H5 Tier list topic

[_____]

No. Nobody gets assumed any credit for any chest, but nice try.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Nobody ever grabs them? Alright. Marth and Julian down, right now.

what the hell? no it's not

14 AS, which she reaches by level 5, doubles cavs throughout the midgame pretty consistently. She'll attain Silver before her time is up as well. That's not high tier epic. It's sure as hell not shit.

That was my mistake. I meant to say early game. I'll go into her midgame now.

=32&c[3]=32&c[4]=32&c[5]=32&c[6]=32&c[7]=32&c[8]=32&c[9]=32&c[10]=32&c[11]=32&c[12]=32&c[13]=32&c[14]=32&c[15]=32&c[16]=32&c[17]=32&c[18]=32&c[19]=32&c[20]=32]Level 6, actually, at least according to the stats you posted, and let's take Chapter 16, where she will more than likely reach level 6. It's still a level a chapter, even though she sucks hard early on.

Horseman 6:

36 HP

22 atk

108 hit

16 AS

6 (7) def

3 res

3RKO.

3RKO'd in return.

Horseman 8: [Forged killer bow]

37 HP

23 atk

118 hit

16 AS

7 def

4 res

3RKO.

2RKO'd in return.

Wyvern:

42 HP

Atk: 26 Poleax, 27 Horseslayer, 28 Silver Lance

103 hit

16 AS

11 (12) def

4 res

All 3 2RKO.

All 3 2RKO'd.

Hero:

40 (41) HP

28 atk, 19 Thunder sword [Res hit]

115 hit, 126 Thunder Sword

17 (1 AS

10 def

3 res

4RKO.

The slower one 2RKOs. The faster one 1RKOs.

Cav 6:

34 HP

26 atk [Horseslayer]

104 hit

11 AS

8 def

1 res

3RKO.

2RKO'd.

Cav 8: [2 Jav 1 silver sword]

35 (36) HP

28 atk [26 Javelin]

109 hit [105 Javelin]

11 AS

9 def

1 res

4RKOs all.

2RKO'd by all.

Cav 10: [1 Armorslayer, 1 Horseslayer]

37 HP

27 atk

105 hit (110 Armorslayer)

11 (12) AS

10 def

1 res

4RKO.

2RKO'd in return.

Paladin:

43 HP

29 atk

107 hit

15 AS

10 def

7 res

5RKO.

2RKO'd.

General:

45 HP

29 atk

106 hit

9 AS

15 def

4 res

5RKO.

2RKO.

Thief:

30 HP

22 atk

111 hit

19 AS

3 def

2RKO.

2RKO'd.

Boss: Holsard

50 HP

31 atk [Forged Killer Lance. And bow.]

113 hit

10 AS

17 def

3 res

lol

Even at her best, she's still doing fairly badly.

Nobody ever attacks Zag and Wolf for their EXP gain, and their situation is worse than Medea's.

You wanna tell me how this logic makes sense...? Due to the way the system works, Medea's EXP might actually be better than most of your other units at this point.

1 level a chapter isn't fair? She has no enemy phase, and her player phase is not good. The 1 level per chapter is the only part that matters, really.

And yeah, use a chapter in which her usefulness has worn out already to prove your point, please.

did you ninja edit or what? I never saw that.

Maybe. I don't remember.

C6: You were doing your usual and ignored my point about warp

Read the last post.

C9: you mean the TWO theives? the two chests arent even that far out of Marth's way btw

My mistake, my mistake. Also, Marth is possibly running towards Jeorge, not the boss here.

C12: Who said anything about it there? Marth uses a doorkey on the treasure room, gets somebody to help him kill the general, loot away

Meanwhile, Marth is no better than Ricakrd in this chapter, then.

generic unit #582762 attacking>>>Rickard not attacking

Rickard stealing > Generic attacking.

And furthermore backtracking to get treasure isn't even that much of a sin seeing as how the chapter will have already been in the bag: It hurts turncount yes, but in a way that does not damage your overall ability to actually BEAT the chapter, and having Rickard just do nothing wastes a slot and makes the chapter go slower anyway than a team that doesn't use Rickard. As stated, the turns Rickard saves are cancelled out by the ones he wastes.

Alright. Even going by that logic, the money Rickard will grab by picking locks means something.

The 25k argument isn't valid just because you think it is.

It isn't invalid just because you think it is.

Medea is in bottom tier. no freaking shit she sucks. Do you want a gold star next to your name or what?

It would make me feel better about myself. ;-;

[Colonel M]

Alright, so I actually sat down and pondered all the possibilities that Rickard could rise. After a while... there were few. Here's why:

C6: The chests are usually picked by the Thieves anyway so the most credit Rickard could get is Bullion.

C9: There are three chests (the Wyrmslayer, however, is hard to reach. Also FML @ chapter). These are still within route range so Marth can nab these.

C10: The Thief will at least plunder the first chest (which is a Levin Sword) and the other one is within reach.

C12: The only thing that I can think of is the Boots which is helluva ways away. There are two chests within the eastern stuff but everything toward the south COULD be plundered by Marth.

C14: Both are within route range (though... does the Archers have any chests near them? Doubting it).

Etc, etc.

Point being most of the stuff is within Marth's route range, so for the most part Thiefs + Chests would only matter in a few situations. Unfortunately... I think it's enough to warrant him where he is. Though I'd say him > Arran anyday.

Also nice to see that Bord is getting some appreciation.

---

(Wishes to argue Samson > Midia if possible once this stuff clears up).

Edited August 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

C12: The only thing that I can think of is the Boots which is helluva ways away. There are two chests within the eastern stuff but everything toward the south COULD be plundered by Marth.

Now someone carrying a Master Key and being mounted would definitely be better than anyone in this case because the Boots are so far away.

EDIT:

(Wishes to argue Samson > Midia if possible once this stuff clears up).

Would be pretty pointless. Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dat Nick]

hat doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Nobody ever grabs them? Alright. Marth and Julian down, right now.

I said that nobody ever gets assumed credit for them because anybody can take them, and the "anybody" list increases when you factor in thief kills and master keys.

And Marth/Julian's positions were never based upon their ability to open chests, nice try at trying to find a problem though

Even at her best, she's still doing fairly badly.

It's not stellar, but it's decent on most stuff

...Were you giving her silver, btw? I'd say she has it by now. And C17, next chapter, she gets longbows, which are always useful tools.

1 level a chapter isn't fair? She has no enemy phase, and her player phase is not good. The 1 level per chapter is the only part that matters, really.

You were saying she has shit EXP gain, which is untrue.

And no enemy phase? That would mean a lot more than it should if 85% of the units in the game weren't 2-3HKOd by everything.

Read the last post.

think that applies to you, actually

My mistake, my mistake. Also, Marth is possibly running towards Jeorge, not the boss here.

He can come back to Jeorge later, or be warped there.

Meanwhile, Marth is no better than Ricakrd in this chapter, then.

I don't recall saying he was?

Rickard stealing > Generic attacking.

WHEN there's something to steal, and WHEN he's stealing.

[Rodykitty]

She has no enemy phase

Neither does Rickard, dude.

Heck, Rickard doesn't even have a player phase.

[_____]

So basically, most of the cast.

For 10 items, sure. For the other 42...

"42" is not "half the chests in the game".

Remember that 21 chests thing? Yeah.

What you keep failing to grasp is that Medea's combat isn't even half as awful as Rickard's.

This isn't Midia's combat vs. Rickard's combat. This is Midia's combat vs. Ricakrd's utility.

so don't

Take a flier. Fly him or her over to the theif as he opens the first chest. Chuck a javelin at him. He'll open the second chest. Chuck another javelin at him or have the flier switch to steel. Boom. Dead thief. Both items acquired.

The stuff on the thief isn't on the H5 Enemy stats thread, so I can't really comment on when he shows up, but I don't think it's a long time from when Gharnef leaves. Also, mages spawn in the room, so that complicates things.

oh wow, two fucking armors

SO much to DO

No, I was saying that by the time the chests are reached, it should be, like, 5% of the chapter done, not 90% like you claimed.

And...save them from what? By the time you are where you are the reinforcements and Heimler should be dead, and you should have picked out your two members to save, if they aren't dead already.

The mages and Archers aren't going to kill themselves, as awesome as it would be.

The boss is a joke, as well.

Your point?

Ever hear of the term "lances"? That's 3 MT off of the swordies and there's a good chance Abel/Cain aren't getting doubled anymore.

Obviously you don't warp somebody there when the Cavaliers are still alive, that's just common sense.

Alright, fuck Chapter 6.

Yeah, except...

A: The generic deals damage before he dies, which could be enough for somebody to finish

B: Enemies waste time on the generic, and the generic can also act as a sacrifice to save time

C: unlike Rickard we don't care if they die so they're already contributing more

A.) Yay, 3 things. 5 turns still shaved off.

B.) Save time...? How so?

C.) Rickard isn't really in danger when he picks locks. The only enemy that could be troublesome would be the 14 Sniper.

The main point on generics was the funds.

Alright. Rickard's possible fund contributions - 2000~ is still a lot.

I'm tired of you blatantly favoring Rickard by giving him way more credit for thieving utility than he deserves.

How so? 42 chests that are exclusive to 3 units. One will not likely be played with Rickard. The other needs to be somewhere else. It's not that hard to see that Rickard is likely the one to pick these chests.

I'm not even going to attack the notion of how fucking ridiculous it is that you think it's fair to give him a MAJORITY or ALL of the chests in the game.

See above.

Also, I'll say it again. Even if Midia > Rickard, Ricakrd > Tomas was agreed upon.

[Rodykitty]

Also, I'll say it again. Even if Midia > Rickard, Ricakrd > Tomas was agreed upon.

And I undid this change.

[Colonel M]

Would be pretty pointless.

How so? Samson doesn't start as shitty as Midia does. He has combat utility, it just doesn't last as long as Astram's does (and don't dare say the words Midia has it).

[Rodykitty]

Would be pretty pointless.

How so? Samson doesn't start as shitty as Midia does. He has combat utility, it just doesn't last as long as Astram's does (and don't dare say the words Midia has it).

Oh, trust me. Trying to argue Samson > Midia is pointless. *wink*

[Colonel M]

Would be pretty pointless.

How so? Samson doesn't start as shitty as Midia does. He has combat utility, it just doesn't last as long as Astram's does (and don't dare say the words Midia has it).

Oh, trust me. Trying to argue Samson > Midia is pointless. *wink*

*Facepalm*.

Alright, guess I should go home and return to my family too.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Would be pretty pointless.

How so? Samson doesn't start as shitty as Midia does. He has combat utility, it just doesn't last as long as Astram's does (and don't dare say the words Midia has it).

Oh, trust me. Trying to argue Samson > Midia is pointless. *wink*

*Facepalm*.

Alright, guess I should go home and return to my family too.

I owe you a beer when we get back to base. Thanks for the backup.

Hunter!General is pretty much pwn....

[Rodykitty]

Hunter is the Cleric class of Class Set B.

[Colonel M]

Actually flipflop Castor and Bord and I think we're good to go.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Hunter is the Cleric class of Class Set B.

The difference is ... you don't end up strength screwed.

[Dat Nick]

This isn't Midia's combat vs. Rickard's combat. This is Midia's combat vs. Ricakrd's utility.

So stop overgeneralizing the issue with "Medea and Rickard are both combat failures"

The stuff on the thief isn't on the H5 Enemy stats thread, so I can't really comment on when he shows up, but I don't think it's a long time from when Gharnef leaves. Also, mages spawn in the room, so that complicates things.

only 1 mage a turn, which is easily clogged

No, I was saying that by the time the chests are reached, it should be, like, 5% of the chapter done, not 90% like you claimed.

Hm? You're going to let Heimler and the reinforcements sandwich you? That's basically asking for rape.

The mages and Archers aren't going to kill themselves, as awesome as it would be.

no, Cord/Abel/Cain and a few other guys kill them while Marth's opening the chests. Your point?

Your point?

My point that since there's only a piss easy boss left that the map might as well be 100% completed

B.) Save time...? How so?

How not? if he took a hit instead of Cord when both Cord and Barst needed to be healed, now Cord and Barst can both attack, which means more enemies attacked

C.) Rickard isn't really in danger when he picks locks. The only enemy that could be troublesome would be the 14 Sniper.

thats not the issue

the issue is that Rickard is 100% worthless when he isn't opening chests. A chest is not always in his movement range every turn.

[_____]

Alright, so I actually sat down and pondered all the possibilities that Rickard could rise. After a while... there were few. Here's why:

C6: The chests are usually picked by the Thieves anyway so the most credit Rickard could get is Bullion.

guiz rickard gets bullions

I gave up on Chapter 6.

C9: There are three chests (the Wyrmslayer, however, is hard to reach. Also FML @ chapter). These are still within route range so Marth can nab these.

Marth is possibly going to Jeorge, leaving the last two chests for Rickard.

C10: The Thief will at least plunder the first chest (which is a Levin Sword) and the other one is within reach.

Never mentioned it for a reason.

C12: The only thing that I can think of is the Boots which is helluva ways away. There are two chests within the eastern stuff but everything toward the south COULD be plundered by Marth.

It seems more efficient to leave Rickard in that room than Marth, don't you think?

C14: Both are within route range (though... does the Archers have any chests near them? Doubting it).

Marth has to go the complete opposite way to get the Thoron and recruit Palla/Catria. What are you talking about?

Etc, etc.

Point being most of the stuff is within Marth's route range, so for the most part Thiefs + Chests would only matter in a few situations. Unfortunately... I think it's enough to warrant him where he is.

I don't see it.

Now someone carrying a Master Key and being mounted would definitely be better than anyone in this case because the Boots are so far away.

Fuck the Boots.

I said that nobody ever gets assumed credit for them because anybody can take them, and the "anybody" list increases when you factor in thief kills and master keys.

Thief kills are kind of risky and oftentimes less efficient than just having Rickard or someone else steal them.

Maybe I'm presenting my argument the wrong way. What I'm trying to say is that Rickard has the possibility to steal all 52 chests in the game in one playthrough, not that he will always steal them. The fact that he has the possibility for this is enough to push him above Midia, who is failing at combat as well, but with no other utility to help her.

And Marth/Julian's positions were never based upon their ability to open chests, nice try at trying to find a problem though

I'm sure it helped them.

It's not stellar, but it's decent on most stuff

...Were you giving her silver, btw? I'd say she has it by now. And C17, next chapter, she gets longbows, which are always useful tools.

Decent is pushing it when compared to the rest of the team.

Yes, I was giving her Silver. Also, Longbows make her lose 4 MT which is a lot.

You were saying she has shit EXP gain, which is untrue.

Alright, disregard that statement.

And no enemy phase? That would mean a lot more than it should if 85% of the units in the game weren't 2-3HKOd by everything.

Even if they only face 1 enemy per enemy face, they are facing double the amount of enemies she faces in one turn, and they gain 1.5 levels a chapter at a lower level. It's fair.

think that applies to you, actually

I don't think so, Tim.

He can come back to Jeorge later, or be warped there.

Wasting a warp charge and forcing a unit to reach the village before the thief and fight off the pirates seems like a lot of work when we could just use Rickard.

I don't recall saying he was?

Just pointing that out.

WHEN there's something to steal, and WHEN he's stealing.

Which happens often enough to warrant Rickard > Midia.

Neither does Rickard, dude.

Heck, Rickard doesn't even have a player phase.

Did I say he did? Please stop bringing up irrelevant points, Chainey. BB is already doing all of the arguing for you, so why do you have to interject with these useless little comments?

[grandjackal]

Everyone, chill!

Goddamn, if I could describe this argument, it would be "A pair of eyes rolled to the side, a bag of cheetos, and the word Fuck". I'mma give you all an anaology.

The whole point of sending Rickard in to battle is to pick locks. We all know this. With how much keys are available at the ready along with the fact that enemy thieves themselves could do half the job for us+Marth and Master Keys. He would be deployed to pick these locks to sell the keys. However as shown, he does not save money because he derives us of generic weapon money. This means he has negative utility. He's dying in one shot from basically everything, and good luck having him kill anything. This means he's basically taking up a slot for generics in maps he's not deployed (since he sucks too much to ever be put in combat. Even when he is deployed, you have to make sure ABSOLUTELY NOTHING targets him, a problem Midia doesn't have to deal with). There are times he will just be sitting there on his ass, being useless.

This makes him Shanam without the shining stats and if he lost us money rather than saved half of it for when he bought stuff, as Shanam himself was not made to be targeted but at least Shanam could TAKE A SHOT! Rickard is just on a whole new level of fail. Like it's mind boggling.

Like how NO ONE brought up how we could also just choose to make Midia a Bishop for auto D staffs, then staff utility. What!? She has utility!? Guess Rickard can't win in any possible way!

Face it, Rickard is the aids baby of Arran and Est. I AGREE with this failure going below Est, for stated reasons. She can at least become something usable for the ever so minor point in time. Rickard is just a failure who robs us throughout most of the game, and does not a goddamn thing to make up for it.

Now knock it off.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Actually flipflop Castor and Bord and I think we're good to go.

Sorry for the double post. Not sure how to quote this in to my other post.

Bord has support options with cord/barst/ogma and gives out a support to cord/bord as well. Castor only has sheeda if I recall right. I think that pretty much nets him higher than castor.

[Colonel M]

Castor has D rank Bows too, so technically his Bow rank is more set than Bord's.

[Rodykitty]

Did I say he did? Please stop bringing up irrelevant points, Chainey. BB is already doing all of the arguing for you, so why do you have to interject with these useless little comments?

It's 100% relevant because you can't use no enemy phase as an argument against someone else that also has no enemy phase.

And holy crap, even Grandjackal knows Rickard is a new level of fail.

Like how NO ONE brought up how we could also just choose to make Midia a Bishop for auto D staffs, then staff utility. What!? She has utility!? Guess Rickard can't win in any possible way!

I brought it up earlier, but I think it's more fun to win the main argument first then use the Bishop argument to top the icing on the cake.

:)

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dat Nick]

Ninji is the only one opposed to Rickard's current position so I'm willing to just say to hell with it and shove Rickard below Est until (IF) more momentum can be gathered.

We can try to get him in his own tier later.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rickard below Est, I must disagree with.

Edited August 28, 2009 by ?!

[Colonel M]

Going below Est is another level of perspective though. Rickard can at least pick a random chest once in a rare while or open a door. Seriously, what the fuck can Est do? Disregard Triangle Attack because it takes 3 units to use.

I don't like defending the bastard, but let's not try to make fools of ourselves like we did with Arran.

[Dat Nick]

Fine fine fine fine, I'll agree that at least random chests before he gets offed for negative profit>Est.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Castor has D rank Bows too, so technically his Bow rank is more set than Bord's.

A rank bonus: 5 crit, 5 cev, 10 avoid, 10 hit

The crit bonus will give him the advantage in the lategame especially if bord/cord/barst/ogma were all in use at the same time. That gives him 15 extra crit. OUCH!

Besides bord should be getting B rank bows pretty quickly after promotion.

Edit: Hell with supports he could rise above darros.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Lancelot