H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Dolph was one of those rare instances.

Of what? IOS is probably the first instance of statistical evidence I really seen of this guy.

Also, I haven't come up with an argument for Catria, so Dolph > her again. I have a feeling this is wrong, but I won't be the one that has the ability to prove it.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Rody

[Don Draper]

I'm sorry, but what? Why did you put Catria behind Dolph for no reason? Did I not say that this list is never going to be stable if people just make these changes with no evidence? For reasons why Catria is better then Dolph, read my Palla vs. Dolph argument and realize that Palla and Catria are pretty much the same starting out (Caria just has one less strength then her). Catria takes a bit to get to B Lances, but she has Ridersbane, so who cares? Then realize that Dolph NEVER wins against her. Not even after promotion:

Dolph 20/1: 40 HP, 17 Str, 23 Spd, 12 Def

Catria 20/1 Peg->Sniper: 38 HP, 17 Str, 22 Spd, 14 Def

Growths:

Dolph: 70 HP, 35 Str, 50 Spd, 20 Def

Catria: 70 HP, 45 Str, 70 Spd, 25 Def

Can you name a SINGLE chapter where Dolph is beating Catria? If you say Chapter 14, I'm going to flip because once again: here's how he does:

Dolph 7/0: 27 HP, 15 Atk, 13 AS, 6 Def

Archers: Dolph 4 or 5RKOs them. 2RKO Dolph

Cavs: Dolph 7 or 8RKOs the Cavs. 2RKO'd

Sniper: Dolph 6RKOs them. 2RKO'd

Armor 7: Dolph 7RKOs them. Gets 2RKO'd

Armor 11: Dolph 11RKOs them. Get 2RKO'd

Thieves: Dolph 3RKOs them. Gets ORKO'd

And if you even think about saying "B2BD had him at Level 10" I'm going to flip, because he admitted that he would sacrifice turncount to give him stupid favoritism crap like letting him kill priests. Its not like 10/0 Dolph is even doing much better.

So no, Catria>Dolph by a mile

And if generics just use class base stats, then how is one generic different then another if they can just class swap? I really do not think they should be on the list or we should include the unpromoted as well (although I'd prefer to just get rid of them).

Edited August 15, 2009 by IOS

[Quasar]

Actually instead of having every class tiered it might make more sense to only have Promoted Male A Generic, Promoted Male B Generic and Promoted Female Generic.

Edit: Looks like IOS beat me to this. Oh well.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Quasar

[Rodykitty]

Why did you put Catria behind Dolph for no reason?

It was not for no reason. I lost an argument with Colonel M on MSN. Then again, I was also arguing that she also promoted early and we argued late game chapters, but still, it shown me that she wasn't killing much more than he was assuming she was given reasonable amounts of EXP and not reinforcement farming.

That is me though. You may have a stronger argument.

Actually instead of having every class tiered it might make more sense to only have Promoted Male A Generic, Promoted Male B Generic and Promoted Female Generic.

This is pretty good, and a very valid solution. Edited August 15, 2009 by Rody

[Don Draper]

Just, sorry if I've been a little aggressive about the whole tier thing. I don't really post (or game for that matter) too often, so I'm not really even used to debating so I guess I need to learn to just chill a little bit when arguing :D

[Rodykitty]

Usually if I make an odd or hasty decision, it's me conceding to someone else's argument to prevent myself from being closed minded as much as possible.

[Colonel M]

When Chainey and I were arguing never once did I mention Fighter!Dolph. I always used Hunter->General because it is his best route. I only slightly conceded to Catria because her earlygame isn't... as crippling, perse. Her capability of using the Ridersbane was the thing that made me a bit more convinced, but I tried to at least point out that 6 levels was all Dolph needed and he still had instances such as C14's Pegasi and C15 with the Mages and DracoKnights. By C14 I could've clearly seen a D Rank in Bows so he should be 2RKOing the Pegasi at worst.

Before I get tossed the whole "I'm giving favoritism to Dolph because I have to wait for Pegasi", I'm doing nearly the same for Catria since she, too, needs some amount of favoritism in areas. She can't exactly walk into the next chapter without the help of Pure Water / levelups and many of the units will be gone at that point. She's also very reliant on that Killer Lance for damage as using just about anything else drops her AS.

It's that after promotion the thing it would be is General!Dolph's tankiness versus Catria's... versatility, shall we ssay. C20 and C23 she could've went toward Paladin, but then again that was also tarnishing the Axe rank that she was building up (C20 at least) and she couuld succomb to a 2RKO on braves. Yes, I was using statistical evidence as well: for most of my arguments here I at least attempt to show it. In fact, it was one of the main reasons why I thought Minerva should be a bit higher and, unfortunately, Roger and others should go down a bit.

Still, I thought that we assumed a little bit of leniency here, though I guess it did pull slightly a double standard toward a unit such as Radd (though he's still shit, trust me). Early promotion could save some of the later joining units (Athena builds an Axe rank, Roger hits doubling that much faster, etc).

[Don Draper]

I'd like to see some direct character comparisons please. How they do in relation to the enemy? We already know Catria absolutely dominates jointime, so Dolph better win lategame by a freaking mile.

To be more specific: "Show your work" please, as I'm sure you've heard all through school.

Edited August 15, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

We already know Catria absolutely dominates jointime

Doubtful. She's not one rounding Mages on Ch. 15, and they two round her even if she uses Pure Water as Pegasus.

Then there are Dragon Knights running around.

The reason we think Catria dominates join time is because we all keep giving her favortism every playthrough. I am guilty of this mindset myself.

[Colonel M]

We'll use C15 as the prime example since I'd say that's a bit more safe. Katua gets her two levels, Dolph gets... I'll say 4.

Dolph - 24.2 HP | 9.4 Str | 9.5 Skl | 13.0 Spd | 3.4 Luck | 6.1 Def | 0.0 Res

Steel Bow - 17 Atk

Katua - 21.2 HP | 6.9 Str | 8.6 Skl | 14.3 Spd | 7.8 Luck | 8.5 Def | 6.1 Res

Killer Lance - 16 Atk, 14 AS

Javelin - 14 Atk, 13 AS

Steel Lance - forget it. Let's say her AS drops to about 11. Might as well use the Killer Lance

Mage 5:

24 HP

25 atk

82 hit

5 AS

3 def

4 res

Mage 7:

24 HP

25 (26) atk

82 (83) hit

5 (6) AS

3 (4) def

4 res

Mage 9:

25 HP

26 atk

82 (83) hit

6 AS

3 (4) def

5 res

All of these are ORKOed by Dolph with his Steel Bow. Now the quesiton is Katua? Nope. I'm dead serious she can't do it with her Javelin. So her Killer Lance? She can actually miss the Level 9 Mage. Now defensively Katua barely survives and yes I will say Dolph doesn't do as well. The Pure Water can actually solve the problem easily though. Katua, if she didn't get her level ups, can't survive some of them.

29 HP

23 atk [wtf, why is this LOWER than mages?]

82 hit

6 AS

3 def [...]

9 res

Dolph needs a level up and he can ORKO these, assuming the Str point rounds up.

Wyvern:

39 (40) HP

25 (26) atk

102 (103) hit

15 AS

10 (11) def

3 (4) res

Dolph can 2RKO these. Good luck Katua!

I assumed the following:

C12X: 1 Level as a Hunter

C13: 1 Level as an Armor Knight

C14: 2 Levels (cmon, he IS underleveled)

So I did penalize him for his underwhelmingness in the first two chapters. If Pure Water was an option, I could've attempted to squeeze another level in on C12 but I just made it a scratchout.

C16, 2 levels for Dolph, 3 for Katua:

Dolph (Lv 10) - 25.2 HP | 10.1 Str | 10.2 Skl | 14.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 6.5 Def | 0.0 Res

Steel Bow 18 (19 maybe, seeing a C rank in the middle I'd say is semi-likely)

Katua (Lv 8) - 23.0 HP | 8.3 Str | 11.0 Skl | 16.3 Spd | 9.0 Luck | 9.3 Def | 6.3 Res

Killer Lance - 18 Atk

Javelin - 16 Atk

Ridersbane (w/effective) - 33 Atk

The Silver Lance is a bit closer but eh... I won't assume it just yet.

Alright, where Dolph where get a magic level up IFFFFF he doesn't get 3 Levels: the Wyvern Knights. This case he'd double the Cavs at least.

Now I will admit she does win on the Paladin, but Dolph wins on the DracoKnights. He can 2RKO most of the Cavs. If he does get his level up and the C Rank he can 2RKO that Cav as well. Alright, so he would lose. Now if he DOES promote:

35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

Ridersbane: 36 Atk

Silver Lance: 25 Atk

Javelin: 19 Atk

Now if this scenario happens, Dolph will have the following happen.

- Horseman 4-5RKO

- Hero 3RKOes. The Levin one admittidely 2RKOes.

- Cavs 4-5RKO. Paladin as well.

- DOES miss on doubling the General.

So my homework would assume if both got early promotions (Katua would be guaranteed to promote next chapter). I can't type much more at the moment, but this will have to suffice for now.

[Don Draper]

I'll respond properly soon, but you're saying Dolph is getting D bows in two chapters, which is NOT happening with his early doubling issues. I'll provide a proper counter soon, but that completely throws off your C15 analysis

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Again, whether you double or not does not make a difference in how much WEXP you get.

[Colonel M]

Again, whether you double or not does not make a difference in how much WEXP you get.

This. He has two chapters and needs to enter battle (as in Player Phase) 15 times. Not that difficult if you ask me.

[Dat Nick]

Doubtful. She's not one rounding Mages on Ch. 15, and they two round her even if she uses Pure Water as Pegasus.

In her defense, it's pretty much the same story with everybody else not named Merric/Lena/Riff/whatever since lolRes and whatnot.

In fact, 15 WEXP would be even easier to gain as Hunter due to not getting countered and stuff like that: And there's also fliers Dolph can deal heavy damage against.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[Colonel M]

Man I'm so mad. I was looking at if I held back on levels with Castor and if he could be slightly better around C20.

10/16 Castor's Def: 24.15

The problem is I'm assuming he holds back on levels, early promo (like Darros would), then it would take almost 1.45 levels in order to reach that. In his defense, he could still be level 14 after promotion which throws him with 41.6 HP | 23.25 Def (1.2 levels per chapter). Even though he's doubled you must admit that's pretty fucking awesome. He's so close to being a Darros.

Just thought I'd share. Maybe I'll put more info toward it because with his earlygame utility maybe it's possible to see Castor > Darros. Then again we have to resolve this Dolph vs. Katua issue so it'll have to wait. ;_;

[Rodykitty]

In her defense, it's pretty much the same story with everybody else not named Merric/Lena/Riff/whatever since lolRes and whatnot.

This also applies to Dolph, which is the thing. Catria's not really having much of an advantage in this area.

[Rodykitty]

I just received a giant wall of text as a PM, I think spans about three Harry Potter books.

Sigh, better get reading.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Rody

[Rodykitty]

tl;dr version

- Triangle Attack = Aura & Excalibur

- Triangle Attack > Bantu & Linda

- Helping Funds rank

- We can warp three units to kill a boss. One of them isn't Marth

- Good players should know how to use the Triangle Attack, etc

- Paola has the highest attack power of the Pegasus Knights, so having trouble doubling isn't an issue

- If Paola gets an Energy Drop...

- Thanks to Spirit Dusts/Forges...

- Valuable chip damage

- Disagree with Pegasus Knights getting stat boosters as favortism

- Comparison to Laguz in Radiant Dawn, or another interpretation being comparison to how tier lists are handled for FE9/10

- Different tier listings for Pegaus Knights based on whether they're all deployed or not

I won't name names, but...

When you're trying to argue Est... This is not how you do it. Look, I can do better than this. All I have to say is, "Est allowing OHKO's may actually be better than Lawrence just doing chip damage and getting killed by everything and even having worse availability." That single sentence is a stronger argument than the entire wall of china text I received in PM.

And let's ignore Bantu's tanking abilities that he needs no EXP for. Let's also ignore that Linda is pretty much Est with superior join time so she can actually get leveled up, albeit difficultly, for the lategame, unlike Est.

[Colonel M]

- Thanks to Spirit Dusts...

Someone please explain how this works.

(Wants to read this novel). Also:

"Est allowing OHKO's may actually be better than Arran just doing chip damage and getting killed by everything and barely having better availability." Hehe...

Edited August 17, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

- Helping Funds rank

or lack thereof

which should have been obvious

I don't see how they help either way

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Nevermind this post, I completely forgot that Arran is actually worse than Lorenz.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

So Shooters get an EXP boost.

Discuss.

[Rodykitty]

I think everyone has known this for awhile. =|

It certainly means they can score a level up without actually killing though.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Rody

[Colonel M]

K, this is going to be difficult, but I'm going to try it: Castor > Horace.

Both have different kinds of utility. While Horace doesn't require massive training to be good for a short time, Castor has his Bows helping his teammates out. Everyone isn't very accurate with 1-2 range even after Fighters dissapear so they appreciate Castor and his Steel Bow use. Now he has different chapters where he's useful such as C5 with Pegasi, C7 with Pegasi and Dracos, and then C10 with their abundant fliers. So I'm going to suggest that Castor here is a little bit underleved. Instead of 1.2 levels per chapter he's only getting 1. That's only 9 levels, nothing difficult to ask for. In fact, he can still be slightly undereleveled. This puts Castor at Level 12 for C11. Now, assume that he gets his promotion:

34.6 HP | 12.6 Str | 5.6 Skl | 7.6 Spd | 4.8 Luck | 17.8 Def | 3.0 Res

This is perfect for him. (General btw). In C12 he cannot be doubled by any Cavaliers which accomodates his "slightly" lower Def. Sure he may not look like he's impressive, but take a 26 Atk Cav. If he gets his 18 Def (.2 difference) they 5RKO him. See? Though he's not immune to things he's still being helpful. Then like Horace he builds some use of being a tank like in C13 when things start to get dangerous and he can at least recieve a DracoKnight or two in C15 despite the desert (they'll likely approach the team) and such. One difference is Castor can be useful in C20 in comparison to Horace.

I can show more statistical evidence for like chapter-by-chapter when Horace joins (and my Def that I set for Castor is slightly off now); however, it's slightly difficult to throw statistical evidence against a utility unit.

[Rodykitty]

I want to say, while Kashim has utility, if he doesn't get fed level ups (counter acting utility), his utility fades very, very quickly (I know this because it's precisely what happened to me). I think it's time we accept Kashim as just a normal unit that wants to be babied.

Also, we need to start basing level progression on character performance again.