H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

I'm convinced that Doga is very much likely better than the Social Knights. This will be an interesting turnout indeed.

[Colonel M]

I bet B2BD will ask about Hunter -> General Doga. Okay, look at these stats just at a glance (20/5):

40.4 HP | 14.4 Str | 1.0 Mag | 12.3 Skl | 19.1 Spd | 7.9 Luck | 17.6 Def | 3.0 Res

I don't get it: he's a freaking giant, but he's fast? @_@; at Anime.

Alright, just a quick rundown: 20/6 Doga has a chance of doubling the 16 AS Paladins (19.5 Spd), which would make those Ridersbane shots a ORKO flat out. He's still doing around 30 damage for single hits, so he's not doing bad in that aspect. So of course durability. This is where things get a little wonky. I'll assume the Def stat is rounded for now.

19 Atk (Horseman) - 2 damage (rofl20RKO)

20 Atk (Pegasi) - 4 damage (lol10RKO)

21 Atk (25 Atk Brave Sword -WTD) - 6 damage (7RKO)

22 Atk (26 Atk Brave Sword -WTD) - 8 damage (5RKO)

23 Atk (27 Atk Brave Sword -WTD) - 10 damage (4RKO)

25 Atk - 12 damage (4RKO)

26 Atk - 14 damage (3RKO)

27 Atk - 16 damage (3RKO)

DracoKnights fall in the 22 Atk category for C21.

As you can see it's pretty... close. It's passing, I'll admit that. Generals being 3RKOed sometimes seems weird though. Anyway, his durability improves slightly over time: it's just unfortunate the growths are 60% in HP (which is good) and 30% Def (which is kind of bad).

Just in case you wondered.

[Dat Nick]

Myself and Jackal both thought he would be 20/7 by then, which would guarantee pwning the paladins.

Anyway, consider what he's actually being 3RKOd by: the same shit that 2RKOs most dudes.

[Colonel M]

Myself and Jackal both thought he would be 20/7 by then, which would guarantee pwning the paladins.

Anyway, consider what he's actually being 3RKOd by: the same shit that 2RKOs most dudes.

I wouldn't totally deny the levels here. Yes, at this rate he would be WTFRAEPING the Pallys. One issue could be the DracoKnights though: 21 Spd cap sort of sucks. Then, yeah, it's just odd for a General to be that exposed to that # of RKOes, if you know what I mean. This isn't saying Doga's bad though.

[Dat Nick]

Not doubling the Dracos sucks a little bit less when you remember he has his bow rank built up as Hunter: So he's sniping them right out of the sky.

[Colonel M]

Not ORKOing without Parthia / Forge sucks though.

46-49 HP | 12-13 Def

Assuming Doga has 15 Str, he does 40-41 damage. Yeah, at least he's hitting thme pretty damn hard. Weird how Generals with Bows is such a cool idea (I thought it'd be full of shit at first but dayum is it nice to have). Then again ORKOing these guys is hard to do.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Not ORKOing without Parthia / Forge sucks though.

Like you just said though, he can at least set them up the bomb so the finisher doesn't have to eat a counter.

[Colonel M]

It might not be a bad idea to compare it to a similair Cav though. Let's just assume it's a 20/7 Kain since he's the bulkier of the two (more HP%):

40.2 HP | 18.4 Str | 1.0 Mag | 20.2 Skl | 20.2 Spd | 13.0 Luck | 14.7 Def | 3 Res

Assume that Def-parameters are 40 HP | 15 Def. Then, we take into consideration that Kain will have WTA most, if not all the time. -2 Atk only for the Lances, but -4 (lol) for the Swordies. Looking at this again (and I'll skip Horseman):

18 Atk (Pegasi) - 6 damage (7RKO)

20 Atk (Dracos) - 10 damage (4RKO)

21 Atk (Sword Pally) - 12 damage (4RKO)

22 Atk (Sword Pally) - 14 damage (3RKO)

23 Atk (Sword Pally, Lance Pally) - 16 damage (3RKO)

24 Atk (Lance Pally) - 18 damage (3RKO)

25 Atk (Lance Pally) - 20 damage (2RKO)

Just in case someone would've asked this one too. There is another thing though: Kain's Avoid game. Kain with just a Marf support and WTA has 46. Braves have 88-96 tops I believe. Even the highest breaks 50% even, so the chance of death against a 2RKO is still 25%, then the 3RKO is about 12.5%, etc. If Abel's in play it obviously gets better. Yeah, I can see Doga > Cavs, but then again Cavs aren't sucking in C2 and C3 (partially to C4-Ridersbane before it expiers and before Doga doubles as a Hunter).

Edited July 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

The cavs also aren't being epic lol in Chapter 1. It cancels out decently enough for him.

[Colonel M]

The cavs also aren't being epic lol in Chapter 1. It cancels out decently enough for him.

Kain's got the Javelin problem, but he does have a Steel Sword (reliable hit at least) and Abel is about the same as Doga at that point. Doga wins this due to durability, though by C2 the situation almost flipflops to Kain and Abel because Doga is 1-2RKOed sometimes when he's doubled by the nasty Pirates. The good news is he has the Javelin still, but the Hit rates for this (and admittedly Abel's isn't much better) get knocked down a bit because of the Pirate's Axes.

I'd still say Doga > Cavs though in either route (Fighter -> Berserker or Hunter -> General). DM is kind of iffy for Doga to explore though not the worst of options.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Draug's certainly got a better case as one than the cavs do as mages.

Another aspect you guys missed was Draug at promotion. Check up the stats of hunter-general Draug, check the enemies and you'll realize you need 4 of the strongest guys (28) to, seriously, 4RKO him. I'm not sure anyone else not a general is pulling off anything similar. This is called having an existent enemy phase. Needs 2 speed to double pallies, but at least he has ridersbane and being enough of a wall to cockblock them pretty hard.

Draug is the man.

[Rodykitty]

I'm guessing I'll leave Doga where he is for now.

[dondon151]

Counter-Argument: Draug can get a forged steel, and that's more likely due to being way cheaper to forge.

And it lasts longer.

Forged Ridersbane helps everyone with a C rank in lances to OHKO enemy horsemen and cavaliers. Forged Steel Axe only helps Draug and possibly Cord later on. In addition, Forged Steel Axe has 35 uses to Ridersbane's 20, but Draug needs to double to match damage output, so it actually doesn't last as long. And then, against armors, he'll still rather use a +3/+4 MT Hammer over a Steel Axe.

[Colonel M]

The only problem is Ridersbanes aren't plentiful: there's two before C14. One in C4 then one in C13. That one in C4 would have to last a long time.

[Rodykitty]

With Rapier and Wing Spear, that won't be a problem.

The bigger problem will be sharing the Horse Slayer, but...

Edited July 15, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Lemme guess, a list of people who would want the Ridersbane? There is indeed a problem there...As who else is gonna have a C by the time you kill Benson?

Jeigen

That's it. By now, we're thinking of killing off Jeigen as well. Aside from him, Abel's the ONLY one to have claim on it until Hardin shows up. Everyone else has to build rank.

[Rodykitty]

Hardin.

And maybe Abel, but I'm not sure how realistic that is or not.

EDIT: Oh, you meant very very early chapters.

Anyway, the point is the same. By the time the majority of your units are using Ridersbane, the availability is boosted. This is a much better situation than Poleaxes.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

Why does Hunter>General care about Poleaxes at all?

[Rodykitty]

They don't. Just poking Colonel M for his Pole Axe advertising schemes.

[Colonel M]

Eh? I didn't even advocate Poleaxe... anywhere in my recent posts. Not even with the Cord vs. Barst vs. Doga vs. Kain I didn't even hint toward Poleaxes.

There's 5 Poleaxes anyway so no worries unless we're squandering them.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

I still don't see how Doga>Cavs having a tier gap at all. So we're giving Doga a free pass on durability completely before promotion, just because he has 1~2 range (Abel is usually surviving an extra hit compared to him). If that's the case, why don't we just look at Abel as a freshly promoted Cav-->Sniper on Chapter 16. And we'll say he has B Bows from spending a chapter or 2 as an Archer

Offensively: 29 Atk w/Silver Bow, 20 AS

One rounds Horsemen

One rounds Wyverns

Three rounds Heroes

One rounds Cavs

Two rounds Palys

Two rounds Generals

Draug offensively: 28 Atk w/Silver Bow, 18 AS (Keep in mind I'm giving him A Bows)

Two rounds Horsemen (Doesn't double)

Two rounds Wyverns (Doesn't double)

Three rounds Heroes

One rounds Cavs except for the toughest one, which he two rounds

Three rounds Palys (Doesn't double)

Two rounds Generals

If we're giving Draug a free pass on durability before promotion, then why not do the same to Abel post promotion? Abel now offensively rapes Draug. Abel is raping Draug growthwise this way as well, except for losing 15% defense (And lol 5% luck).

And what, 20/7 was the estimated level for Brave chapters I hear?

Abel's avoid (A Marth/A Cain): 48

He's facing about 45-50% displayed hit, so he's probably dodging one of the two brave attacks. In that case, he dies in three rounds. Could Draug do that before promotion? Exactly.

What seems to happen is that you guys find a build that dramatically improves the usefulness of a character, and then hype it to hell and back without looking at any of its flaws. See: Cav-->Dracoknight Gordon (Which didn't even improve his usefulness).

Edited July 15, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

If you're arguing putting him in High tier as opposed to top, I can do that. I will still wait to see if the Social Knights are agreed to be better or not.

[Colonel M]

There are two problems with this comparison so far:

1) Abel promoted before Draug. Why is that?

2) Avoid =/= reliable whatsoever.

I'm not denying he's immune to the Cav case, but let's attempt to be somewhat fair about this. Promoting by C16 with Abel isn't a major stretch.

[Don Draper]

Abel isn't being promoted before Draug, I'm promoting them both at Chapter 16 in the comparison. And no, avoid isn't completely reliable, but he's facing between 40-50% true hit which still needs to be accounted for.

And yes, this is just to show that Draug and the Cavs should be in the same tier, not necessarily them being better (Although I might argue that more later).

Edited July 15, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Doga isn't exactly the lacking in the dodging department. Granted Generals suck at it, but... anyway, Bows wouldn't be the main weapon at this point: he'd be using some Ridersbane goodness since he's a General I presume (and creeping toward a Silver Lance).

To show, 20/7 Doga has about 20 Spd / 8 Luck, which equates to 24 Avoid. Now Marf boosts this to 34. Taking the Braves into account that their Hit rates are in the 90s, that's still knocking them down ~60% (true that the True Hit will be the bane); however, then his concrete durability also takes into account and he can survive 3RKOes or higher. Then there's C21 when DracoKnights sport about 88 Hit.