H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

Then what? We stick to Pegasus Knight!Shiida and she sucks for the vast majority of the time except for the class bonus? Nevermind that her utility gets iffier and iffier over time and then we have to worry about protecting her if she doesn't level up. Then it only has 28 uses and has to last a total of 5 chapters which limits its uses slightly.

EDIT: Scratch that, it's even longer than that. Next one comes all the way in C8! Then after that it's C16.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Then what? We stick to Pegasus Knight!Shiida and she sucks for the vast majority of the time except for the class bonus?

Except Wing Spear makes her not suck.

But if you want to use Sheeda as a long term unit and not just utility, she can do so as Mage. Granted, she'll have to level up but the tier list is accounting for both setups. Let's not forget she'll have the weapon level for Aura.

Nevermind that her utility gets iffier and iffier over time and then we have to worry about protecting her if she doesn't level up.

The durability being iffy is true, but having to protect her is not much of an issue. She has such high move and maneuverability that you should never have to wall her ever. Like I said in a previous post, she can easily choose her fights.

Then it only has 28 uses and has to last a total of 5 chapters which limits its uses slightly.

Which shouldn't be a problem because it's so strong she can easily conserve uses by dealing 2/3rd HP damage to enemies that are weakened by others, making the times she's doubling to kill not as often.

[Colonel M]

Except Wing Spear makes her not suck.

]

You're right. It's the only thing that makes her not suck.

But if you want to use Sheeda as a long term unit and not just utility, she can do so as Mage. Granted, she'll have to level up but the tier list is accounting for both setups. Let's not forget she'll have the weapon level for Aura.

Why the hell does this remind me of when I was class juggling and it wasn't allowed? If we're accounting that she's "utility" with the Wing Spear, then why isn't Gordin higher? Marth? Abel? Hardin?

So what exactly is her tier placement judged by: her use of a Mage or her utility with the Wing Spear? It can't exactly be "both" since it would either require her to permenantly stay as a Pegasus Knight or reclassing to a Mage.

The durability being iffy is true, but having to protect her is not much of an issue. She has such high move and maneuverability that you should never have to wall her ever. Like I said in a previous post, she can easily choose her fights.

No, she cannot all the time. I could pit her next to a fort that respawns a Cavalier and then what? She chips them once and has to go heal or maybe die pending on the situation. She can't exactly "pick" fights if there's more than one of them, which is usually the case anyway.

Which shouldn't be a problem because it's so strong she can easily conserve uses by dealing 2/3rd HP damage to enemies that are weakened by others, making the times she's doubling to kill not as often.

It's longer than that: 8 chapter gap, 9 with the Gaiden chapter. That's pretty bad. Once Wing Spear dissapoofs she's almost useless.

[Rodykitty]

You're right. It's the only thing that makes her not suck.

There's the whole Mage class that makes her not suck, but then the Wing Spear is so powerful and Sheeda stands out as actually being able to double most things with it, it really isn't such a bad thing that she's so reliant on it. Many characters would love to be able to use Wing Spear.

Why the hell does this remind me of when I was class juggling and it wasn't allowed? If we're accounting that she's "utility" with the Wing Spear, then why isn't Gordin higher? Marth? Abel? Hardin?

So what exactly is her tier placement judged by: her use of a Mage or her utility with the Wing Spear? It can't exactly be "both" since it would either require her to permenantly stay as a Pegasus Knight or reclassing to a Mage.

I said the tier list is accounting for both paths, not mixing and matching per chapter to try and optimize, which is class juggling.

You haven't been around for awhile, but this tier list has gotten to the point where multiple class paths are taken into account now for other characters as well. It's no longer "Oguma's best class is Merc", it's "either Merc or Hunter".

No, she cannot all the time. I could pit her next to a fort that respawns a Cavalier and then what? She chips them once and has to go heal or maybe die pending on the situation. She can't exactly "pick" fights if there's more than one of them, which is usually the case anyway.

She should be blocking forts in this case anyway.

It's longer than that: 8 chapter gap, 9 with the Gaiden chapter. That's pretty bad. Once Wing Spear dissapoofs she's almost useless.

The time she's spent killing and having one less enemy you have to gang up on with multiple units (key word here, her utility stems from her ability for enemies to die from a 1:1 ratio, while most others need to kill at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. The more that die on the player phase, the safer the enemy phase is) will heavily outweigh whatever time she's spent not doing anything.

And once again, she's very easily capable of functioning and conserving Wing Spear uses. She does so much damage per hit she can score kills with just one use per kill, and it's not like she is demanding level ups, so that's even less uses she'll be using because the Wing Spear is awesome because we're using it when necessary.

[Colonel M]

There's the whole Mage class that makes her not suck, but then the Wing Spear is so powerful and Sheeda stands out as actually being able to double most things with it, it really isn't such a bad thing that she's so reliant on it. Many characters would love to be able to use Wing Spear.

The only thing is once it dissapears, which then it becomes a problem. She's not going to hit Silver Lances with a snap of a finger and suddenly become awesome. Then she becomes heavily dependant on that. Only thing we're thankful about is that she isn't reliant to the very point of needing extra Str.

I said the tier list is accounting for both paths, not mixing and matching per chapter to try and optimize, which is class juggling.

It's borderline upon it. If it was simply based on the Wing Spear she'd still be lower anyway. It's almost a vague way of class juggling since it accounts a seperate class and such. She cannot do both.

You haven't been around for awhile, but this tier list has gotten to the point where multiple class paths are taken into account now for other characters as well. It's no longer "Oguma's best class is Merc", it's "either Merc or Hunter".

Would you suddenly allow me to then say this:

"K, Oguma goes to Armor Knight in C3, promotes early, then forever takes little to no damage despite having low Spd".

Trust me: I can go there easily. He does do good as an Armor Knight too. Then I have to question suddenly why Darros would be that high or even Athena due to the "either class X or Y". In all honesty it should be optimized as the best class with some exceptions.

She should be blocking forts in this case anyway.

Any female class unit can do this (and Jeigan). Fort respawns also aren't frequent. For example C10 they spawn from the entrance. Then some forts are clumped together such as C8s.

The time she's spent killing and having one less enemy you have to gang up on with multiple units (key word here, her utility stems from her ability for enemies to die from a 1:1 ratio, while most others need to kill at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. The more that die on the player phase, the safer the enemy phase is) will heavily outweigh whatever time she's spent not doing anything.

The same also applies to Marth but you don't see me suddenly hyping that. Or Ridersbane. Or Hammer. Or Devil Axe. Etc, etc. It's nice she has Wing Spear but that doesn't mean she's suddenly that much more useful: the team has options.

Oguma did this in C2 when he doubled some Pirates. He can continue to do this a bit later on. In C5 he can put some decent dents in many units since doubling isn't a major problem with his class and Silver Sword is there.

And once again, she's very easily capable of functioning and conserving Wing Spear uses. She does so much damage per hit she can score kills with just one use per kill, and it's not like she is demanding level ups, so that's even less uses she'll be using because the Wing Spear is awesome because we're using it when necessary.

The problem is it would have to be used 3 times per chapter just to conserve its uses. There are obviously more instances where there are more than 3 Cavs and times where she'll have to double on them to kill.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

You're overrating the Wing Spear useage issue so much. Already some chapters she doesn't need it (namely axe filled ones where she isn't getting damage bonus from it, and would rather chuck Javelins), and even if she runs out of uses she'll have gained enough EXP to use other Lances anyway, and Ch. 8 is not a long time.

"K, Oguma goes to Armor Knight in C3, promotes early, then forever takes little to no damage despite having low Spd".

Maybe, but then Armor Knight has little utility until after they're leveled up.

Stuff like Hunter -> Whatever has a better chance of raising Oguma, than the originally suggested Fighter or emphasis on Oguma's earlygame.

Any female class unit can do this (and Jeigan). Fort respawns also aren't frequent. For example C10 they spawn from the entrance. Then some forts are clumped together such as C8s.

Doesn't matter. If blocking the fort is a superior answer than getting herself killed, then she should most certainly do so.

The same also applies to Marth but you don't see me suddenly hyping that.

That's because Rapier isn't boasting 8 Mt and isn't given to a unit that can consistently double everything on the map. The reason you're not hyping Marth for this is because Marth actually can't kill 1:1 even with Rapier. Edited August 11, 2009 by Rody

[Colonel M]

You're overrating the Wing Spear useage issue so much. Already some chapters she doesn't need it (namely axe filled ones where she isn't getting damage bonus from it, and would rather chuck Javelins), and even if she runs out of uses she'll have gained enough EXP to use other Lances anyway, and Ch. 8 is not a long time.

It's her best weapon in her earlier chapters. It allows her to double on Pirates while the Javelin weighs her down and the Iron Lance has a meh-ish damage output. Why NOT use it then? There are some instances where it won't always be used, but saying it won't ever be used when it's one of her best weapons is a foolish claim. The issue still stands: limited usage is still prominent and cannot be ignored. It's going to run out and then she's stuck pulling out Javelins for chip damage so she isn't so much in the way.

Maybe, but then Armor Knight has little utility until after they're leveled up.

I don't remember Archers and Horseman! being able to be taken on so easy. Armor Knights at least give slight leverage to it.

Stuff like Hunter -> Whatever has a better chance of raising Oguma, than the originally suggested Fighter or emphasis on Oguma's earlygame.

What!?!

Hunter barely gets a chance of doubling and you're stuck with single chip damage. Bows aren't exactly the best and then we have to worry about the lack of 1 range. Just because Hunter -> General is a decent setup doesn't mean it's the ultimatum.

I still don't get why Oguma's earlygame is just being tossed aside. It's frigging ridiculous and saying the Wing Spear suddenly is more useful suggests that she's being kept in one class and one class only: Pegasus Knight. Then what happens when Oguma gets Armorslayer and at least bashes on Armor Knights? When the Silver Sword exists and he still pulls 2RKOes at a fairly constant rate? Or even the Wyrmslayer and capable of damaging the Mamkutes? I understand that utility is awesome and all, but in the cases of her placement the emphasis should be on her Mage setup - not the Wing Spear itself.

Doesn't matter. If blocking the fort is a superior answer than getting herself killed, then she should most certainly do so.

The problem is it isn't. In some instances it can work. In others it cannot at all. C8 is the prime example to this and still solidly stands. Only in some instances where the forts be seperate from each other and less than 2 people spawn from them.

That's because Rapier isn't boasting 8 Mt and isn't given to a unit that can consistently double everything on the map. The reason you're not hyping Marth for this is because Marth actually can't kill 1:1 even with Rapier.

Most of the time it still has about effective Mt. 15 damage is still ~50% of the Cavalier's HP and still better than many other units. Devil Axe can do more and so can Ridersbane. If we even hint toward forging Mt on the Wing Spear there is little problem to adding it on the Rapier as well. We get the point she doubles. The question still stands if we're putting more emphasis on Mage or putting it in the Wing Spear? If it's the former, fine. If it's the latter, there's still the point of Oguma not needing major training just to be decent chip damage since doubling isn't a major issue for him with a few levels.

[Rodykitty]

Why NOT use it then?

So you can save it for when its damage output is at its peak. Maybe you'll get a few kills with it, but its main purpose is for armors/horses.

The issue still stands: limited usage is still prominent and cannot be ignored.

Gosh dangit, you can freaking buy another one, and even if there is a period where she's run out of uses, it's a very short period. My own use of Pegsus Sheeda and Wing Spear didn't even use up the whole 28 uses in my playthrough by the time I ditched her (which was IIRC around Ch. 14 or so).

I still don't get why Oguma's earlygame is just being tossed aside

Because it's not outweighing Sheeda's utility.

I don't remember Archers and Horseman! being able to be taken on so easy. Armor Knights at least give slight leverage to it.

Horsemen are pretty situational. Archers, I'll give you that, but archers are typically a joke individually.

It's frigging ridiculous and saying the Wing Spear suddenly is more useful suggests that she's being kept in one class and one class only: Pegasus Knight.

When used as utility, yes, but Mage is another option. An option that's still pretty freaking good due to high speeds and as a result high damage potential, especially in weakening bosses. Yes, maybe Oguma is overall better than Mage Sheeda, but then Sheeda's utility on top of being an excellent Mage will put her higher on the tier list.

Most of the time it still has about effective Mt. 15 damage is still ~50% of the Cavalier's HP

Factor in Defense and Marth's strength and a lot of times it's a 3RKO in the early game. This doesn't change unless Rapier is forged.

Then what happens when Oguma gets Armorslayer and at least bashes on Armor Knights?

Then Oguma will be able to rape every single horse unit in the game because of the Armor Slayer's awesome effective damage against Social Knights and Paladins. Edited August 11, 2009 by Rody

[Colonel M]

So you can save it for when its damage output is at its peak. Maybe you'll get a few kills with it, but its main purpose is for armors/horses.

That still doesn't mean it isn't going to be used. I even used it on the occassion since it is much more powerful than the Iron Lance and it offered a boost to the damage output on these guys.

Gosh dangit, you can freaking buy another one, and even if there is a period where she's run out of uses, it's a very short period. My own use of Pegsus Sheeda and Wing Spear didn't even use up the whole 28 uses in my playthrough by the time I ditched her (which was IIRC around Ch. 14 or so).

Allow me to re-emphasize.

28 uses.

9 chapters.

More than 3 Cavs in many chapters.

Then when Cavs don't exist what does she do? Sit and twiddle her thumbs?

Because it's not outweighing Sheeda's utility.

Agian, how? Perhaps I need to re-ingrain why Oguma is the best character in the chapters that he is in:

C2: Can double some Pirates and only real unit that can match him is Silver Lance!Jeigan or Rapier / Wing Spear Shiida on the 2 Cavs. He even has a decent Avoid rate on these guys thanks to WTA and using the terrain to a slight advantage.

The C2 boss has a grand total of 12 AS, sometimes 11 if you "abuse" the game and reset a couple of times. That doubles everyone but:

- Oguma

- Barst

- Cord

- Sometimes Bord

- Sometimes Jeigan

- Shiida (though IIRC she gets OHKOed)

That's not a lot of options. Barst and Cord don't have very good hit rates and Bord isn't writing a whole lot in his diary either. Jeigan is okay with the Silver Lance but it can still get knocked down quite a bit.

In C3 Oguma can hide in the mountains and face slightly less frightening hit rates than most units. Then we have the boss. Again, it would either take Navarre a semi-lucky level up just to COMPARE to Oguma. Oguma doesn't even require a single level up to take him on. Him and Navarre with Iron Sword or a level up with +Str or Spd and carrying the Killing Edge are the only two units not to be doubled. That should say something right there.

In this scenario, Oguma still sported utility. Utility that was difficult to match.

C5 he can still be decent since he can pull 2RKOes on Cavs which is only seen by the likes of Shiida w/Wing Spear, Marth w/Rapier (maybe forged), Ridersbane Abel, or Devil Axe Barst (Bord looks into AK more than Fighter).

C6X he's one of the best units here. Sitting in the fort he faces little threat by the Pirates and the Mercenaries cannot double him. He's a solid unit here.

Though Oguma does not have the Wing Spear he can still pull off utility in different ways. You make it seem like this:

Shiida's utility

-

-

-

-

-

-

Oguma's utility

When in reality it's not so frigging huge.

Horsemen are pretty situational. Archers, I'll give you that, but archers are typically a joke individually.

Archers still damage units. Pegasus Knight!Shiida hates them even more. Any Pegasus Knight does. Horseman aren't "situational" either since they still are somewhat common. There are also Thieves, Mercenaries, sometimes Sword Cavs can apply too.

When used as utility, yes, but Mage is another option. An option that's still pretty freaking good due to high speeds and as a result high damage potential, especially in weakening bosses. Yes, maybe Oguma is overall better than Mage Sheeda, but then Sheeda's utility on top of being an excellent Mage will put her higher on the tier list.

*Facedesk*. No. Not. At. All.

Oguma has durability, which Shiida lacks. 1-2 range isn't always going to be the answer either. Oguma still has utility too, still something that's being swept under the table for some apparent reason. Then I showed that Merc!Oguma is still doing well and even after that Hero!Oguma is still pulling decent numbers on the table.

Factor in Defense and Marth's strength and a lot of times it's a 3RKO in the early game. This doesn't change unless Rapier is forged.

It's better than the slightly weaker damage output that some like Darros or others are pulling. Rapier!Marth 3RKOing almost seems like a miracle.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

That still doesn't mean it isn't going to be used.

Actually, it does to an extent, unless it's necessary to get a teammate out of a bind. The only real benefit of her using wing spear when it's unnecessary is giving her level ups, which we don't care about if we're using her as utility.

Then when Cavs don't exist what does she do? Sit and twiddle her thumbs?

Yeah. Nobody is really gaining anything by Sheeda always trying to do something when she doesn't need to.

Shiida's utility

-

-

-

-

-

-

Oguma's utility

When in reality it's not so frigging huge.

I never attempted to imply a huge gap, but what I do imply is that Sheeda's Wing Spear utility is enough to make Oguma's early game utility not an auto-matic win compared to her.

Horseman aren't "situational" either since they still are somewhat common.

Like... Six, maybe 8 in the first ten chapters. By the time Horsemen are beginning to get common we're no longer talking about Armor Knights, but Generals.

It's better than the slightly weaker damage output that some like Darros or others are pulling. Rapier!Marth 3RKOing almost seems like a miracle.

Sheeda 1RKO'ing is a miracle.

Oguma has durability, which Shiida lacks. 1-2 range isn't always going to be the answer either. Oguma still has utility too, still something that's being swept under the table for some apparent reason. Then I showed that Merc!Oguma is still doing well and even after that Hero!Oguma is still pulling decent numbers on the table.

I think killing ability is extremely valuable on H5, because it improves everyone's durability, not just the character doing the killing, just as a tank is improving everybody's ability to kill. The fact that Sheeda makes a decent mage means that she has range, thus can take more opportunities to score hits on enemies, and access to powerful tomes eventually helps her case (if trained as Mage, she trades early game Wing Spear utility for later game offense).

Oh yeah, the main reason Sheeda shot up so high is because some people were convinced she could actually take a hit even as Sage, something Merric is known to do as Sage. She's probably not getting doubled during the Mage stage either.

[Colonel M]

Have I suddenly fallen under deaf ears?

I see her being ORKOed by Silver quite commonly. Let's not even discuss Braves for that matter. Mage -> Sage btw.

[Rodykitty]

Mage -> Sage (assuming she's trained since Lv. 1 for simplicity's sake) nets her 27 HP and 5 Def at 20/1. She'll barely survive a hit from an enemy that has 30 Atk (and that's not any that isn't a Mamkute). Unfortunately she can't really say the same about braves, though she still has existing player phase and she can still counter attack Javelins.

[grandjackal]

I must be losing my mind. I can't think of any other changes the list could be made, so now I'm thinking craziness, like Sorcerer Zagaro.

...How quick you guys think Zag could get to level 5, considering he's got staffs to help him out?

[Rodykitty]

ZAGARO IS ALREADY AT THE TOP OF THE TIER LIST.

[grandjackal]

That's why I said I swear I'm losing my mind. It's as if I want him to go higher...But he can't!

[Colonel M]

Mage -> Sage (assuming she's trained since Lv. 1 for simplicity's sake) nets her 27 HP and 5 Def at 20/1. She'll barely survive a hit from an enemy that has 30 Atk (and that's not any that isn't a Mamkute). Unfortunately she can't really say the same about braves, though she still has existing player phase and she can still counter attack Javelins.

...Do you see 20/1 as a possibility by C10 even? I'm not talking about Sage at that point, I'm talking about MAGE being ORKOed quite often at that point. Now you have a second issue too: she can be ORKOed that much earlier in her Mage status unless she's pumping major levels and doubling is a bit more difficult. There's a reason why I highly advocate the slight use of Pegasi since there's no reclass option anyway. I understand it was a hypothetical point.

---

The other discussion is going on but something else I wanted to look into for a while: Samson going up. He can still double the unpromoted units and coming in with a B Rank in Axes means he's pretty good for the time being. C20 on he's pretty useless, but beforehand he's not doing so bad. Not some miraculous jump to Lower Mid but... at least better than Astram and maybe Midia.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

I'm kind of wondering why Dolph is higher then Roger? Dolph has a laughable start. He has 13 Mt and 11 AS when class swapped to Hunter. So in 12x he either tinks or 19RKOs Armors, 7-9RKOs Cavaliers, 5RKOs Archers (and gets 2RKO'd back), ORKO's some Mages and 2RKOs others, 37RKOs Mamkutes, 7RKO's the Sniper (and gets ORKO'd back), and 9RKOs the boss. This is absolutely pathetic, I have no idea how a unit who starts off this bad got to Upper Mid in the first place. Considering somebody like Cord (who is only a tier higher) is ORKOing almost all of these guys....

Its going to take him forever to level up, and a sufficient amount of babying.

Edited August 11, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Woah woah woah... how DID that happen? As far as Roger dropping below all those characters?

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I think linde/palla need to be closer considering there base stats/joining time. Linde can go archer early on in order to improve her AS (this applies to merric as well) and then she can reclass back to mage (thanks to aura the lack of mag will not hurt as much early on) once she has the stats needed to double. She should be leveling up pretty quickly as well faster than as a priest thanks to the higher enemy levels. 10 level ups as a archer would grant her a single point to strength and 5 more speed which would improve her AS by 6 as long as she wields only 1 weight tomes. Upon promotion she will be able to wield most tomes with no AS loss thanks to the +2 strength base. Even though linde sucks as a archer she can always take a forged iron bow early and once she is done leveling alot of other units like Palla/Minerva can make use of it.

Edit: Thought I'd provide some more information.

Linde loses 4 points to mag for going archer instead of mage for the first 10 level ups. She should gain 1 mag in 10 levels as an archer.

Linde has a base speed of 4 and has a 50 speed growth as an archer/Palla has a base speed of 6 and a 30 speed growth as an archer. Not counting class bases.

Linde joins in chapter 11/Palla joins in chapter 14 with 3 chapters in between them.

Linde is level 1/Palla is level 8.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Lancelot

[Don Draper]

I'm convinced that Dolph shouldn't even be in Upper Mid. He's a liability in his beginning chapters, and its not like he's gaining tons of experience for being underlevelled. All the non-promoted enemies (promoted enemies ORKO him) have levels around 5-7 in 12x. Chapter 13, he's doing about 1-2 damage to the shooters, and again being a liability. Even if we make an insanely optimistic estimate of 1.5 levels a chapter for him, he's around Level 13 by Chapter 16. 19 Mt and 16 AS with a Steel Bow. 3RKOs Horsemen, Can't even ORKO Wyverns which he's effective against, 5RKOs the Hero, 2RKOs Cavaliers, 5RKOs Paladins, and 3RKOs Generals. A LEVEL 13 MYRMIDON NAVARRE HAS 20 MT and 16 AS WITH A SILVER SWORD, AND THATS ASSUMING NO WEAPON RANK BONUSES! I could of had a Level 13 Navarre in Chapter 9 and I believe Navarre was in Lower Mid when it was assumed that he was a myrmidon.

And just to add insult to injury

13/0 Radd

21 Mt (Silver Sword, no rank bonus), 15 AS

No enemies have 12 AS (only more or less), so Radd is superior offensively to Dolph right now! And he's better defensively! Radd has 1 more HP and Def point then Dolph!

A character that requires this much babying, and doesn't even become good until around Chapter 20 (Which was still assuming 1.5 levels a chapter...lol) where there are only about 5 chapters left anyways shouldn't be in Upper Mid. Period.

Edited August 11, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

...Do you see 20/1 as a possibility by C10 even? I'm not talking about Sage at that point, I'm talking about MAGE being ORKOed quite often at that point. Now you have a second issue too: she can be ORKOed that much earlier in her Mage status unless she's pumping major levels and doubling is a bit more difficult. There's a reason why I highly advocate the slight use of Pegasi since there's no reclass option anyway. I understand it was a hypothetical point.

You know that Merric suffers the exact same problem right? If not worse off? He's pretty reliant on Cleric to be so high up just as Sheeda isn't high for Mage alone.

RE: Linde. Paola joins right before a chapter designed for Pegasi. Linde can't really say the same thing, overly reliant on the now obsolete Cleric class to get level ups. Going Archer of all things for speed is just going to kill whatever utility she had, and E in bows in a class that barely has Str on an underleveled character is pretty... Bad.

RE: Dolph. Done.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

^But by going archer early on I can maximize her combat potential and give her the speed/strength she needs to double asap and give her the levels to gain some mag as well asap so she is doing better for the rest of the game. Alot of units have sucky startup times. This is possibly her quickest way to get out of that suck. She actually gains more mag as a archer and then reclassing back into mage than she does as a cleric.

But I know she does indeed blow as an archer. She would have to be fed kills even with the forge.

So I rewent back and looked at the stats and I will propose this instead. What if linde went mage in the beginning when she first joins and the moment aura reaches 1 use left she reclasses to cleric and uses the stave experience to reach promotion quickly and build ranks as well as speed. Once she is promoted she can then take advantage of the sniper class which has auto C rank bows and very nice bases for the first few levelups to gain any speed she might need to double before reclassing back to sage for the rest of the game.

I doubt shiida will have even a C in tomes by that point of the game due to how useful the wing spear is... and there is no one else really aside from shiida that is ever really using that tome. So if shiida never goes mage then that tome is completely linde's to abuse.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

^But by going archer early on

Really bad idea... it's so much worse than babying her as a mage that Archer Linde should be a banned suggestion. The only enemies she can really damage would be Mages and they're easier to kill than they are to keep alive to feed for others. 10 ATK that targets DEF on C12 ain't doing much.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Sirius

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

^But by going archer early on

Really bad idea... it's so much worse than babying her as a mage that Archer Linde should be a banned suggestion. The only enemies she can really damage would be Mages and they're easier to kill than they are to keep alive to feed for others. 10 ATK that targets DEF on C12 ain't doing much.

I said she needs a forge... And well some idea's sound better on paper than they are in real life.

Just put Archer!Linde in the same tier as Berzerker!Etzel.

Linde should be higher than bantu though. All he has is an early game. Or he needs to fall beneath her.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Lancelot

[Rodykitty]

Uhh... Aura will probably be stronger than forges. Forged Iron Bow is only 15 Mt... Max. Aura is 18 Mt on its own and hitting Res.