane by now and if not the armorslayer, he'll be close. Furthermore, why are we even assuming Vyland is in play? Even I don't see him going above Low, and...well...look at my username. What's he doing with his meh strength and speed combo as a hero anyways? What's Nabarl doing with his fail strength and good speed combo as a swordmaster, anyways? Athena too. already got into why Abel/Cain don't need handaxes. It's the same story with Athena if she can use javelins. Which...she can unless she spent every single level as Myrmidon or something like that. Navarre's offense WOULD suck, but he can reliably double eventually Good offense is not parallel to "reliable doubling", as in, achieving one does NOT mean you have achieved both. Look at the generic swordmasters. They reliably double. Know what they do to most things? TINK X2. Nabarl's only so much better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'd say it's easier to argue Ogma is a tier above Catria than a tier under Cord, what say you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Considering Ogma is indeed better than Navarre anyways, only reason I'm arguing is to show he deserves at least a place below Cord. Having realized that a certain myrmidon is not doing well wielding steel due to getting doubled by thieves, I'd say Ogma deserves to be below Cord in the same tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 I put him back in High, but I can see him going above Cord. Better earlygame > better endgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I put him back in High, but I can see him going above Cord. Better earlygame > better endgame. Better earlygame indeed, epic earlygame in fact, but Cord has more then endgame the minute he starts being able to use hammers and pole-axes. Edited March 12, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I don't think earlygame vs endgame is clearcut like that. Earlygame generally has less enemies to win against, but the gap between Ogma and Cord is probably bigger early on than later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I don't think earlygame vs endgame is clearcut like that. Earlygame generally has less enemies to win against, but the gap between Ogma and Cord is probably bigger early on than later on. Not really. Ogma never really becomes importantly more durable until later, at which point Cord is spanking him in offense while early on Ogma's only having equal offense to Barts with steel when he's doubling with iron, meaning both are eating a counter regardless and Barts can finish people off at a more safer place since he doesn't need to double to do the same damage. With steel, Ogma does a measily 1 more damage than Cord. Ogma's great for Reynard but giving Navarre a level, he's likely to gain a point in strength or speed (90%) and do the same thing. Obviously it's easier to just use Ogma, but he's not as mandatory or important as everyone thinks. Past chapter 3, he's pretty much no different from the others. I personally find Ogma overrated, so I might be a bit biased...feel free to ignore this, but if I make a point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Endgame, warp staff use is a factor which is why I consider early-mid game more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Endgame, warp staff use is a factor which is why I consider early-mid game more important. Then why are staff users not higher for apparently trivializing a part of the game? Midgame is precisely WHEN Cord gets hammers and Pole-axes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Then why are staff users not higher for apparently trivializing a part of the game?Because this is not a speed run tier list. It's an overall usefulness tier list, but warp staves are still a part of the game.Not only that, but H5 get easier after the first ten chapters, so I weigh the early game more for units being more useful during this time. BTW, if Oguma were overrated, he would still be in top tier. He's done nothing but drop. I don't see how he's overrated. Anyway, even if I'm right on the earlygame > endgame (which I doubt it), I won't try to argue Oguma over Cord. Edited March 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Not only that, but H5 get easier after the first ten chapters, so I weigh the early game more for units being more useful during this time. imo, difficulty is a side effect of how enemies compare to PCs, but says nothing about a character's performance. Sure, oftentimes, difficulty and importance of certain leads go hand in hand: if everyone doubles against enemies with 20 hp/1 def, who cares whether they have 25, 30 or 35 atk? If everyone takes 0 damage from enemies due to them having only 20 atk, who cares about having 20, 25 or 30 def? However, this is not the case in H5. Earlygame, dudes die in 1-3 rounds of combat, mostly 2, and you need around 3-4 PCs to concentrate their attacks on one enemy to take them down. Someone like Jeigan takes 3, sometimes 4 rounds to die and 2 rounds many enemies, leaving them with low enough hp with Silver Lance for someone else to wipe them up without even taking a counter. No one else can imitate it without significant death risk. Ogma would probably come closest, dying in 2 rounds of combat like most people, but 2 rounding enemies when he doubles with Iron. Or maybe Barst is similar, and he also has 2-range like Jeigan. Later on (say, when people promote), Jeigan gets 2-rounded by everything, 1-rounded even sometimes, and in return he does like a third of the amount of damage other people do. Ogma but mostly Barst are above him by far, sometimes taking as much as 4-5 rounds to die depending on the enemy, and 2-rounding most enemies. This is why those two > Jeigan - the gap later on is much bigger than early on. Regardless of how difficult he is, you have to look at the difference between them. If the game is difficult early on, it is so for every unit. If it's easy later on, same story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 So who here thinks Beck could stand to go up a bit more? Needs no real training to be useful (Catria does), has Thunderbolt for the Wooden Cavalry and for whenever else ballisticians pose a problem, Arrowspate for those damned annoying fliers and hoistflamme + Pachyderm + stonehoist for everything else. Jake wouldn't climb, due to being a detriment in his next chapter with his low movement and cav + horsemen reinforcements chasing your tail and not wanting to waste arrowspate on them along with unable to use thunderbolt for the wooden cavalry without taking forever AND being completely useless against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 So basically you want Catria to drop below them? I think Catria should drop anyway. I'll hear what others have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 So basically you want Catria to drop below them?I think Catria should drop anyway. I'll hear what others have to say. Indeed. I would actually see if she could drop more now thinking about it, but Upper Mid is a hodgepodge of units that have various uses. I'd think Wendell's healing and magic wielding, later various staff using would be better than Catria's lategame use. Wendell can at least later just dedicate himself to staff use when he's not good anymore, so he has a LARGE gamespan of use compared to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 She's below Beck & Jake. By the way, I think Gotoh > Nagi now. Not having Nagi means you go from one turning the final chapter to two-turning the final chapter, but going through Nagi's chapter makes you waste a turn anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 She's below Beck & Jake.By the way, I think Gotoh > Nagi now. Not having Nagi means you go from one turning the final chapter to two-turning the final chapter, but going through Nagi's chapter makes you waste a turn anyway. Sounds fine to me. Besides, this is an efficiency tier list and not a speed run list, no? If one chooses not to use the warp and suicide option, Gotoh's better. Not like Nagi or Marth can't miss either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Just saying, I only now realized that getting Gotoh doesn't change the result of getting a low turn count if you choose to do so. That, and you can just keep resetting for a lucky crit if you're doing segmented. We need more people telling me I'm wrong. Edited March 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Just saying, I only now realized that getting Gotoh doesn't change the result of getting a low turn count if you choose to do so.That, and you can just keep resetting for a lucky crit if you're doing segmented. We need more people telling me I'm wrong. Even with it all considered, Endgame chapter is STILL easy thanks to Geosphere and the TONS of Reserve staves with forged weapons and dragonslayer weapons, it's no trouble as it is. Gotoh adds to the reserve staff user list, he can use Swarm too and comes with a high power tome and great stats. Is endgame REALLY so dangerous we need to one-turn the boss anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Uh, if it means anything, you can still 1 turn the endgame even if you get Gotoh. Nagi just means more ammo against Medeus really. As for endgame, it certainly is difficult to do it traditionally if you're lacking Geosphere. Casualties are quite possible for the 3 person group. If you're doing it traditionally, you're also going have to wait many turns to avoid getting overpowered by the reinforcements so really, it's best 1 turn the blasted thing... Edited March 12, 2009 by Sirius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Uh, if it means anything, you can still 1 turn the endgame even if you get Gotoh. Nagi just means more ammo against Medeus really.As for endgame, it certainly is difficult to do it traditionally if you're lacking Geosphere. Casualties are quite possible for the 3 person group. If you're doing it traditionally, you're also going have to wait many turns to avoid getting overpowered by the reinforcements so really, it's best 1 turn the blasted thing... Why the hell wouldn't we have the geosphere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Why the hell wouldn't we have the geosphere? Who's to say that a player will not use it to weaken enemies if he's in need of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Who's to say that a player will not use it to weaken enemies if he's in need of it? Geosphere gets rid of those pesky-ass reserve staffers in case something goes wrong, helps kill that damn mamkute in front of Medius faster and can just fuck up everyone else on the map to easy-peasy health. I couldn't dream of a better time to have the geosphere at full use. Especially since that chapter is based on killing Medius. If we fuck up, there's no reserve staff pricks to heal at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I think you're right, but I don't really want to get into it right now. I'll think about it and post my decision later... Nagi is technically more useful than Gato (Magestone users say hi), but Gato has utility as a healer, if nothing else. He also has Swarm and whatever other maigc you want him to use (Thoron, Excalibur) to help out. This isn't my opinion, just my take on the overall usefulness of the characters. And the Geosphere is useful in other chapters besides the Endgame, BTW. So it might have been used already. EDIT: Thunderman/Levin/Sirius beat me to it. Edited March 12, 2009 by Camtech075 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Geosphere gets rid of those pesky-ass reserve staffers in case something goes wrong, helps kill that damn mamkute in front of Medius faster and can just fuck up everyone else on the map to easy-peasy health. I couldn't dream of a better time to have the geosphere at full use. Especially since that chapter is based on killing Medius. If we fuck up, there's no reserve staff pricks to heal at least. Again who's to say that a player will not make use of it at some other time? Brave weapons are an issue for teams that lack a high DEF generals so a Geosphere could be of some use. Hell, since I use the warp strategy, I could make use of the Geosphere just about anywhere after I get it since I won't need it in the final chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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