H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

We're here to figure out why their chances of being played is slim, not to judge aspects based on their chance of play.

[_____]

What is there to figure out? Est is obviously assumed, Catria and Palla are both Lower Mid. Their chances of being played matter a lot more than why they are Lower Mid in this.

[Dat Nick]

I was saying that the chances of Catria, Palla, and Est being played is slim.

Oh those three.

Well since we're debating Est she's obviously being played, so that leaves Catria and Palla, i.e we only need to worry about two more units in play.

Also, BS [Har, I'm going to call you BS now because I'm a clever dastard], you never answered me regarding Astram>Medea.

[Rodykitty]

I simply rose Astoria without regard, and can lower him back if necessary.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

We're here to figure out why their chances of being played is slim, not to judge aspects based on their chance of play.

Look at number of units you can deploy in the chapters and see how it conflicts with a common team. It's true that you could just Field Paola and Katua along with Est if you've kept them alive but then there's the issue of that keeping you away from 17x and 20x unless your team is seriously small. Then also consider that fielding the 3 sisters could rob you of a useful combat unit.

[Colonel M]

Again, Est simply makes training one of the two easier. Or at least allows something to die in one shot. Est doesn't have to initiate the attack. Whichever one is trained can. Also, the unit slots not having much other competition (generics are the closest we got since our team shouldn't be wtfhueg).

I guess that needing 2 units to kill something is a bit > 3, but then again... it's weird to argue either side.

[Rodykitty]

Look at number of units you can deploy in the chapters and see how it conflicts with a common team. It's true that you could just Field Paola and Katua along with Est if you've kept them alive but then there's the issue of that keeping you away from 17x and 20x unless your team is seriously small. Then also consider that fielding the 3 sisters could rob you of a useful combat unit.

I try to ignore the concept of a "common team".

Unit slots is one thing that has little to do with a common team though, and you're right, but they're already so low so I think that covers that. But also consider that using a "good unit" robs the three sisters of a chance to do anything, even if the payoff isn't better.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Look at number of units you can deploy in the chapters and see how it conflicts with a common team. It's true that you could just Field Paola and Katua along with Est if you've kept them alive but then there's the issue of that keeping you away from 17x and 20x unless your team is seriously small. Then also consider that fielding the 3 sisters could rob you of a useful combat unit.

I try to ignore the concept of a "common team".

Unit slots is one thing that has little to do with a common team though, and you're right, but they're already so low so I think that covers that. But also consider that using a "good unit" robs the three sisters of a chance to do anything, even if the payoff isn't better.

If making the Triangle Attack possible to help 1 of the 3 level up at the cost of benching 2 units who are of greater benefit, doesn't that make the triangle attack a detriment?

[Quasar]

Another thing is that since Est is the weakest of the sisters she's also the least suitable to execute it and if assumed equality for them she only executes every third TA. One more problem that was mentioned earlier too is that it forces her sisters to stay as PKs to be effectively able to pull it off and they don't exactly want PK after a while. TA can be useful but it's definitely not without downsides.

[Colonel M]

Alright, I need some clarification.

From what I recall, you can be in any class, right? So Palla wants Sniper and if Catria and Est are still Pegasi (or Catria DracoKnight / Paladin, you get the point?) all Est would have to do is be 2 spaces away as well as Catria in order to execute the triangle attack. Right?

God this shit is confusing.

Also, Roger can supposedly double from time to time as a Fighter in C9. Go 8 AS Pirates. >_>;

[Quasar]

I think only the one executing the attack has to be a PK. What I meant was that when you remove flying and some Mov points from the sisters aligning them next to an enemy will be quite a bit harder unless the one you're targeting is a chapter boss.. but even in that case everyone dealing damage separately is better than Est TA since Est is the weakest and weakestx3 < weakest+stronger+stronger. This is of course neglecting taking less counters.

Edit: Scratch that.

"The three can be of any class, but the Triangle Attack only works if the intiator is attacking the enemy from melee range (i.e Range of 1)."

Edited August 27, 2009 by Quasar

[Colonel M]

I think that's the final nail in the coffin then. Arran can still suck, but at least he's better than Est. My opinion on it, anyway.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

Triangle Attack doesn't impress me. Have you considered that enemies come in usually pretty enormous groups, where putting Est in the middle of them just so one of Katua/Paola can pull off an OHKO demands that you kill off every single enemy that has Est in their attack range in that turn? I don't think many units are capable of ORKOing regardless. Cord, probably. Sedgar/Wolf, as Heroes. Maybe people like Abel.

Seems awfully inconvenient.

[Rodykitty]

Alright.

[_____]

Seriously, Samson and Rickard > Midia? Is that going to go into effect any time soon?

[Rodykitty]

Samson maybe, but like I said Rickard will never rise up over Midia, ever.

[Dat Nick]

Honestly, y'all are kind of blowing thief utility out of proportion here.

=32&c[3]=32&c[4]=32&c[5]=32&c[6]=32&c[7]=32&c[8]=32&c[9]=32&c[10]=32&c[11]=32&c[12]=32&c[13]=32&c[14]=32&c[15]=32&c[16]=32&c[17]=32&c[18]=32&c[19]=32&c[20]=32"]take Sniper Midia here

and compare it to Ricardo here

The main thing you'll notice when looking at Medea's averages and coupled with the fact that she is not locked at C bows forever, is that she eventually stops sucking as a unit and can do some good [At about 6/0] When is Rickard doing that? Never at any point in the game. Medea's start really does kill her admittedly but she's not even close to useless if some degree of effort is put into her: Not that this isn't a problem as it's the primary reason why she's ranked so low, but you could toss Rickard all the favoritism and stat boosters in the world and he'd still be a shitty unit. Medea is saveable within reasonable conditions.

Maybe thief utility means something, but it doesn't mean enough to offset that big of a combat win [and that's totally ignoring that Midia as Sniper means she has infinity times better durability than Rickard]

Edited August 27, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

Thank you, Joker.

[_____]

Samson maybe, but like I said Rickard will never rise up over Midia, ever.

Really, you're being a stubborn jackass. You haven't shown any evidence for Midia > Rickard, except for "keys", which were shown to barely effect anything.

Honestly, y'all are kind of blowing thief utility out of proportion here.

=32&c[3]=32&c[4]=32&c[5]=32&c[6]=32&c[7]=32&c[8]=32&c[9]=32&c[10]=32&c[11]=32&c[12]=32&c[13]=32&c[14]=32&c[15]=32&c[16]=32&c[17]=32&c[18]=32&c[19]=32&c[20]=32"]take Sniper Midia here

and compare it to Ricardo here

The main thing you'll notice when looking at Medea's averages and coupled with the fact that she is not locked at C bows forever, is that she eventually stops sucking as a unit and can do some good [At about 6/0] When is Rickard doing that? Never at any point in the game. Medea's start really does kill her admittedly but she's not even close to useless if some degree of effort is put into her: Not that this isn't a problem as it's the primary reason why she's ranked so low, but you could toss Rickard all the favoritism and stat boosters in the world and he'd still be a shitty unit. Medea is saveable within reasonable conditions.

Maybe thief utility means something, but it doesn't mean enough to offset that big of a combat win [and that's totally ignoring that Midia as Sniper means she has infinity times better durability than Rickard]

You're missing the point.

Think of Rickard like a healer. He doesn't require any type of training. He could have 1 HP and 0 stats for everything, and yet he would still be able to preform his utility. I've shown multiple times that Rickard makes you a shitload of money so that you can actually buy stuff like Silver often. In this sense, his lockpicking is actually helping the team's offense. Midia is only a slightly better combat failure.

Hell, we could toss Rickard a forged Iron Sword since he's making you so much money and have him grab a few kills in 6x since the enemies suck. Yeah, he's one-shotted and it's not efficient, but Midia's chip damage is just as bad, and she's just as bad defensively, too. However, this isn't required for Rickard to do his job. It is for Midia.

[Dat Nick]

You're missing the point.

No, I get the point, but you're hideously exaggerating thieving utility in this game by saying it makes up for 50x better Combat.

I've shown multiple times that Rickard makes you a shitload of money so that you can actually buy stuff like Silver often. In this sense, his lockpicking is actually helping the team's offense. Midia is only a slightly better combat failure.

Here's where your logic crumbles: We don't need Rickard for a single chest in the game. And it's not "slightly", Medea can do something called "not dying" and later on "damage". Honestly? I'd RATHER waste a few extra turns sending Marth back to chests rather than putting up with Rickard's fail.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

Really, you're being a stubborn jackass. You haven't shown any evidence for Midia > Rickard, except for "keys", which were shown to barely effect anything.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11699&view=findpost&p=552520

That post alone kills ANY hope of Rickard ever going up.

Think of Rickard like a healer. He doesn't require any type of training. He could have 1 HP and 0 stats for everything, and yet he would still be able to preform his utility. I've shown multiple times that Rickard makes you a shitload of money so that you can actually buy stuff like Silver often. In this sense, his lockpicking is actually helping the team's offense.

Healers also see actual improvement in what they do, and some have other factors as part of their utility (Rena, Wendell). Oh, hey. We can make Midia a Bishop, suddenly she's a Mend user that needed no EXP to have utility. Now she's superior at combat AND can boast she can be useful without EXP. What now?

And the money you make off of selling your master keys is only 2400. That's one Silver Sword. You also get some free door keys for free, you can get door keys for pretty freaking cheap, and Rickard's utility is shared by one other thief.

Yeah, that's a lot of money being saved. We can get like, a +1 Mt on a forge or something with that kind of money!

Edited August 27, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dat Nick]

In addition...

Not to bring unit slots into this or anything but with a unit like Rickard it's a problem, especially when he eats up a unit slot that could have been a generic so he's counter-productive on the only thing he's good for: Money. Never mind that the generic units probably have better stats than him which is just plain sad. Julian justifies his time being fielded and not just as a chest whore because he can actually do something resembling combat: All Rickard does is just open the chests and sit on his ass the rest of the chapter.

You know something? Looking into it, I daresay Rickard COULD join Love affair tier, as using him will only result in counter-productive results. At least Est/Arran have better stats than Generics.

[Rodykitty]

Above or below Est?

[Dat Nick]

Honestly, I want to say below as not even Est can be accused of negative utility, just sucking.

Rickard winds up costing you more than he saves you when the entire point of him is to save money, and he's even worse at combat than Est is. I almost want to say he deserves his own tier, but let's start slow and just edge him between Est/Arran for now since it's bound to be controversial.

also

The cheapest item generics come with is a fire tome, selling for 150. The most expensive is a heal staff, selling for 400. Let's average the two and say each generic weapon has a net worth of 225 just to see how quickly Rickard manages to defeat the entire purpose of himself...according to my calculations, Rickard has accumulated negative utility [The point where he'd have been more of a benefit being killed off than left alive] in 11 chapters, in which he uses up 2475 G worth of generic iron weapons.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

Rickard is now wedged between Arran & Est.