H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

This isn't the point. Castor gets B Rank bows before Bord gets B Rank bows, yadayada. Bord's only real win over Castor is the supports ordeal, and that's about it. Castor simply gets the better bows faster.

---

Okay, I'm almost ready to say that Roger can simply pull Hunter->General setup and beat Athena, though personally I value Fighter->Hero Roger more...

20/1 - 39.7 HP | 17.2 Str | 7.8 Skl | 14.0 Spd | 14.0 Luck | 18.0 Def | 3.0 Res

Enough Spd to prevent being doubled by Paladins (a key crucial point) and still bragging some durability. The Paladins w/26 Atk is about the same harshness of a 22 Atk DracoKnight. Then again, this is base Roger (obviously will get some levels beforehand). In 1 Def level he's already making those a 4RKO.

Up to you guys, I guess.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

And I undid this change.

Which makes no sense because no arguments for Arran or Tomas > Rickard were ever brought up, so please change it back.

So stop overgeneralizing the issue with "Medea and Rickard are both combat failures"

Alright. Rickard sucks at combat.

Midia sucks at combat a less early on, but still sucks, sucks quite a bit less in the midgame, but still sucks, and then sucks a less later on, but still sucks.

Rickard has the unique ( only 3 people and 2 5 use keys can do this, so it's unique) ability to pick chests and doors, the latter mattering much more. When he picks a lock, he gives the team whatever item was in the chest, which is a positive. This can apply to any of the 42 chests that we aren't using the Master Keys on.

Is that better?

only 1 mage a turn, which is easily clogged

Clogging it means the thief can leave.

Hm? You're going to let Heimler and the reinforcements sandwich you? That's basically asking for rape.

You could always leave half of your troops at the gate to hold off the reinforcements, and have the other half take on Heimler and co.

no, Cord/Abel/Cain and a few other guys kill them while Marth's opening the chests. Your point?

Or, Rickard picks the chests while Marth fights. Everyone wins.

My point that since there's only a piss easy boss left that the map might as well be 100% completed

Whatever.

How not? if he took a hit instead of Cord when both Cord and Barst needed to be healed, now Cord and Barst can both attack, which means more enemies attacked

That seems a bit situational.

thats not the issue

the issue is that Rickard is 100% worthless when he isn't opening chests. A chest is not always in his movement range every turn.

Yes. An enemy is not always in Midia's range every turn. Midia is worthless in those turns. Your point?

The whole point of sending Rickard in to battle is to pick locks. We all know this. With how much keys are available at the ready

You mean the total 10 uses for 52 chests? Yeah, that's not going to cover it.

along with the fact that enemy thieves themselves could do half the job for us+Marth and Master Keys.

Enemy thieves are not as easily killed as you think, and most chests are out of Marth's way. Also, 10 key uses, etc.

He would be deployed to pick these locks to sell the keys. However as shown, he does not save money because he derives us of generic weapon money.

1 bullion would cover the cost entirely, and then some. ._. Hell, any item worth picking would cover the cost.

This means he has negative utility.

No, it doesn't.

He's dying in one shot from basically everything, and good luck having him kill anything.

Midia is dying in 1-2 shots and good luck having her kill anything, especially early on and later on.

This means he's basically taking up a slot for generics in maps he's not deployed (since he sucks too much to ever be put in combat.

Yes, this is a problem, but a minor one at best. A generic is better than Midia oftentimes, too. She's taking up a slot from a generic as well. Rickard is worse off, since he can't do anything in maps with no chests, but not by that much.

you have to make sure ABSOLUTELY NOTHING targets him, a problem Midia doesn't have to deal with).

Actually, she does have to put up with it a lot of the time.

There are times he will just be sitting there on his ass, being useless.

Like after he's done his job? The fact that he's done his job beats out that.

This makes him Shanam without the shining stats and if he lost us money rather than saved half of it for when he bought stuff

Except, you know, Rickard makes us quite a bit via things he can steal.

as Shanam himself was not made to be targeted but at least Shanam could TAKE A SHOT! Rickard is just on a whole new level of fail. Like it's mind boggling.

'K. Luckily, this isn't Shanam vs. Rickard. Midia also has fail durability.

Like how NO ONE brought up how we could also just choose to make Midia a Bishop for auto D staffs, then staff utility. What!? She has utility!? Guess Rickard can't win in any possible way!

D staves. Now 1RKO'd by everything like Rickard. No hope of becoming better. I am amazed. Rickard's lockpicking couldn't possibly beat sucking as a bishop.

Face it, Rickard is the aids baby of Arran and Est. I AGREE with this failure going below Est, for stated reasons. She can at least become something usable for the ever so minor point in time. Rickard is just a failure who robs us throughout most of the game, and does not a goddamn thing to make up for it.

Now knock it off.

Nope.

[_____]

It's 100% relevant because you can't use no enemy phase as an argument against someone else that also has no enemy phase.

I can't say "This Sniper has no enemy phase" if I'm defending a healer? How the fuck does that make sense?

[Rodykitty]

I can't say "This Sniper has no enemy phase" if I'm defending a healer? How the fuck does that make sense?

Rickard doesn't have an enemy phase either. He'll just eat an attack and die. No, there's no counter attacking, he's going to GET ONE HIT KO'D.

Sniper Midia gets hit and lives, that's more enemy phase than Rickard has.

[Colonel M]

Read my last post too.

Also, enemy thieves... might work against Rickard in many situations too. Just let them pick the chests and kill them after.

If IOS reads this sometime, I only want to ask why Athena > Roger was said when the post you made... leaned toward Roger's case.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rickard should be out of Est's tier and above Arran.

Edited August 28, 2009 by ?!

[Rodykitty]

Rickard should be out of Est's tier and above Arran.

Not going to happen (the out of Est's tier part, I mean).

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

Rickard doesn't have an enemy phase either. He'll just eat an attack and die. No, there's no counter attacking, he's going to GET ONE HIT KO'D.

Sniper Midia gets hit and lives, that's more enemy phase than Rickard has.

Only during the midgame. During the earlygame and lategame, she's just as bad as Rickard, durability-wise. Also, Rickard doesn't need to fight to have utility. Midia does. That's the difference.

Also, enemy thieves... might work against Rickard in many situations too. Just let them pick the chests and kill them after.

Chapter 6, Chapter 9, and Chapter 15 (maybe). Only. 8D

[Colonel M]

Chapter 19 too.

I dunno if Arran > Rickard is safe either. Rickard can stay but...

[Rodykitty]

Only during the midgame.

Try most of his entire game.

I looked at enemy stats. He's OHKO'd by every single unit in his opening chapter, and his durability almost doesn't improve over time. I also don't even see how you can even mutter that statement when Braves are an obvious death lategame.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rickard should be out of Est's tier and above Arran.

Not going to happen.

And why's that? Because you're absolutely hellbent on denying the fact that Rickard's thief utility comes at no real cost while Arran's combat is just plain worthless?

[Rodykitty]

Rickard should be out of Est's tier and above Arran.

Not going to happen.

And why's that? Because you're absolutely hellbent on denying the fact that Rickard's thief utility comes at no real cost while Arran's combat is just plain worthless?

You edited your post after I had said that, and thus had to edit mine. I don't disagree with Rickard > Arran, but I do think he should stay in that tier. Rickard fails hard in so many ways other than his thief utility.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

Chapter 19 too.

They'll open doors with enemies, too. Not worth the trouble.

Try most of his entire game.

I looked at enemy stats. He's OHKO'd by every single unit in his opening chapter, and his durability almost doesn't improve over time. I also don't even see how you can even mutter that statement when Braves are an obvious death lategame.

Chainey.

Midia is 1RKO'd by things in the earlygame and the lategame, too. That's what I was saying.

And why's that? Because you're absolutely hellbent on denying the fact that Rickard's thief utility comes at no real cost while Arran's combat is just plain worthless?

Now, see, I said that, Sirius, and you disagreed with me. I thought what we had was special. :'(

[Colonel M]

The only enemies in C19 that are behind doors are Hunters. LolHunters.

(Waits for IOS to appear out of nowhere).

[Rodykitty]

Chainey.

Midia is 1RKO'd by things in the earlygame and the lategame, too. That's what I was saying.

How so in the early game? She's not getting doubled as a Sniper (unless you don't level her up later on), and she has existing Defense and HP. She can definitely survive a round.

And attacking from range improves her durability even more.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

The only enemies in C19 that are behind doors are Hunters. LolHunters.

Alright, how about it takes a really, really long time? >_>

[_____]

How so? She's not getting doubled as a Sniper (unless you don't level her up later on), and she has existing Defense and HP. She can definitely survive a round.

Maybe earlygame on occasion, but once Braves roll around, she's ORKO'd. I showed the numbers already.

[Rodykitty]

How so? She's not getting doubled as a Sniper (unless you don't level her up later on), and she has existing Defense and HP. She can definitely survive a round.

Maybe earlygame on occasion, but once Braves roll around, she's ORKO'd. I showed the numbers already.

Which is still a far better situation than lolRickard.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

This isn't the point. Castor gets B Rank bows before Bord gets B Rank bows, yadayada. Bord's only real win over Castor is the supports ordeal, and that's about it. Castor simply gets the better bows faster.

---

Okay, I'm almost ready to say that Roger can simply pull Hunter->General setup and beat Athena, though personally I value Fighter->Hero Roger more...

20/1 - 39.7 HP | 17.2 Str | 7.8 Skl | 14.0 Spd | 14.0 Luck | 18.0 Def | 3.0 Res

Enough Spd to prevent being doubled by Paladins (a key crucial point) and still bragging some durability. The Paladins w/26 Atk is about the same harshness of a 22 Atk DracoKnight. Then again, this is base Roger (obviously will get some levels beforehand). In 1 Def level he's already making those a 4RKO.

Up to you guys, I guess.

I am getting off in a few mins so I don't have the time to debate that. I'll agree though that Castor is prob winning early/mid game due to his superior stats/weapon rank lead. It's just a question of whether or not bord's support utility (he gives out supports to two of the best units in the game where as castor only recieves from sheeda) and superior lategame performance with supports are equal to castor's early/midgame vantage.

I was thinking... you could prob make some sort of case for athena to promote early especially when you factor in her great bases. Thanks to being level 10 she should be generally better in some ways despite roger's superior tankiness as a general.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Lancelot

[_____]

Which is still a far better situation than lolRickard.

Not a once did I say that Ricakrd's enemy phase was better. I just said she had none, which is true. Rickard doesn't need an enemy phase to do what he does.

...

Actually, fuck it. Let other people raise Rickard above Arran or something like that. I'm tired, and you're just writing off the chest picking as "lolmarthcandoittoo", and you obviously won't change your mind about it, even though it doesn't make any sense, so, yeah, fuck it. I don't care.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Now, see, I said that, Sirius, and you disagreed with me. I thought what we had was special. :'(

That was during Midia vs Rickard.

You edited your post after I had said that, and thus had to edit mine. I don't disagree with Rickard > Arran, but I do think he should stay in that tier. Rickard fails hard in so many ways other than his thief utility.

I don't think he should stay in that tier. Arran and Est are worthless and you have to go out of your way to make use of them.

Even though his job can be done by buying keys and using Marth (and of course Julian), it's still usefulness at no real cost that can actually result in efficiency (speeds up whole door and chest opening so that Marth or others could do some combat instead) since its only cost is simply deploying him which is a cost shared by everyone in the entire freaking game if they want to be of use.

Usefulness that can actually result in efficiency does not seem like Est tier material.

Edited August 28, 2009 by ?!

[grandjackal]

She only need be level 11 to take a 27 ATK brave assault, the strongest kind there is. What level are you proposing she's at?

[Don Draper]

The only enemies in C19 that are behind doors are Hunters. LolHunters.

(Waits for IOS to appear out of nowhere).

*poof*

Sorry, refresh my memory, but are we talking about the Roger/Athena post? I believe I was just trying to approach it from an unbiased perspective.

I'm kind of not liking how Rody and his sidekick B2BD seem to have final say in everything with the tier list, no matter how convincing an arguement somebody else makes (Ninji). I think its time somebody else started to manage the tier list like ThunderMan if he's up to it. This just doesn't seem fair to somebody like Ninji who effectively argues his case using statistics, etc and gets a "lol no" in return.

[Dat Nick]

using statistics

If you say so...

Btw, I'd appreciate it if you left me out of accusations of bias. I can't control what Chainey thinks.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

I'm kind of not liking how Rody and his sidekick B2BD seem to have final say in everything with the tier list, no matter how convincing an arguement somebody else makes (Ninji). I think its time somebody else started to manage the tier list like ThunderMan if he's up to it. This just doesn't seem fair to somebody like Ninji who effectively argues his case using statistics, etc and gets a "lol no" in return.

That's because Ninji is overexaggerating the net gain Rickard has. Thief utility is seriously hurt by redundancy in this game, and his non existant combat abilities hurt him even more.

I won't deny that Rickard has utility, but I don't see it superior as Midia as a whole. Midia even has instautility herself as a Bishop. To argue that Rickard is better than Midia is absolutely absurd.

I'm going to put Rickard > Arran, but leave him in that tier for now. Even Est can do something, even if it's minute, so being in the same tier isn't so unreasonable for me.