H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

I made a mistake yesterday over MSN:

Me: "I have to admit. I have zero faith in Arran and think the Triangle Attack > him."

BB: "Sniper."

Me: "Oh."

The literal difference between Sniper Arran and Archer Est is 2 Str ;;>> Arran's never gonna double anything, and no matter what he'll be slayed by braves. Also note, she not only levels faster, but you don't have to train her to be able to kill bosses with her. Hell, you don't even have to train her at all to have this use.

I'll give her 5 levels (basically 5 kills) as a pegasus, then promote her to sniper.

28 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 16 Speed (enough to double cavs), 13 Luck, 10 Def

Arran needs 6 levels to catch up to HP, 5 levels for Str, 4 for Skill, 6 for Speed, never catches up to Luck, and 10 defense is the best he's ever gonna get. She's STILL leveling a crapton faster than he is. This is just the bare minimum to promote her. 9 levels prior for her to still level fast, she has this.

30 HP, 13 Str, 13 Skill, 19 Speed (doubling paladins), 15 Luck, 10 Def. 1 more level, she can survive a brave assault.

Arran can't possibly meet these standards, and she's STILL leveling faster.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Rodykitty]

The literal difference between Sniper Arran and Archer Est is 2 Str ;;>>

And C Bows, which means the damage output gap is more than 2 points.

[grandjackal]

The literal difference between Sniper Arran and Archer Est is 2 Str ;;>>

And C Bows, which means the damage output gap is more than 2 points.

Look at it this way then.

As paladin-pegasi, they'd both be doubled and killed. Neither would kill in one shot without a bit of help with a slayer weapon. At least Est gets levels faster.

He basically has a bit of relevent bow rank on her, but 5 kills after and she has the same rank. Due to greater leveling speed still (level 1 promote to a level 10 promote), it doesn't take long for her to outperform Arran.

This is also forgoing that if Paula and Katua are around, and they happen to be melee classes, just her presence can kill a boss without error, much less that it could be her doing it as well (though she doesn't HAVE to be the one getting the kill. Rather rediculous on top of it, considering she levels up killing generics as is).

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The literal difference between Sniper Arran and Archer Est is 2 Str ;;>>

And C Bows, which means the damage output gap is more than 2 points.

Look at it this way then.

As paladin-pegasi, they'd both be doubled and killed. Neither would kill in one shot without a bit of help with a slayer weapon. At least Est gets levels faster.

He basically has a bit of relevent bow rank on her, but 5 kills after and she has the same rank. Due to greater leveling speed still (level 1 promote to a level 10 promote), it doesn't take long for her to outperform Arran.

And just what justifies earlier promotion for Est?

This is also forgoing that if Paula and Katua are around, and they happen to be melee classes, just her presence can kill a boss without error, much less that it could be her doing it as well (though she doesn't HAVE to be the one getting the kill. Rather rediculous on top of it, considering she levels up killing generics as is).

Other than perhaps Camus, what Boss is actually a threat in the lategame?

Edited August 22, 2009 by ?!

[grandjackal]

The literal difference between Sniper Arran and Archer Est is 2 Str ;;>>

And C Bows, which means the damage output gap is more than 2 points.

Look at it this way then.

As paladin-pegasi, they'd both be doubled and killed. Neither would kill in one shot without a bit of help with a slayer weapon. At least Est gets levels faster.

He basically has a bit of relevent bow rank on her, but 5 kills after and she has the same rank. Due to greater leveling speed still (level 1 promote to a level 10 promote), it doesn't take long for her to outperform Arran.

And just what justifies earlier promotion for Est?

This is also forgoing that if Paula and Katua are around, and they happen to be melee classes, just her presence can kill a boss without error, much less that it could be her doing it as well (though she doesn't HAVE to be the one getting the kill. Rather rediculous on top of it, considering she levels up killing generics as is).

Other than perhaps Camus, what Boss is actually a threat in the lategame?

1. Why not? Gets us what we need, there are lategame seals...

2. It's not that bosses are a threat, as much as we remove them quicker, safely (a miss can make all the difference), and with less resources (1 Ridersbane use>2)

[Dat Nick]

Hell, I want to say you're right, but...have you seen how badly Archer Est fails at life? 11 ATK. In chapter 18. You have to go ridiculously out of your way to get most stuff within her kill margin [Cavs have about 10~ def, right?] and then with 5 move she might not even get it.

Furthermore...the Arran comparison doesn't really hold, imho. Arran joins earlier with better stats when enemies aren't as powerful. Est is plain shit out of luck.

Oh, and here's where Est's level debuff screws her over. 7 levels before she can promote. So okay, she's a 10/1 Sniper who still kind of sucks and-Oh wait, Mamkutes are all over the damn place. She's pretty useless now, isn't she?

Edited August 23, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[Rodykitty]

I'm thinking that Arran might join Est in her tier since this seems to be pretty close.

[Dat Nick]

Wait, Est's dead end isn't 24...it's 23. Arran has longbow and enough AS to double the piss slow mages. Est doesn't. I guess Longbow/Silver use would play a big part in C22 as well.

So Est has...19 [she sucks in 18: Sure, she could finish off cavs...if she could hit them. 66~ hit is not very reassuring when the cost of missing is getting one rounded right back], 20, 20x, and 21 to surpass Arran. Gonna have to forgive me if I don't see that happening. And the fact that 11 ATK getting kills is a billion times worse than RADD's joining scenario kind of cancels out uber EXP gain anyway.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't think he meant using Archer Est. I think he meant using Peg Est, promoting at 10 and then making her a Sniper.

[Dat Nick]

Well, it doesn't really change anything since Est's damage output still sucks: Unless you want to risk miss-death with Ridersbane. She can just get to kills easier now...WHEN they're in her kill margin.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[grandjackal]

Hell, I want to say you're right, but...have you seen how badly Archer Est fails at life? 11 ATK. In chapter 18. You have to go ridiculously out of your way to get most stuff within her kill margin [Cavs have about 10~ def, right?] and then with 5 move she might not even get it.

Furthermore...the Arran comparison doesn't really hold, imho. Arran joins earlier with better stats when enemies aren't as powerful. Est is plain shit out of luck.

Oh, and here's where Est's level debuff screws her over. 7 levels before she can promote. So okay, she's a 10/1 Sniper who still kind of sucks and-Oh wait, Mamkutes are all over the damn place. She's pretty useless now, isn't she?

1. This was with her as a PEGASI before promotion. Changing her to archer to train her is stupid when she has a perfectly good C rank lance to deal with. Helps that the next chapter has plenty of swordies, so missing isn't much an issue. Specially with Minerva around, giving her boosts the very next chapter after join time. You'd figure Minerva wouldn't be so kind to Est...

Problem is when he joins (1.75 chapters, as he sucks when he joins, chapter with the mamkute boss, then a hoarkhoark gaiden), and enemies actually aren't that much weaker. On the other hand, Arran's boosted level of 10 promoted makes sure he doesn't get to leveling much at this point. I am on chapter 20, I don't even have guys at 20/3, much less promoted at 10. When Est joins, her leveling speed is ungodly. Doesn't take long...

Oh, they lowered her level? Guess she's leveling even faster. Thing is 5 levels is what she would have needed to be superior at promotion. 7 levels, and she's past what he could possibly ever reach. Rediculous they leveled her level anwyays, but it still doesn't take long to get her to promotion.

[dondon151]

Faster leveling speed does not offset needing more levels.

[grandjackal]

Oh my, 7 kills instead of 5, where do I get the nerve?

Edited August 23, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Rodykitty]

I'm thinking that Arran might join Est in her tier since this seems to be pretty close.

Well?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Oh my, 7 kills instead of 5, where do I get the nerve?

It's not necessarily 7 kills.

Arran in Est's tier sounds fine.

[dondon151]

Oh my, 7 kills instead of 5, where do I get the nerve?

So you do agree with me that it's 40% more difficult to get Est to promotion level?

[Dat Nick]

Helps that the next chapter has plenty of swordies, so missing isn't much an issue.

Indeed. Now we're back to damage being a problem. FOUR damage with steel Lance on the 11 def heroes. F O U R. With a melee weapon.

And then C20 is brave land where she's screwed to high heaven and back.

[Rodykitty]

Arran x Est 4 lyf

[grandjackal]

Oh my, 7 kills instead of 5, where do I get the nerve?

So you do agree with me that it's 40% more difficult to get Est to promotion level?

Not really. joining chapter has cavs, some horsemen who can't counter her and whom are probably too fast for many to one round. Second chapter has mercs or the WTA, again too fast for most to one round (I'm talking needing to be Draug/Cord/Julian fast) helped a bit more by instant Minerva support (haven't seen a single hit below 90 displayed and I persoanlly am having a slightly screwed Est). When she promotes, she just leaves Arran in the dust.

Only reason I'm not saying she rise to bottom is cause she still needs to be promoted. I'd be fne with Arran moving down to her, though I personally believe he should be below her. At promotion, she can actually double things, so at least I get improvement out of her which is something at least. Arran on the other hand is just always god-awful.

As a note, the 4 damage he's referring to are the 3 heroes on the map, and not the mercs that you start off fighting, of which she is doing a respectable 10 damage to with Steel. It's fair to say some things leave them enough in the dust for Est to straggle up.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

I'm shipping EstxArran. So hard.

And fine, merc kills in 19...are possible. It doesn't do THAT much for her still since theres only like 3 on the map and braves come in next chapter so she is officially boned.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[grandjackal]

I'm shipping EstxArran. So hard.

Guess that terminal disease he has is AIDS

EDIT: Also by then, and I can say this with certainty as I just went through it, Est is so near promotion that just a couple more turns and I could promote her in that very chapter. Also, most of these bravers are Paladins and the Minerva bonus helps lower errors (looking at it right now, some of these paladins actually are using brave swords, so there might not even be errors to be had). They're promoted, so it literally would be so few kills. I could give her surplus kills for the hell of it really.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[grandjackal]

So what's keeping Arran from being below her? At least with Est, we can actually see a point in time where we could actually consider her useful instead of just usable, of which Arran is questionable even then. Did you know against armors as his oh-so wonderful Sniper class, he can't actually hurt armors unless he wields steel of which he does a grand total of 3x2 damage to their 37 HP, making it a 16 RKO?

As a paladin, other paladins double him, horsemen can one round him regardless of weaker power because he's THAT pitiful. At least with Est, I actually have a reason to purposefully feed her kills as I will actually get returns out of it.

[Rodykitty]

Let's see how they're really doing.

Chapter 17:

Dragon Knight!Arran Lv. 10, 22 HP, 12 Def, 9 Str, 3 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 24 Atk

Horse Slayer: 34 Atk vs. Horses

Javelin: 18 Atk

Paladin!Arran Lv. 10, 24 HP, 10 Def, 8 Str, 6 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 23 Atk

Horse Slayer: 33 Atk vs. Horses

Javelin: 17 Atk

Bishop:

33 (34) HP

25 atk

85 (86) hit

8 AS

3 (4) def

9 (10) res

Gets OHKO'd right down to the very HP unless he uses a pure water or goes Paladin. In return, is two rounding this guy due to not doubling (he wouldn't be able to double even if he had the AS because of getting one shotted), and three rounding if Javelin.

Armor:

37 (3 HP

25 (26) atk

103 hit

4 AS

13 def

1 res

Arran's 12 Def soaks, of course, 12 damage off the 25-26 attack, meaning he's two rounded. In return, he is only able to do 22 damage per round, two rounding armors. 8-10 damage per round if Javelin.

Mage:

24 (25) HP

26 atk

82 (83) hit

5 (6) AS

3 (4) def

5 res

Gets OHKO'd again unless he pure waters or Paladin. Luckily though, can actually double, but that only means one rounding (even with Javelin) if he's a Paladin, because otherwise if he's Dragon Knight, he's offed before he can even perform his second attack.

Lvl 12 Thief:

31 HP

22 atk

112 hit

20 AS

4 def

Arran is barely surviving thanks to 12 Def. Once again two rounding with Silver, three if Javelin.

Sniper, Forged Killer Bow:

42 (43) HP

27 atk

125 (126) hit

16 AS

8 (9) def

3 res

Absolutely hopeless. 27 Atk - 12 Def = 15 * getting doubled = 30 damage. That's more than Arran's HP. Then the Sniper will crit him every single time just to screw with you. In the event Arran is touching this Sniper, he's doing 15 damage. That's three rounding.

Hero Silver Axe:

40 HP

27 atk

110 hit

18 AS

10 def

4 res

Oh look, it's the Sniper again, except this time he's not a troll when it comes to RNG occurrences. Arran is getting one rounded, obviously, but now Arran faces WTD and an enemy with even more defense, so that cuts damage down by 4 points, for 11 damage. Arran is four rounding this Hero with a Silver Lance.

Mamkute:

44 HP

36 atk

109 hit

25 (26) AS

15 (16) def

7 res

Lol.

Boss: Moses

44 HP

24 atk

103 hit

17 AS

17 def

oo Res

Lol.

Chapter 17x

Dragon Knight!Arran Lv. 11, 22 HP, 12 Def, 9 Str, 3 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 24 Atk

Horse Slayer: 34 Atk vs. Horses

Paladin!Arran Lv. 11, 24 HP, 10 Def, 8 Str, 6 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 23 Atk

Horse Slayer: 33 Atk vs. Horses

Basically the same stats before. As you can see, he has little hope of killing in Ch. 17 other than maybe a Mage or Bishop or some heavily weakened enemy, so why did he gain a level? For maybe killing a thing or two in Ch. 16. Maybe.

Armor:

37 (3 HP

27 (2 atk, 2 less for Jav guys

103 (104) hit

4 (5) AS

12 (13) Def

0 (1) res

Same deal as before, except now they have Javelins, meaning he may have to use a Javelin himself.

Horseman:

33 HP

22 atk

107 hit

15 AS

4 def

3 res

Uh oh! Arran's getting doubled. He has no hopes of surviving if he's Dragon Knight, and goes from having no hope to surviving to having no hope of surviving as Paladin, because as Paladin 22 atk - 10 Def = 12 damage * getting doubled = 24 damage. That's Arran's entire HP. So how much damage is he doing back if he manages to get up close? 34 attack - 4 Def = 30 HP of damage, two rounding, so he at least has chip damage here.

Archer:

30 HP

24 atk

107 hit

11 AS

8 def

2 res

Hahah. Same AS as Arran. 24 Attack, I assume Silver, meaning that the Archer's Str will buffer Arran's defense and then the effective damage of Dragon Knight will buffer his HP, OHKO'ing. Archer is sounding really terrifying right now! Looks like he's going Paladin this chapter. He's two rounding this archer with Silver.

Merc:

35 (36) HP

26 (27) atk

113 hit

15 AS

7 ( def

1 res

Oh look, some other dude that doubles Arran. Fortunately Arran has WTA, but 26 Atk - 3 bonus - Arran's 12 Def = 11 Damage. Getting doubled means Arran's taking 22 damage, which is his entire HP as Dragon Knight. As Paladin, it's 26 Atk - 3 bonus - 10 Def = 13 damage * getting doubled = 26 damage, which makes Paladin's HP lead completely pointless since the damage exceeds it. Is actually three rounding, because 17 damage * 2 is 34, and this Merc has a bit more HP than that, so Arran can't even catch a break.

Hero:

38 HP

25 atk

111 hit

18 AS

8 def

3 res

Actually has less Atk than Merc, so I'm assuming Killer Sword or Armor Slayer. Can probably survive as Dragon Knight.

Sniper, forge killer bow

40 HP

25 atk

125 hit

16 AS

7 def

4 res

See Chapter 7. Simply no hope.

Mage:

25 HP

26 atk

83 hit

6 AS

3 def

4 (5) res

Same thing as before as well.

Bishop:

30 HP

22 atk

85 hit

7 AS

3 def

9 res

Not OHKO'ing Arran this time even as Dragon Knight. Can one round KO something for once.

Cav:

35 (36) HP

27 (2 atk

103 hit [slvr sword has 108]

10 (11) AS

9 (10) def

1 res

More Arran's durability sucking. Is two rounding even with a Horse Slayer.

Mamkute:

37 HP

32 atk

104 hit

20 AS

12 def

6 res

Lol.

Boss: Aerodactyl. He's pretty cool. Okay fine, there's no "Aero" in there.

42 HP

31 atk [29 with jav]

104 hit

9 AS

16 def

3 res

Arran is what? Three rounding this guy and getting one rounded in return? Not even three rounding Aerodactyl because Throne Healing will just increase the number of rounds it takes to kill, which Arran isn't getting past the first round.

Chapter 18

Dragon Knight!Arran Lv. 11, 22 HP, 12 Def, 9 Str, 3 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 24 Atk

Horse Slayer: 34 Atk vs. Horses

Paladin!Arran Lv. 11, 24 HP, 10 Def, 8 Str, 6 Res, 11 AS

Silver Lance: 23 Atk

Horse Slayer: 33 Atk vs. Horses

Pegasus Knight!Est Lv. 3, 19 HP, 7 Def, 5 Str, 8 AS (you heard me)

Horse Slayer: 29 Atk vs. Horses

Okay... You have seen how poorly Arran was doing against Horses even with a Horse Slayer. Est will do even worse, and with even less speed and concrete durability! Isn't she awesome guys? Well, isn't she?

I don't have enough faith in Arran to give him a level up. He has to earn it, and as you can plainly see he's nearly incapable of scoring kills. He's also possibly the highest level character on your team, so even EXP he does gain may not be as much as we like.

Horseman 6:

37 HP

22 (23) atk

109 (110) hit

18 AS

5 (6) def [...wow]

2 (3) res

OHKO's Est and maybe Dragon Knight Arran (one rounding him for sure though). Paladin Arran is getting one round KO'd anyway. Both are 2RKO'ing.

Paladin:

44 (45) HP

30 atk silver lance, 29 horseslayer, 28 javelin

108 hit

16 AS

8 (9) def

5 res

Oh wow. No matter what they're getting screwed. Arran's Def as Dragon Knight doesn't save him from getting ORKO'd even by a freaking Javelin. Paladin Arran is just going to get Horse Slain. Est will get OHKO'd. Arran is 2RKOing and Est is 3RKOing. Gosh dang, why weren't they in the same tier before? This is horrible. IOS is right, this looking at numbers stuff really says a lot.

Cav 8:

39 (40) HP

30 atk [2 less for javs]

107 hit

12 AS

8 (9) def

0 (1) res

Arran may actually survive one of these guys, but lol, Est is getting doubled but even if she uses a weapon that doesn't weigh her down she is getting OHKO'd anyway.

Priest:

27 HP

11 HP heal, fortify

12 AS

5 def

9 res

HAY GUYZ EST CAN FARM EXP OFF THESE DUDES

Boss: (Sylvester) Stallone:

44 HP

34 atk

110 hit

17 AS

11 def

6 res

Triangle attack, I guess. Bosses on thrones are generally lame and are about the only thing guaranteed to get surrounded by. Not sure Est should get all of the credit though, since this is EXP that could be given to Paola or Katua.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[dondon151]

Est does 0x2 damage to armors. Oops.