H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

If it's better for them to snipe at first, wouldn't it be better to keep them as horsemen till they get a couple levels under their belt?

They'd rather have general growths. Besides, they'd rather use steel lances. Javelin/Iron Bow is a failsafe more than anything else if the going gets rough for them and Merric's not free to heal.

They have mobility and better offense that way

LESS damage, actually. Lower strength base.

but he pretty much becomes FE10 Shinon later.

....FE10 Shinon in a game without crossbows, 1-3 range, or move on par with other characters.

In other words: Not that great.

They have more speed growth like this too, so it makes their starts as generals even faster.

Speed isn't an issue, really. All they need is enough not to get doubled. That's what they start getting later.

Not like their defense growth is absolutely horrid like this with 60% or so.

That's true.

But Zag would much rather have 110% def growth than 60%.

[grandjackal]

They'd rather have general growths. Besides, they'd rather use steel lances. Javelin/Iron Bow is a failsafe more than anything else if the going gets rough for them and Merric's not free to heal.

LESS damage, actually. Lower strength base.

....FE10 Shinon in a game without crossbows, 1-3 range, or move on par with other characters.

In other words: Not that great.

Speed isn't an issue, really. All they need is enough not to get doubled. That's what they start getting later.

That's true.

But Zag would much rather have 110% def growth than 60%.

True, but I think having someone with major mobility to save someone's ass in case they accidentally screwed up would be a benefit, right? Forgot they had lower base as Horsemen, my bad. I always see generals having meh base strength, but I guess it's cause I switch them immediately in normal mode, thus it's theory to me at best. As for Matthis, with his bad start but becomes pretty good later still is ncie as Shinon had the benefit of being pretty tanky, even though crossbows were only good as slayer things (with the various foe skills and flyers which were easy to kill with bows anyways), but that's why Matthis is lower mid and not top.

As for the defense growth, he's still likely to get 1 defense anyways. Besides, I'm suggesting we wait till Warren anyways. How many levels can he gain in the one chapter, like 1 at best? He's not really crying over spilled milk here. The better chance at speed though he's definitely liking though.

EDIT: Also, said stuff in response to Shiida.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Tino]

"really good def" is very important in H5, since you can't expect Abel/Cain/Frey to tank everything on the map.

I didn't say "really good Def", I said "all they really have is good Def". There's quite a difference between them. A Def stat isn't the only thing that makes a unit durable. Wolf and Zagaro are among the few units in your team who get doubled by almost everything, and if they don't, they usually take quite a load of damage anyway (usually because that enemy is a Mage or something).

stats

Chapter 8, huh? With their fail offense and high level, I guess they have gained a level by then, perhaps two.

??/4 Wolf: 18 Atk, 5 AS ,, 32 HP, 16 Def, 8 Avo

??/3 Zagaro: 19 Atk, 5 AS ,, 31 HP, 17 Def, 6 Avo

According to those enemy stats of yours, they're getting doubled by everything but Armors, and can't double anything themselves. Admittedly though, their durability is pretty good (though Cavaliers can three-round Wolf, which is something worth noting).

Offensively, Wolf three-rounds Cavaliers (four-rounds if they have one more Def), while Zagaro also three-rounds. They three-round Archers. In the best-case scenario, they five-round Armors (and in the worst-case scenario they six-round). Wolf four-rounds Horsemen, Zagaro three-rounds.

Sorry, but how is that any good?

Also, let's see how others fare offensively. You know, those dudes you have below them, starting with Marich... Never mind. Not Marich. Wolf and Zagaro are definitely better than Marich. Then there's Barts.

10/0 Barts

Steel Axe: 23 Atk, 11 AS

He two-rounds Cavaliers, two-rounds Archers, three-rounds Armors (or with very bad luck, four-rounds if the Armor has 34 HP/12 Def), and two-rounds Horsemen (three-rounds if they have 35 HP). That's quite a lot better than what Wolf and Zagaro have, no?

10/0 Abel

Steel Lance: 19 Atk, 12 AS

Admittedly, Abel's offense isn't much better than Wolf's or Zagaro's, except that he doubles those Armors, which does give him a slight offensive edge.

10/0 Kain

Steel Lance: 19 Atk, 11 AS

Same story as with Abel.

11/0 Oguma

Steel Sword: 17 Atk, 14 AS

Yes, Oguma is actually doubling things, which means he definitely has better offense than Wolf and Zagaro. He two-rounds everything on the map, except for Armors (which he four-rounds) and Horsemen (which he also four-rounds). Definitely better than anything Wolf and Zagaro can pull off.

10/0 Marth

Steel Sword: 18 Atk, 12 AS

Rapier: 14(22) Atk, 12 AS

I see him three-round Cavaliers, and with one more point of Str (he has about a 25% chance to have that), he can even two-round. He's three-rounding Archers, and he also two-rounds Armors. Horsemen are suddenly also garbage with their high HP, because Marth effectively three-rounds them (two-rounds with one more Str).

10/0 Sheeda

Steel Lance: 15 Atk, 16 AS

Wing Spear: 14(22) Atk, 19 AS

So Sheeda is raping pretty badly here. She two-rounds Cavaliers (and with one more Str, she even one-rounds, and she has a 27% chance of having that), three-rounds Archers, two-rounds Armors (one-rounds with one more Str), and also two-rounds Horsemen (one-rounds with one more Str).

10/0 Hardin

Steel Lance: 19 Atk, 10 AS

Same as with Abel and Kain.

So from this I can conclude that Wolf and Zagaro are quite likely your worst offensive units at your disposal (I didn't compare them to Marich, but when you look solely at offense, then Marich is better as well). Now, you can start bawwing at me because I didn't mention durability, but I admit, they're better defensively. However, defensive capabilities aren't the only things you need to look at: it's offense that kills enemies, not durability, and all the units I mentioned are durable enough to survive the relatively few enemies in Chapter 8.

Later on, yes, they're pretty good, but it's less special by then, because more and more units start doubling, start dying a lot slower than before, also get access to Silver, etc. Also, they aren't very mobile. Abel, Kain, Sheeda and Hardin are all very flexible, and Marth, Oguma and Barts also have mobility leads on them.

Oh yeah, and Rena is better than Wolf and Zagaro as well, because I value her healing and other staff utility more than Wolf and Zagaro's meh-ish earlygame performance and good performance everywhere else, when all the units I mentioned are starting to become very good anyway, thanks to doubling, not dying very quickly, good mobility, etc.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Tino

[Don Draper]

Curate Merric>Cleric Rena though.

The former beats Lena in everything but LOL Luck until around promotion time when Lena will have around a...1 Mag lead. Meanwhile, Merric has an enormous durablility lead (More HP and defense), and more speed which means he's doubling far more often.

[Tino]

Read Levin and my debate and counter my points on why Marich shouldn't be a Curate, then we'll continue talking about Marich and Rena.

[grandjackal]

Curate Merric>Cleric Rena though.

The former beats Lena in everything but LOL Luck until around promotion time when Lena will have around a...1 Mag lead. Meanwhile, Merric has an enormous durablility lead (More HP and defense), and more speed which means he's doubling far more often.

What happens to Excalibur then?

[Tino]

What happens to Excalibur then?

Saved for later, obviously. Excalibur isn't a Marich-exclusive tome.

[grandjackal]

Saved for later, obviously. Excalibur isn't a Marich-exclusive tome.

It's also male exclusive and a B level tome, what male mage is gonna put it to good use in merciles outside of Maric who can use it immediately?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's also male exclusive and a B level tome, what male mage is gonna put it to good use in merciles outside of Maric who can use it immediately?

Wendell and Etzel are capable of using it right off the bat.

[grandjackal]

Wendell and Etzel are capable of using it right off the bat.

Etzel is lol, Wendell though....ok yeah, he's got a good start all things considered.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Etzel is lol, Wendell though....ok yeah, he's got a good start all things considered.

Etzel can easily replace Wendell >_>. Marich's doing good enough with the other tomes so Excalibur would be good on Etzel.

[grandjackal]

Etzel can easily replace Wendell >_>. Marich's doing good enough with the other tomes so Excalibur would be good on Etzel.

How the hell could you replace pope benedict? ...Anyone notice how he looked like pope john paul the third in the past, now looks like pope benedict?

But either way, fine. Etzel can have it, but...why would you use him anyways when he's inferior than most mages anyways? He comes late, doesn't he?

[Tino]

At least Wendel is quite a good unit. I'm not too sure about Etzel.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How the hell could you replace pope benedict? ...Anyone notice how he looked like pope john paul the third in the past, now looks like pope benedict?

But either way, fine. Etzel can have it, but...why would you use him anyways when he's inferior than most mages anyways? He comes late, doesn't he?

I'm not trying to argue that Etzel >>> Wendell or anything of the sort, here's my logic behind me using Etzel.

1. Wendell becomes obsolete, complete crap since his magic isn't growing and I'm only gonna have him do damage for a few chapters.

2. I always go to the gaidens. I kill off Wendell to access chapter 17x and I get some1 to replace him + all the EXP and items from the chapter, nice trade off IMO.

3. I like having 4 Warp staff users... Etzel has D and it doesn't take long to get it to C.

4. They both suck and neither of them are doubling so Etzel's higher MAG wins. There's the fact that Etzel may get doubled when Wendell won't be but I never have either of them take a hit unless I know for sure they can survive >_>.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Levin

[grandjackal]

I'm not trying to argue that Etzel >>> Wendell or anything of the sort, here's my logic behind me using Etzel.

1. Wendell becomes obsolete, complete crap since his magic isn't growing and I'm only gonna have him do damage for a few chapters.

2. I always go to the gaidens. I kill off Wendell to access chapter 17x and I get some1 to replace him + all the EXP and items from the chapter, nice trade off IMO.

3. I like having 4 Warp staff users... Etzel has D and it doesn't take long to get it to C.

4. They both suck and neither of them are doubling so Etzel's higher MAG wins. There's the fact that Etzel may get doubled when Wendell won't be but I never have either of them take a hit unless I know for sure they can survive >_>.

Good point, as I doubt either of them are gonna be taking brave shots...

[Rodykitty]

It's already established that they struggle early on. This is when you give them a couple of levels as Hero first to keep them from being doubled. They gain defense as Hero, then switch to General and suddenly being doubled matters far less because their defense and HP is high enough for them to survive and be used as lures for your other characters to take advantage of safely.

Then as they gain levels, their ability to trivialize the game increases. Tinking every thing means that they can just walk into a group of enemies and walk out without a scratch. Sure, they may not be doubling everything, but it makes it extremely easy for your other units to kill those he weakens.

Merric can just switch to Mage during chapters where he would want to use Excalibur (which is like one, maybe two chapters before he promotes.) Then he switches back.

[Tino]

You have both Wolf and Zagaro. Only one of them will be able to actually level as a Hero, so one of them is still going to suffer either way, making this reclassing to Hero no more beneficial at all.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wolf should be the one to go Merc then since Zagaro's easily ending up with more DEF. Or wait... Zagaro would end up with 85% DEF growth so it may be wiser to make him the Hero since 90% DEF growth on Wolf would be better than 65% (IIRC) as hero.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Levin

[Tino]

Either way, my points still stand. They haven't been proven wrong.

[Rodykitty]

You have both Wolf and Zagaro. Only one of them will be able to actually level as a Hero, so one of them is still going to suffer either way, making this reclassing to Hero no more beneficial at all.

Usually they both aren't being used. One is enough.

Even if you can't change Zagaro into a Hero temporarily, all that means is that you'll have to be more careful giving him levels, but it's still very possible. Depend on weakening enemies for EXP, and the occasional kill he can get. Yes, he gains EXP slowly but also remember that one level for Zagaro is about 2 or 3 levels worth for most other characters, so it evens out.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Chainey

[Don Draper]

Read Levin and my debate and counter my points on why Marich shouldn't be a Curate, then we'll continue talking about Marich and Rena.

That's not necessary, as Levin already had a better arguement then you as to why Merric should be a Curate.

[Dat Nick]

Chapter 8, huh? With their fail offense and high level, I guess they have gained a level by then, perhaps two.

We're talking 13 EXP a kill on average. Please, they are hardly EXP pigs.

Admittedly though, their durability is pretty good

Thank you.

You just proven my entire argument right. And you even did it with Z and Wolf at lower levels than you originally wanted.

Sorry, but how is that any good?

It's good because they can tank. Later on this escalates to tinking everything on the map and 2RKOing with silver lances.

However, defensive capabilities aren't the only things you need to look at: it's offense that kills enemies

and their offense is pretty damn good in just a few more levels, meaning 2 rounds and getting doubled less.

and all the units I mentioned are durable enough to survive the relatively few enemies in Chapter 8.

Yes.

few enemies wtf.

The're quite a lot of them, plus they travel in short mobs that can seriously f you up.

Furthermore...no, a lot of them don't have that good durability. Shiida is fucked. Period. especially around the horsemen.

start dying a lot slower than before

Still dying pretty fast.

and good performance everywhere else

"good" everywhere else? Major understatement. Try "epic pwnage."

Sheeda and Hardin are all very flexible

abel and kain, well we're kinda debating that now

Shiida? Try saying that in a few chapters. Shiida's losing her edge now, and it's going to be gone sooner or later.

Barts also have mobility leads on them.

not until Barst promotes

also get access to Silver

not the point i'm making

point I'm making is that it'll allow Z/W to 2RKO everything on the map, for sure, and even one round slower enemies.

Sure, Cain/Abel whatnot will 1RKO...IF they double.

Read Levin and my debate and counter my points on why Marich shouldn't be a Curate, then we'll continue talking about Marich and Rena.

too lazy

post here

[Rodykitty]

too lazy

post here

The debate is similar to a lot of arguments we've already been though.

[Dat Nick]

lessee

C5?

Michael Keaton tier:

Barst

Ogma

Shiida

Abel

Cain

Wendell

Lena

Merric

God Tier:

Riff

Marth

Hardain

Nabarl

Jagen

Mid tier:

Castor

Daros

Cord

Bord

Matthis

Roshea

Vyland

Low tier:

Wolf

Zagaro

Gordin

Draug

Julian

Edited March 4, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Abel above Cain (Ridersbane is usable). Barst probably above Ogma, he may not double the 9 SPD people here.