H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

I think I'll do a type up of what everybody's base stats look like at 10/1.

[Colonel M]

I think one thing we must keep in mind is that not everyone will be 10/1 unless we're seriously holding back on the unit (or in Caesar and Roger's case pushing levels).

[Rodykitty]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some units that didn't care, but I'll put them at 10/1 anyway for simplicity's sake.

[Colonel M]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some units that didn't care, but I'll put them at 10/1 anyway for simplicity's sake.

The bigger ones would probably be Hunter->Generals...

Though Roger is a bit of a flipcard. Odd.

[Dat Nick]

Even with early promotion though, HP is the only stat Vyland can say he really wins vs Palla.

[Colonel M]

Even with early promotion though, HP is the only stat Vyland can say he really wins vs Palla.

And building more positive utility than Palla has? Not to mention Bow rank?

EDIT: Then Vyland has the better chance of doubling Paladins than Palla. Hell, he has a chance of doubling DRACOKNIGHTS!

Edited September 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

You're the only one actually posting in your favor currently, so yes, me Jackal and BB are everyone as far as I'm concerned.

Yay for being completely myopic, I guess?

As explained several times before, nobody ever said taking a seal wasn't a negative. It's just not any more of a problem than most of the other units using seals. When you compare a seal user to somebody who doesn't have to use a seal, that's when it's held against them.

Rickard vs. Tomas. Tomas wasn't penalized. Totally inconsistent.

I don't care about that argument anymore, but it matters here.

10 HP on units that have no business being attacked.

Awesome.

Basically no other differences, so being able to take another hit actually matters.

Awesome.

Depends what you can do after promotion. Darros and the boys have general and come in early enough to reach 10 without favoritism.

Erm, what? I'm talking about Minerva and Matthis. Darros is above both of them.

Matthis already rose up quite a bit because of Minerva.

And? Rising up farther is impossible because he's already risen?

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

Gordon>George

Go ahead. Ask me why.

[Rodykitty]

And? Rising up farther is impossible because he's already risen?

It means I already considered this alone. I would want to see some more in-depth comparisons with the characters around him first before we conclude Cleric is instant win for him.

Gordon>George

Go ahead. Ask me why.

Why-

Is he better than Bantu?

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dat Nick]

Rickard vs. Tomas. Tomas wasn't penalized. Totally inconsistent.

Tomas wasn't penalized because nobody cares that Rickard doesn't use a master seal since he's totally useless for combat. Unpromoted Tomas>Rickard, which is really kind of sad.

Basically no other differences, so being able to take another hit actually matters.

You really should stop dodging the point of my points. Not consuming a master seal>10 HP on units that very rarely get countered.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Joker

[_____]

It means I already considered this alone. I would want to see some more in-depth comparisons with the characters around him first before we conclude Cleric is instant win for him.

I wasn't saying that Cleric meant he was amazing.

Anyway, before I do a comparison, when do you think a realistic promotion time for Matthis would be? I'm thinking around Chapter 10, like Merric.

Tomas wasn't penalized because nobody cares that Rickard doesn't use a master seal since he's totally useless for combat. Unpromoted Tomas>Rickard, which is really kind of sad.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but OK. I really don't give a shit what kind of exception you try to make to justify it. Either taking a Master Seal matters or it doesn't. Either way, it supports one of my cases.

You really should stop dodging the point of my points. Not consuming a master seal>10 HP on units that very rarely get countered.

You really should stop twisting things to help your case.

I'll show the two different ways this can go.

1.) The Master Seal counts against Matthis.

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. That is a negative for him, but a minor one.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

I go back to bitching about Rickard > Tomas, because now, it's pretty clear.

2.) The Master Seal doesn't count at all.

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. No one gives a shit.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

I'm obviously going to look further into it, but I don't really see how Minerva's winning.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ninji

[Dat Nick]

Either taking a Master Seal matters or it doesn't. Either way, it supports one of my cases.

Taking a master seal matters when compared to units that don't use one. Yes, Rickard doesn't use one, but honestly, who gives a fuck? The man is useless at combat.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Question, what exactly are we seeing Bottom Tier as? Neutral utility? Negative Utility? Used at high or common cost and poor output?

Edited September 1, 2009 by ?!

[Dat Nick]

If we can't pin negative utility on Est, I think that's your answer...

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. That is a negative for him, but a minor one.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

I go back to bitching about Rickard > Tomas, because now, it's pretty clear.

2.) The Master Seal doesn't count at all.

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. No one gives a shit.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

Taking a master seal matters when compared to units that don't use one. Yes, Rickard doesn't use one, but honestly, who gives a fuck? The man is useless at combat.

Please stop side-stepping around this. It's getting irritating.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

Let's not forget the huge Axe rank advantage Minerva has which can improve her durability vs. Lances while still giving her decent offense.

Anyway, I'll close the tier gap between the two. Here is how we're going to do things: We're going to argue Vyland above Minerva. I just looked at Vyland using the same setup and it seems he gets a nice speed boost from it.

Question, what exactly are we seeing Bottom Tier as? Neutral utility? Negative Utility? Used at high or common cost and poor output?

Tier gaps are tier gaps. I see Nagi/Gotoh as the middle ground regardless of tier position.

I actually look at negative utility of characters if they're trained, even if they have positives that don't require EXP.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[grandjackal]

GLAD YOU ASKED! : D

You see, first off he's pretty good his forced chapters. Say he needs to be protected all you want, but no archer should be getting attacked anyways. Castor has one more base strength, but Gordon has plenty more time to get to C rank sooner. This gives him a +1 power boost and +5 Acc boost. Acc boost is helpful, but then he'd basically be packing Castor's same power with the same weapon.

Class change shows up. You recognize archer as a shitty class, but that's basically for anyone not starting off as one. See, no other archer will have C rank by now aside from Gordon. Castor just doesn't have the time. As an archer, this means he can get Longbows this soon. Yeah I know online shop isn't considered, but...Seriously, no one can have longbows this early. He's the only goddamn archer. "Get to the point already!" Ok fine! So you say he won't double. Granted. However, what archer WILL be doubling at this point? Not a damn one. They don't have access to steel bows either, nor C rank. So the only archer possibly capable of outdamaging Gordon is Castor. Might say others make better archers...And they don't. Speed growth is masturbatory for this class, as no one will ever double in a relevent amount of time. Well, anyone not Draug anyways. Basically he only starts to slow down in comparison to other people being archers when they start to get more strength. Since the first silver bow is with George anyways, the B rank Gordon would get to is a bit nil until chapter 10. However...

Level 13 promotion.

33 HP, 9 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Def, 3 Res

On top of this, he WILL have A rank by now. George only starts with B. This means that Gordon would do 3 more damage a shot (2 Str lead, extra rank adds another). One more speed, he can basically double anything. On top of this, he has a wopping 9 HP and 2 Def lead. Why's this matter for an archer? It doesn't. But...

Gordon 13/1 Dracoknight

29 HP, 10 Str, 9 Skill, 11 Speed, 8 Luck, 13 Def, 3 Res

Growths are pretty damn identical to Sniper anyways. He's already got A bows. However, lancers by now are doing what...25 Damage due to being cavs? Well with nothing, he's being 3RKOd. With axes...Same, but 2 more HP, 1 more def, he can be 4RKOd. With George, he'd have 2 less defense and 9 less HP. He's never doing this.

So yeah...Don't underestimate greeny. Archers seem to have the benefit of being great to prepromote...

[Dat Nick]

Anyway, I'll close the tier gap between the two. Here is how we're going to do things: We're going to argue Vyland above Minerva. I just looked at Vyland using the same setup and it seems he gets a nice speed boost from it.

What setup? You mean Curate>Sniper? Yeah, but now Vyland's STR sucks so bad that he can't use a Steel Bow without losing AS. He also has less base AS than Minerva [13.4] which isn't helping.

[Rodykitty]

Ctrl + F "Bantu."

Bantu not found.

:(

What setup? You mean Curate>Sniper? Yeah, but now Vyland's STR sucks so bad that he can't use a Steel Bow without losing AS. He also has less base AS than Minerva [13.4] which isn't helping.

Maybe, but I'm still seeing this better than Matthis at least. Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[grandjackal]

Ctrl + F "Bantu."

Bantu not found.

:(

Goddamn you're picky.

He's better than Bantu for A. Earlygame utility, and B. Being able to be better than George with the use of "use item". He'll be doubling with the same weapons sooner than Jeorge would be with better might, and can actually be tanky as a Draco pretty early.

Bantu is a nice wall for like 3 chapters. Even if we wanted to use him long term, he runs into the problem of how damn quick he runs out of his stones (being targeted at range depletes a stone despite the fact he's not countering). It's his only one until chapter 18. Gordon will be mauling him up until then.

Also, Draug and Marth supports.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

He's better than Bantu for A. Earlygame utility

Explain to me how Gordin's tiemframe for utility is better than Bantu's timeframe as a utility character.

....This oughta be good...

Bantu is a nice wall for like 3 chapters.

What ho! That's exactly the same amount of time Gordin is forced!

[grandjackal]

He's better than Bantu for A. Earlygame utility

Explain to me how Gordin's tiemframe for utility is better than Bantu's timeframe as a utility character.

....This oughta be good...

Bantu is a nice wall for like 3 chapters.

What ho! That's exactly the same amount of time Gordin is forced!

I hardly find Bantu's chapters much harder without him. Gordon can at least make the 1st chapter that much simpler to breathe through.

2. Heeeyyyy, Gordon's only a worse archer than Castor wants he gets a noticeable strength difference!

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Let's not forget the huge Axe rank advantage Minerva has which can improve her durability vs. Lances while still giving her decent offense.

Anyway, I'll close the tier gap between the two. Here is how we're going to do things: We're going to argue Vyland above Minerva. I just looked at Vyland using the same setup and it seems he gets a nice speed boost from it.

Question, what exactly are we seeing Bottom Tier as? Neutral utility? Negative Utility? Used at high or common cost and poor output?

Tier gaps are tier gaps. I see Nagi/Gotoh as the middle ground regardless of tier position.

I actually look at negative utility of characters if they're trained, even if they have positives that don't require EXP.

Well similar to how you place Gato and Nagi, I was thinking perhaps Rickard on bottom of Low or top of Bottom. I mean, looking at his friends in bottom tier, it looks they're just worthless combat units only a masochist would want to use >_>. Then look at who's at the bottom of Low tier, Elice. Yes I acknowledge that her A rank in staves is something but it's just there for C24, C24x and Final. While Rickard's utility is less significant to you (as you've made it apparent), it's there to help out efficiency for a longer period and just like with Elice's staff utility, it comes at no cost (unless you count fielding Julian in C6 as one but even then that's pretty minor).

Rickard closer to Elice.

[Rodykitty]

Nagi & Gotoh also have no period of suck, while Rickard's negatives outweigh his positives. "Help out with efficency" is something even the bottom tier characters can do by helping out with enemies in the later game.

Nagi & Gotoh could probably go lower depending on who is more of a positive than they are.

EDIT: Actually yeah, I'm gonna drop Elice. She's not using her A Staves anywhere near as long as Boah will.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Nagi & Gotoh also have no period of suck, while Rickard's negatives outweigh his positives. "Help out with efficency" is something even the bottom tier characters can do by helping out with enemies in the later game.

Nagi & Gotoh could probably go lower depending on who is more of a positive than they are.

Rickard's negatives (I'm assuming you mean combat) outweighing his positives when his positives can exist without ever having to encounter his negatives?

@Bold: Elaborate.

[Rodykitty]

Rickard's negatives (I'm assuming you mean combat) outweighing his positives when his positives can exist without ever having to encounter his negatives?

For tiering characters, yes. I look at the negatives to see why we're not putting characters in those situations in the first place.

@Bold: Elaborate.

They can eventually build workable stats. Nothing impressive, but still better than Rickard will ever be.

Regardless, Elice just got closer to Rickard. Her only relevant purposes are Ohm Staff and having an A Rank in staves in two/three chapters that, by now we know most of the game can get anyway. Their positions may actually switch too.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda