H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On top of this, she would likely have B lances, of which she'd have 25 ATK with her 12 Str, along with ridersbane. By the time we get to the braves, she's actually capable of doing better. What's Arran got on her now?

The slightly earlier join time and lacking the need to be fed kills to do anything.

[grandjackal]

I never said Arran is doing anything special. I said that she may not get the levels needed to surpass his level of suck, because both of them are almost incapable of killing.

And I'm saying at least Est actually gains something from killing. If you're gonna be this way, just say they suck equally.

@ Sirius: Yes, actually he does need to be fed kills, and while Est can actually do some actual damage eventually, Arran on the other hand will be needing to be fed kills forever. He belongs in an old folks home, he doesn't look older than 40. Pathetic bastard.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Rodykitty]

I never said Arran is doing anything special. I said that she may not get the levels needed to surpass his level of suck, because both of them are almost incapable of killing.

And I'm saying at least Est actually gains something from killing. If you're gonna be this way, just say they suck equally.

I already said they sucked equally in the form of putting them in the same tier.

[grandjackal]

Well then I'm exercising my right to be nitpicky then.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I never said Arran is doing anything special. I said that she may not get the levels needed to surpass his level of suck, because both of them are almost incapable of killing.

@ Sirius: Yes, actually he does need to be fed kills, and while Est can actually do some actual damage eventually, Arran on the other hand will be needing to be fed kills forever. He belongs in an old folks home, he doesn't look older than 40. Pathetic bastard.

You said it yourself: He won't see much improvement. Ergo, he can move around as a sniper and do chip damage to help out others as a Sniper with Killer Bow for example. To do this, Est NEEDS levels.

[Rodykitty]

Well, I do feel that Sniper means more damage potential on Ch. 22 and safety chip damage, while Archer is locked to E in Bows and tremendous amounts of suck. Arran can at least use Gradius off the bat once it's obtained too. Arran has no reason to stay alive, while Est is forced to stay alive in order to use her growths.

Arran also has superior availability on Ch. 18, meaning he'll be seeing more Ridersbane use against the Social Knights/Paladins before Est joins. He can also kamikaze against one if he needs to, while Est can't really do that if she wants her growths, or if she does she isn't doing it as well as Arran.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[grandjackal]

I never said Arran is doing anything special. I said that she may not get the levels needed to surpass his level of suck, because both of them are almost incapable of killing.

@ Sirius: Yes, actually he does need to be fed kills, and while Est can actually do some actual damage eventually, Arran on the other hand will be needing to be fed kills forever. He belongs in an old folks home, he doesn't look older than 40. Pathetic bastard.

You said it yourself: He won't see much improvement. Ergo, he can move around as a sniper and do chip damage to help out others as a Sniper with Killer Bow for example. To do this, Est NEEDS levels.

Except the fact they're basically THE SAME regardless, even with him sucking regardless as a sniper. She's not trying to EQUAL him as she already does. I want to then give kills to the one who improves, and it ain't Arran.

[Colonel M]

Simple solution (and it's probably done): just put the two putzes together. Almost feeling that Lawrence should join them, but I don't know if the wedding will allow 3 people and at least he can chip DracoKnights in C21 & 22 on top of finishing off a random Paladin.

[Rodykitty]

just put the two putzes together.

They are together. The debate is who should be higher within that tier.

Also, was it you or someone else that said Lawrence can actually survive something? I think that alone qualifies for a tier gap.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Colonel M]

I did say he can survive some shots. They can't be Paladins though (w/Lances, the Sword ones get knocked down to ~DracoKnight power).

[Colonel M]

Hm... I think we left off with moving Matthis down but never finished. Huh...

Well, I double checked. Matthis can never reach 20 Spd until 20/11, and sadly that would be considering Archer -> Sniper. So even with the guy going to Curate, he'll never double in the lategame. To add to the insult, Roshe can't reach it until 20/15. Terrible. Radd can't pull off 20 Spd until 10/18. Yup, all three are practically the kings of failure.

IMO Matthis should simply join his buddies Radd and Roshe, in fact squeezing him inbetween the two. Gordin has utility, Etzel can whip Excalibur and at least use Mend Staves, Tiki can actually make uses out of levels... what can Matthis really do? So with a baby step, I think it's at least safe to say Matthis < Gordin though it's your choice to simply pummel him down there.

[_____]

IMO Matthis should simply join his buddies Radd and Roshe, in fact squeezing him inbetween the two.

I dunno'. 5 Chapters is a pretty decent amount of time to level up. I could see Matthis > Radd.

[Colonel M]

IMO Matthis should simply join his buddies Radd and Roshe, in fact squeezing him inbetween the two.

I dunno'. 5 Chapters is a pretty decent amount of time to level up. I could see Matthis > Radd.

You're right. Radd would have to pull some major leveling out of his ass in order to be decent. Early promotion is probably another insult to the injury where Radd can't double.

Matthis > Radd > Roshe seems fine for now. Perhaps I'll look more in-depth with a comparison between the two of them though just in case, but I can agree to that for now.

[grandjackal]

Matthis can reach 20 speed by 20/9...If he goes Mage-Swordmaster ;;>>

[_____]

When do you think is a realistic promotion time for Matthis if he goes full Curate? I mean level 20 here.

Level 1 Sniper Minerva: 28 HP, 9 Defense, 3 Res

Steel Bow: 17 ATK, 92 Hit, 14 AS, 9 Crit, 31 Avoid, 6 CEV

Iron Bow: 14 ATK, 102 Hit, 14 AS, 9 Crit, 31 Avoid, 6 CEV

Level 1 Curate -> Sniper Matthis: 38 HP, 7 Defense, 10 Res

Steel Bow: 17 ATK, 93 Hit, 14 AS, 10 Crit, 30 Avoid, 5 CEV

Iron Bow: 14 ATK, 103 Hit, 14 AS, 10 Crit, 30 Avoid, 5 CEV

Very, very similar. 10 HP and 7 res (that's a pure water) versus 2 Defense, really. Matthis has been healing and helping out the team, which is a positive, but then he takes a Master Seal, which balances that out, I guess. You may say "Minerva can go back to DracoKnight for A Axes", but Matthis can also switch back to a Bishop/Sage for A staves.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems pretty close.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

When do you think is a realistic promotion time for Matthis if he goes full Curate? I mean level 20 here.

Level 1 Sniper Minerva: 28 HP, 9 Defense, 3 Res

Steel Bow: 17 ATK, 92 Hit, 14 AS, 9 Crit, 31 Avoid, 6 CEV

Iron Bow: 14 ATK, 102 Hit, 14 AS, 9 Crit, 31 Avoid, 6 CEV

Level 1 Curate -> Sniper Matthis: 38 HP, 7 Defense, 10 Res

Steel Bow: 17 ATK, 93 Hit, 14 AS, 10 Crit, 30 Avoid, 5 CEV

Iron Bow: 14 ATK, 103 Hit, 14 AS, 10 Crit, 30 Avoid, 5 CEV

Very, very similar. 10 HP and 7 res (that's a pure water) versus 2 Defense, really. Matthis has been healing and helping out the team, which is a positive, but then he takes a Master Seal, which balances that out, I guess. You may say "Minerva can go back to DracoKnight for A Axes", but Matthis can also switch back to a Bishop/Sage for A staves.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems pretty close.

Yes, I've brought this up before. If Maric can get to promotion at the time of the first seal, so can Matthis, and any curate who joins generally around their time. That's the problem though, him healing is more a null than a positive, as you could change any A class dude and have them heal just as well as he. Then the thought of training to get basically an overall inferior Minerva (she still has A axes), and A staffs are not that impressive, and again anyone can generally do it. Thus we have a generally inferior draco, essentially the same sniper (though one didn't need a seal), and a healer of which finding one to get A staffs is not really hard.

There is a noticeable difference in performance.

[Rodykitty]

Matthis can actually get the levels needed to compare to Minerva. Radd joins like, two chapters before her.

And Roshe is just complete fail.

I'll bump him to the top of low mid. While it's true he can essentially become a pre-promote, he does need to be player initiated leveled for it and need a master seal, while Minerva is pretty much guaranteed to have existing utility every playthrough.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[grandjackal]

Roshea doesn't suck T.T He has workable bases...

[_____]

Yes, I've brought this up before. If Maric can get to promotion at the time of the first seal, so can Matthis, and any curate who joins generally around their time.

Yeah, the fact that he joins in the same chapter as Merric helps.

That's the problem though, him healing is more a null than a positive, as you could change any A class dude and have them heal just as well as he.

So Merric is not a positive early on? If so, I can definitely see him dropping under Sheeda or Ogma.

Then the thought of training to get basically an overall inferior Minerva (she still has A axes), and A staffs are not that impressive, and again anyone can generally do it. Thus we have a generally inferior draco, essentially the same sniper (though one didn't need a seal), and a healer of which finding one to get A staffs is not really hard.

A 10 HP lead is most definitely not the same. For reference purposes, Minerva never reaches 38 HP. In fact, just for reference purposes, at level 20 (if we're having Matthis promote after the first seal, then they join at basically the same time, so 20 is possible) there's a whopping 20 HP difference. Minerva wins has lolskill, loluck, and 2 defense on him during his entire existence. He has the HP, 7 Res, and they tie Strength and Defense. Who cares about Matthis' Draco compared to Minerva's, anyway? You should be comparing A Staffs to A Axes, not Draco vs. Draco and Bishop vs. Bishop.

A Staffs is a lot more useful than A Axes, anyway. Draco Minerva is inferior to Sniper Minerva most of the time, so it's a bit useless. A Staffs, however, gives you another Warp user, which is always welcome, or just another healer for times where him as a Sniper would be useless.

By the way, saying that anyone can get A staffs is not a compelling argument. I could say anyone can get A Axes because anyone in Class Set B can switch to Fighter/Pirate.

There is a noticeable difference in performance.

It's actually in Matthis' favor.

Matthis can actually get the levels needed to compare to Minerva. Radd joins like, two chapters before her.

And Roshe is just complete fail.

I'll bump him to the top of low mid. While it's true he can essentially become a pre-promote, he does need to be player initiated leveled for it and need a master seal, while Minerva is pretty much guaranteed to have existing utility every playthrough.

I'm awesome. 8D

I like Matthis as a lot more than the next guy, but above Dolph and Catria seems odd. It's a confusing ordeal.

[Rodykitty]

So Merric is not a positive early on? If so, I can definitely see him dropping under Sheeda or Ogma.

Merric is still a better healer than everyone except Wendell, and then he makes up for it by having Mage as an option and his performance as a Sage class.

I like Matthis as a lot more than the next guy, but above Dolph and Catria seems odd. It's a confusing ordeal.

Both Catria and Dolph have been proven to have an extremely difficult time getting kills without reinforcement farming.

By the way, saying that anyone can get A staffs is not a compelling argument.

C Staves.

I'm awesome. 8D

This has been proven before, just that we forgot.

[_____]

Merric is still a better healer than everyone except Wendell, and then he makes up for it by having Mage as an option and his performance as a Sage class.

He only has a 20% growth rate and 3 extra magic. How is that so much better than everyone else?

Both Catria and Dolph have been proven to have an extremely difficult time getting kills without reinforcement farming.

Fair enough.

C Staves.

Only C?

This has been proven before, just that we forgot.

That's a bit disheartening.

[Rodykitty]

He only has a 20% growth rate and 3 extra magic. How is that so much better than everyone else?

Because their Mag growths are even worse, but Merric's bases help him improve for Sage time. And like I said before, he can still easily switch to Mage and function.

Only C?

You only need C for Warp. Bishops start with D, and few Class Set B characters have business being a Sorcerer in the first place (one that does, Etzel, starts with D).

[Quasar]

This has been proven before, just that we forgot.

That's a bit disheartening.

Maybe he meant that you being awesome was already proven.

[_____]

Because their Mag growths are even worse, but Merric's bases help him improve for Sage time. And like I said before, he can still easily switch to Mage and function.

Fine. I was just saying that Matthis healing wasn't really a null in and of itself.

You only need C for Warp. Bishops start with D, and few Class Set B characters have business being a Sorcerer in the first place (one that does, Etzel, starts with D).

Alright. You still need B and up for the likes of Recover and Fortify, which are nice.

Maybe he meant that you being awesome was already proven.

If only.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

Alright. You still need B and up for the likes of Recover and Fortify, which are nice.

True, though these are really more full time healing tasks, which Matthis isn't one of these.

Fine. I was just saying that Matthis healing wasn't really a null in and of itself.

I never said it was either, otherwise he wouldn't have risen as high as he just did.