H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

That doesn't happen until Level 15, and there's also Barst 2RKOing a lot more often than Cord in the beginning. In C4, assuming both get two level ups and being generous to Cord here, Barst can 2RKO Fighters with his Steel Axe (20 Atk mind you) and 3RKO Cavs and Horseman (IIRC both can be 3RKOed with the Hand Axe too). Barst can even 2RKO the Archers with the Steel Axe. Cord w/Steel only has 18 Atk, the same as Barst w/Hand Axe.

[Rodykitty]

Let's not put too much weight on early game. Cord is going to be better than Barst for longer than Barst will be better.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How much of a difference do their statistics make though? If Cord's durability or offense isn't helping him kill something sooner than Barst or live longer, then it's not worth much.

[Rodykitty]

I don't think it matters much how big the gap is, they're right next to each other on the tier list. What matters is what breaks the tie.

[Colonel M]

Let's not put too much weight on early game. Cord is going to be better than Barst for longer than Barst will be better.

Again, this isn't true. Cord will always be behind Str-wise until a bit after promotion. Then, there's still 12-13 levels that Barst technically was doing better due to the slightly higher Str and not enough Spd to double. He's also pulling 3RKOes defensively a bit more often than Cord is. Let's not forget that Barst is obtaining the good weapons (Hammer, Silver Axe) faster than Cord is.

IOS was the person that made the argument, but I can't remember if it got lost in the purge. Even so, I'm willing to piece this apart with something like a chapter-by-chapter comparison.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

What jumps out at me right away is that even after promotion Fighter/Hero Barst will still fail to double faster enemies like Horsemen, Pegs, Wyverns, Fliers, Heroes, et cetera...whereas Cord can double most of those with 21 AS.

[Rodykitty]

The thing is, Cord needs to be level 15 to double Social Knights and Archers, but Barts has to be level 20. For five whole levels Cord's Str & Mt are doubled.

Promoted, Cord will be doubling Paladins, Snipers, and slower Wyverns & Horsemen right away. Barts needs to be 20/4 to do this. In just a couple of levels, he'll be doubling 18 units as well.

[Colonel M]

Barst can keep up as a Hero. Technically due to level he would promote first. I did forget about Cord having enough Spd to double the Pegs and Wyverns by 20/9. Then again, Barst still has his durability to speak of in the lategame too. Using 20/9 as an example, he has 44 HP | 14 Def. He can turn things toward a 3RKO. Only the Paladins can really 2RKO him, and that's if the weapon triangle is neutral.

*Grumble*...

BTW, Barts at 20/3 can practically double the Horseman and DracoKnights for the short time. Paladins too. He can keep up for a while until probably C22... and I guess the Heroes / C18 on Horsemen.

Probably won't try to bother with an early promotion argument... but perhaps there is a possibility on that.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Barst can keep up as a Hero.

Requires more EXP to get the speed up. Cord is going to see a more instant performance difference.

[Colonel M]

Barst can keep up as a Hero.

Requires more EXP to get the speed up. Cord is going to see a more instant performance difference.

Again, it's not like Barst is promoting by C16. He's going to get a level or two after promotion, which gives him that much of an impact to double the DracoKnights and the Horseman. As I've said, Cord can only double the Heroes (which I'll concede to but they don't make up a major portion of the map) and C18 on Horseman. Also the DracoKnights / Pegasi on C22.

Alright, guess I'll stop. No real point in going on, I guess. Unless suddenly Mercenary levels became an argument.

---

Hm, another thought popped into my head though. Rickard > Tomas?

I know Rickard is technically a failure at life and if we really wanted a thief there's Julian. We can't really deny that he's a thief though. For Tomas to be useful, he needs levels. For Rickard to be useful, he just needs to pick at chests / doors. I mean, seriously, what does TOMAS have over this guy?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Exactly how much weight do we shove on thief utility though? Rickard doesn't have a Silver Card, so to speak: Using him will acquire you next to nothing, it just saves a few thousand gold and is somewhat more convenient.

[Colonel M]

In a technical sense, Rickard doesn't need CEXP to be useful. He can save some liquid cash or earn money (in the scenario of selling keys). With Julian picking chests, he can help Marth charge toward the throne much more effeciently. Thief utility isn't great in this game in comparison to other FEs, but that doesn't mean that it suddenly doesn't exist. As I've said on IM, you'd have to seriously undermime thief utility to say that Tomas is better. Hell, even Midia (who I feel should drop).

[Fei Mao]

What makes Darros upper mid tier is it his Knight--->General set up or something else? Probably just me but I have a hard time keeping him alive by the time he can reclass he's facing enemies that can put him to near death (cavaliers and fighters?) Not to mention that cavalier with the armor slayer, well in all yes he seems pretty good with that 60% defense growth but won't his 0% speed put him in trouble with magic users?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Jason W.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Magic users are low in numbers and so are effective weapons. His durability's pretty much similar to everyone else's: 2RKOed but once he reaches 20 DEF, he's ready for promotion which makes him only inferior to Wolf and Sedgar in terms of tanking.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Magic users are low in numbers and so are effective weapons. His durability's pretty much similar to everyone else's: 2RKOed but once he reaches 20 DEF, he's ready for promotion which makes him only inferior to Wolf and Sedgar in terms of tanking.

I would disagree on getting him to 20 defense. You can just level him up to 10 and instantly promote him and he will be better off from a performance perspective due to the enhanced bases and he will still be able to cap defense as a general. Sure his hp,strength,skill will take a nasty hit but he will be able to focus on his bow ranks and have a generally higher chance to hit thus his experience gain might be a little better as well.

[Colonel M]

He reaches about 20 Def a little later (like near Level 18) but an earlier promotion is better for him since he'll get the bonus he really needs: +10 HP. Of course +4 Def helps out a lot. Ironically IIRC Bord comes eerily close to Darros as far as capping the stat.

Uh, can we try to see what Rickard can do though? I mean, I feel that thieving utility isn't saving him from the bottom, but seriously: Midia and Tomas are complete failures without training. Heck, ASTRAM and SAMSON do more than Midia all day.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Well, Rickard can basically be one shot'd by everything...Sort of hampers on his ability to do anything. On top of it, he's got worse bases and growths than Julian, of which barely saves him as it is. Another note is that even if he's not one shot'd, he has shit for luck, meaning he'd constantly run the chance of being ORKOd anyways.

Rickard's only got thievery going for him.

[Colonel M]

Well, Rickard can basically be one shot'd by everything...Sort of hampers on his ability to do anything. On top of it, he's got worse bases and growths than Julian, of which barely saves him as it is. Another note is that even if he's not one shot'd, he has shit for luck, meaning he'd constantly run the chance of being ORKOd anyways.

Rickard's only got thievery going for him.

Except in short thieving doesn't require you to gain a single drop of CEXP. Being ORKOed is a problem, but do you see Midia and Tomas doing anything significant at base? At least Rickard has utility out of the box.

[Dat Nick]

take a nasty hit but he will be able to focus on his bow ranks and have a generally higher chance to hit thus his experience gain might be a little better as well.

Lances have the same hit as bows: I don't see how it's helping his accuracy when his accuracy is fine anyway.

If anything switching to bows will make his hit worse; General gives extra Lance WEXP on top of what he's already accumulated as Knight meaning he should be B Lances (+5 hit) if not close. General only has E Bow rank base.

[Rodykitty]

Well, Rickard can basically be one shot'd by everything...Sort of hampers on his ability to do anything. On top of it, he's got worse bases and growths than Julian, of which barely saves him as it is. Another note is that even if he's not one shot'd, he has shit for luck, meaning he'd constantly run the chance of being ORKOd anyways.

Rickard's only got thievery going for him.

Except in short thieving doesn't require you to gain a single drop of CEXP. Being ORKOed is a problem, but do you see Midia and Tomas doing anything significant at base? At least Rickard has utility out of the box.

I see Midia carrying keys to completely obsolete Rickard and having the ability to double a bunch of things. Thomas has early promotion to help his combat.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

take a nasty hit but he will be able to focus on his bow ranks and have a generally higher chance to hit thus his experience gain might be a little better as well.

Lances have the same hit as bows: I don't see how it's helping his accuracy when his accuracy is fine anyway.

If anything switching to bows will make his hit worse; General gives extra Lance WEXP on top of what he's already accumulated as Knight meaning he should be B Lances (+5 hit) if not close. General only has E Bow rank base.

Sorry didn't clarify that well enough. OR at all even. I was referring to javelins. Well I would have been referring to javelins had I written that properly. Going general early would give him accurate two range is what I am saying for the most part....

Edit: as well as the obvious improved bases like I mentioned.*

He reaches about 20 Def a little later (like near Level 18) but an earlier promotion is better for him since he'll get the bonus he really needs: +10 HP. Of course +4 Def helps out a lot. Ironically IIRC Bord comes eerily close to Darros as far as capping the stat.

Bord/Cord both have 40% defense growth/+2 Defense base as knights. Barst has a 3 defense base and a 45% defense growth as a knight. It might be possible for all 3 of them to promote early to take the enhanced bases as generals. This could help bord out the most since the other two have generally better options before promotion. Sure they might not end up capping defense thanks to the early promotion but for someone like bord it would give him a superior mid game/late game.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Lancelot

[_____]

I see Midia carrying keys to completely obsolete Rickard and having the ability to double a bunch of things.

Rickard is also there for 7 more chapters than Midia, 2 being chest heavy and 2 others with a few doors, and Midia is as much of a combat failure as Rickard in the lategame, so I only see her winning during the midgame when it comes to running around with keys. Also, not spending money > spending it, etc.

Now, this might not be enough to compensate for Midia's chip damage in the midgame, but it's decent.

[Rodykitty]

Sniper or Javelins alone is an instant durability for Midia over Rickard, because how she has opportunities to attack without getting pizzowned. Midia's HP is surprisingly decent too. In fact, Midia's problems are easier to fix for her than some other character's problems, hm...

Midia carrying keys is just to lol at Thief utility hype.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

Midia carrying keys is just to lol at Thief utility hype.

Really, it's not hype. You're basically disregarding it by saying "lolkeys". Keys aren't available for Chapter 6 and Marth doesn't have his Fire Emblem, so Rickard is already helping by grabbing cool stuff like a Seraph Robe and a Bullion, which are always helpful. There are no Chest Keys and Marth can not be everywhere, so while Marth is going ahead to grab the boots in Chapter 12, Rickard can steal all of the stuff by the General (Bullion, Master Seal, Arms Scroll, etc.) and free Midia and pals. Rickard can grab the chests by the Sniper (Silver Card, Bullion) so that Marth can recruit Catria and Palla. The chests in Chapter 15 are on the other side of the map from the throne, so Marth won't go there. Chapter 16 is the last chapter where Door Keys are sold until the Final, so she can't even have those for a third of the game unless you stock up. Chapter 17, chests to the left, opposite of throne, etc. Fuck 17x and it's doors, but there is a lot of cool stuff like a Warp, a Longbow, and a Poleaxe and you don't want Marth falling behind. All of that stuff in Chapter 19, including the Geosphere, Speedwings, and a Bullion are there for Rickard to pick. 20x has multiple paths that branch off and, guess what, Marth can't be everywhere. Rickard can grab the stuff at the top of 23, and Excalibur/Aura from 24x, I guess.

Look at all of this stuff that Rickard can grab that Midia can't, and then say that she laughs in Rickard's face because she can open doors with a key.

[Rodykitty]

She's laughing at Rickard for being able to use keys because she actually has combat worth.

Even if she's not using keys, there are a ton of characters that can.

Rickard's thief utility is mostly convenience and money saving. That's it. It's nothing ground breaking enough to outweigh many characters' combat ability.