H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

Eh, even so his Bows are prime to be useful. 1 Level per chapter isn't very ludicrous either and it can be leviated a bit if you think that he's doing bad in a chapter (I can't think of one where he does deplorable but maybe others will). Nevertheless though he is a unit that wants to be babied a bit it isn't so extreme in comparison to people that are below him. Even so, I estimate with C15 a scratchout and he promoted starting in C11 he should be roughly 12/10 with the 1 level system.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

1 level per chapter actually does sound like a stretch. For one, it's a static number (something I've decided I want to avoid from now on), and two, he's 3, maybe 4RKO'ing stuff with steel (I tested a couple of days ago, but didn't save the information, but Kashim gets 15 Atk), and his forced moments are shared by Gordon and Hand Axers.

I do need someone to speak on behalf of Horace though.

[Colonel M]

Remember that no one is really pulling awesome numbers against certain enemies. Gordin has 2 less Atk when he's using the Steel Bow (unless he got VERY lucky in his level ups). Here's the goal (and I'm not kidding): Level 10 by C10, C12 at the latest. I at least got B2BD to agree with me on Castor > Horace unless he has changed his mind. Yes though, I'd like to hear someone's side on Horace as well.

Base Castor: 15 Atk

Level 4 Abel: 14 Atk

Level 4 Barst: 19 Atk

Level 4 Cain: 15 Atk

Cord: 16 Atk

This is 1-2 Range by the by, so Castor can at least compare to his teammates. Barst is the only one who can really school him.

Also Hunter -> General is the new Fighter -> Hero, I swear to God even Roger can pull this crap off. Though IMO he's a bit better with the Fighter setup (lol, need a Speedwing to double isn't all that bad tbh).

Edited August 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

If ThunderMan wants to defend Horace, he needs to do so because I just dropped Horace. I'm still not too privvy about the hype atmosphere here, though (inb4attempttojustifyhype).

Also, if negative utility is much more of a hindrence if it comes before the positive and not after, then why is Linde > Gordon?

EDIT: Answered my own question on Matthis in my head, but it still leaves Linde.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

Base Castor: 15 Atk

Level 4 Abel: 14 Atk

Level 4 Barst: 19 Atk

Level 4 Cain: 15 Atk

Cord: 16 Atk

In fact, let's elaborate.

Castor: 40 str growth

Abel: 40 str growth

Cain: 35 str growth

Cord: 50 str growth

Barst: 40 str growth

So Castor even stays even with these guys for a good portion of the game: Heck, he doesn't even lose to them in AS that badly [2 levels higher and 1 lower base=big whoop] This taken into combination with being your best earlygame source of chip damage not named Bord/Barst [He has better ATK than Jagen with javelin], I'm really having difficulty seeing how Castor becomes a detriment pre-C10.

[Colonel M]

I'm not trying to hype all over the place. Just saying it's a good setup.

I'd estimate that Castor is about 12/3 by the time Horace joins. Here's what we got:

Castor - 35.8 HP | 13.3 Str | 6.3 Skl | 7.9 Spd | 5.2 Luck | 18.7 Def | 3.0 Res

Horace - 32 HP | 15 Str | 12 Skl | 8 Spd | 7 Luck | 17 Def | 3 Res

He's slightly more durable than Horace here. Not by a whole lot, but it's the point. Horace beats him in Skl and Luck which are somewhat useless and Str by 2. Then again both are going to be using Ridersbane anyway (for Castor yes he doesn't have the Silver Lance but has the Bow to slightly accomodate it).

If you really want me to do a chapter-by-chapter comparison with the two please just ask. I have no issues with it.

[Rodykitty]

(inb4attempttojustifyhype).

I'm not trying to hype all over the place. Just saying it's a good setup.

And I already conceded.

[Colonel M]

K.

With Linde... I don't know. See the problem with her is that she needs to pummel levels in as fast as she can in order to be stable. I guess we can face the fact that she won't survive a Brave assualt... but I remember the argument for Gordin > Linde being Gordin's utility as an Archer earlygame and Curate to make it longer.

[Rodykitty]

Hmm, I think I was the one that wanted Linde > Gordon just to be fair to Linde fans, but now that we know they don't exist, I'm going to undo this.

Oh, and I just shoved some people into Mid Tier.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Rody

[Mekkah]

Generics are a lost cause to tier imo...I said it on MSN so I'll just copypaste it:

here's how you would tier a generic if you want to treat him like a normal unit

comparing it to, say, cain

cain: joins in ch1 as a L1 cav with D swords and E lances

generic merc: joins anywhere between ch1 and wherever promoted generics start coming, if you have less than the deployment maximum amount of units alive. has only a .2 * .33 chance of actually joining you (in other cases another generic joins). joins at a level and weapon level that increases the later the chapter occurs (i think it's just 1 per chapter but not sure).

and then you'd either have to tie him on the overall average of his possible performance between ch3 and whenever he can stop occurring

tier him*

never mind that he has the possibility to reclass for horseman and keep his sword weapon level

provided he promotes

then there's the question whether if one of your merc generics dies, and you get a new sword generic, whether that's the same guy or not

etc etc

this is how it'd be technically correct

but it's a load of useless bull

[dondon151]

So Castor even stays even with these guys for a good portion of the game:

I wouldn't quite say he's even; he levels up a little slower because he attacks once per turn and his kills are competed for while other melee units can counter once on enemy phase for a little more EXP. He certainly stays close, but I wouldn't quite put him on the same level as those other guys.

Oh yeah, with regard to generics, if we were to take the negative utility deployment slot position, they require you to permanently give up deployment of your 10th, 11th, 12th, etc. best unit (assuming 10 open slots). I'm not totally sure how well generics perform relative to your bad units (do they get weapon rank bonuses? decent bases or growths? supports?), but under this position they would get ranked pretty low.

Edited August 19, 2009 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Level of the generics depends on the level of your team. Killing low level units in your team should generate a higher level for them. They have 0% character growths so it's just class growth for them and some of their main stats can be pretty random (Lv 3 or 6 General with 27 DEF for example).

Oh and yes they do get WEXP, though only for their main weapon and they can come with A rank.

Edited August 19, 2009 by ?!

[Colonel M]

Gordin > Etzel though? Hmm...

Etzel does have some utility to note of. The only problem is he can't use some of the high-powered staves; however, he can pull off Excalibur and Mends fairly well. While limited to its one use, it is the point that he can use it so he builds up some utility both ways (healing and staves). This could be difficult though because Gordin COULD pull some positive utility until... well, yeah.

Also iffy on Wendell > Marf. BTW, Generics could be placed in the very bottom called the "Generic" tier and just place them whatever the order is.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Sorry, I need to learn to read

Edited August 20, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't quite say he's even; he levels up a little slower because he attacks once per turn and his kills are competed for while other melee units can counter once on enemy phase for a little more EXP.

Oh, please: Give it up. I know it was cool to hate bow users 2 or 3 games ago but it's really getting old now.

"Countering on enemy phase"? Who the fick are you actually going to WANT to put into a position where they can counterattack when your entire army is getting 2RKOd, ESPECIALLY at this stage of the game? Enemy phase matters a LOT less in this game because well, nobody that isn't a general has a halfway decent one. Secondly, how in the name of hell does "his kills are competed for" apply ONLY to Kashim? It applies to Abel, it applies to Cain, it applies to Cord, it applies to Zagaro, it applies to Dolph...it applies to everybody. Hay guys, Zag down to mid tier plz, his kills are competed for!

This one extra round a turn would need to equate to like 3 levels just for an extra point of attack over Kashim: Which is totally bullshit, the cavs ONE extra round of enemy phase offense that they get SOME of the time will not stack up to three levels. I'll be amazed if it stacks up to one.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[dondon151]

Oh, please: Give it up. I know it was cool to hate bow users 2 or 3 games ago but it's really getting old now.

Bow users still have the same problems that they always had. I couldn't care less if it's "cool" or "uncool" to hate on bow users.

"Countering on enemy phase"? Who the fick are you actually going to WANT to put into a position where they can counterattack when your entire army is getting 2RKOd, ESPECIALLY at this stage of the game? Enemy phase matters a LOT less in this game because well, nobody that isn't a general has a halfway decent one.

I disagree that enemy phase matters less. Countering one enemy is pretty important. It frees up an extra unit on player phase and it requires one less attacking slot. The fact that Castor can't do this most of the time is a point against him.

Secondly, how in the name of hell does "his kills are competed for" apply ONLY to Kashim? It applies to Abel, it applies to Cain, it applies to Cord, it applies to Zagaro, it applies to Dolph...it applies to everybody. Hay guys, Zag down to mid tier plz, his kills are competed for!

This wasn't what I meant. Kills are competed for, player phase combat is competed for, and enemy phase combat is competed for. Guess which one Castor can't do?

I like it when you misinterpret what I say, then make a big deal out of it. It demonstrates the pinnacle of enlightenment.

This one extra round a turn would need to equate to like 3 levels just for an extra point of attack over Kashim: Which is totally bullshit, the cavs ONE extra round of enemy phase offense that they get SOME of the time will not stack up to three levels. I'll be amazed if it stacks up to one.

One level is equivalent to a higher chance of having more strength or other stats.

[Colonel M]

I think the point B2BD was trying to make is lacking 1 range isn't as penalizing in this situation as it would be in, say, GBA Fire Emblems. Though I find 1-2 range slightly overrated myself and Bow users kind of get their balls kicked due to the lack of counterattacking, there's nothing I can really do on that. Here, though, it is a rare instance where one unit would counterattack on the Enemy Phase since in this game Player Phase means more than the Enemy Phase (this does bar Generals where it is the opposite), so despite Castor lacking the 1 or 1-2 range we can't suddenly say he won't be able to keep up with the team. This doesn't mean I'm totally mocking dondon nor wholeheartedly disagreeing with him.

Just to bring information, he can go toward the Armor Knight career if it's that big of a deal. It's not like being comparable to the team suddenly makes you bad anyway and promotion still maintains the Bow rank.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

I think the point B2BD was trying to make is lacking 1 range isn't as penalizing in this situation as it would be in, say, GBA Fire Emblems. Though I find 1-2 range slightly overrated myself and Bow users kind of get their balls kicked due to the lack of counterattacking, there's nothing I can really do on that. Here, though, it is a rare instance where one unit would counterattack on the Enemy Phase since in this game Player Phase means more than the Enemy Phase (this does bar Generals where it is the opposite), so despite Castor lacking the 1 or 1-2 range we can't suddenly say he won't be able to keep up with the team. This doesn't mean I'm totally mocking dondon nor wholeheartedly disagreeing with him.

I'm well aware that the scale of enemy phase in FEDS is not like FE10 part 4 maps, but that doesn't mean that it's less important. One extra attack means a lot when enemy units are like 3+RKO'd and come at you 3-6 at a time. Also consider that for the enemies whose AI are programmed to attack when a player unit is in range, Castor doesn't have an enemy phase against them either.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with the fact that hunter Castor not having an enemy phase or having slightly less accessibility to EXP makes him (a little) less than comparable to high tier units.

Edited August 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Thing is I'm not disagreeing with you as far as some of the ordeals. However, as I've said: Level 12 is probably the most he needs for his early promotion, Level 10 at the worst. By C10 or C12, either are pretty easy to assume. You'd have to make a rather large exagerration otherwise to dismiss either Level 10 or 12 at either of those points.

[Rodykitty]

I agree that a bow user won't have the same EXP gain as someone that can gain EXP on both the player and enemy phase, but Kashim is already below all of those guys, and the person in question was Horace.

[FionordeQuester]

Um, guys, when your putting all of these units in their spots, what reclassing path are we assuming for all of these units? I don't have any idea of why Cord is so high for example. I'm assuming that it's because of how useful he is at a different class, but the thing is, I don't actually KNOW what that class is. Could you guys maybe post the assumed reclassing path next to each character in parenthesis? That'd do tons of good for me...

[Dat Nick]

I'm assuming that it's because of how useful he is at a different class, but the thing is, I don't actually KNOW what that class is.

fighter>hero>Berserker [When he gets enough spd growth as hero]

at least that's what I do, some likely opt not to use the Berserker

[FionordeQuester]

That was just an example. What I'd really like is some way of figuring out what is generally agreed to be the best reclassing path for each character without having to ask a quistion every time I get a new character that I want to use >_<

[Colonel M]

Consider yourself saved.

[FionordeQuester]

Thanks dude!