The big promo path topic

[Mekkah]

There is. Though that obviously also takes extra time to visit, and you don't have Silver Card yet, so it's as costly as using the Master Seal in Ch15.

[Vykan12]

True, though that could be considered superior to prolonging a desired promotion.

Also, are you going to consider choices for CC? I see on gfaqs people constantly insisting Lute should be MK for in-game and Sage for CC, though I think MK is better in both cases.

[Mekkah]

I'm talking about main game only. Taking CC into account would be much like taking Link Arena or Trial Maps or something into account.

[Lord Raven]

Taking CC into account means that it becomes an availability tier list.

[Vykan12]

I meant taking them into account separately. Cuz, ya know, there are some people who actually care about post-game stuff.

[Lord Raven]

Then it's like "who needs the least stat boosters at 20/20 to be good" <_< CC can be abused infinitely, Arenas even then are someone finite.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

I meant taking them into account separately. Cuz, ya know, there are some people who actually care about post-game stuff.

In that case, Nathan's right, 20/20 stats matter more than anything, and caps come into play as well. I'm not saying we shouldn't, it would just be a separate discussion entirely.

[Mekkah]

For CC only, ruling out the Boots trick, the things I'd change are:

- Cormag to Wyvern Lord, since swords matter more than Pierce and stats now (now he can have WTA over Cyclops/Maelduin etc, whereas I don't see how anything else would make a difference)

- Ewan and Lute to Sage, so they can use Light magic

- Kyle and Forde to Paladin for the extra movement, meaning more enemy exposal

- L'Arachel definitely as a Valkyrie now, for Light magic

[Reaver]

Colm is a thief. He does his job (stealing/chests) fine without being promoted. There are enough lockpicks available, iirc. Joshua/Gerik are melee units, so they need the promotion bonuses more than him since they will be facing much more combat.

True, but that also makes the underlying assumption that Colm can never fight, which I find to be completely untrue. If you promote Colm, the obvious route is Assassin simply because he needs the +15 critical. He loses the ability to steal - I'll be the last person to deny this - but he can still use lockpicks and he's fighting well. With A Neimi and a possible B Moulder, Colm's getting +5 ATK and 20 CRT. To compare his fighting prowess to someone, oh, say Joshua:

Joshua Swordmaster

Colm Assassin

Let's assume 20/5 Joshua v. 20/1 Colm because a slight level lead should exist. Joshua's got ~19 STR; Colm has ~17. Both will have high HIT. In terms of EVA, Colm has an edge with a higher LUK score; both have very high speed scores and get 12 EVA from full supports. The ~6 EVA Joshua gets from a higher SPD score is offset, to an extent, by Colm's +3 in LUK. Where Colm's 65% (to Joshua's 55%) speed growth will work to close the EVA gap, his 45% LUK growth (to Joshua's 30%) will further put him ahead. Ultimately at this stage it's +3 EVA to Joshua, but this gap will soon close. In terms of CRT, Joshua's 11 point skill lead looks very, very difficult to top immediately. However, Joshua only gets +12 CRT from supports and Colm gets +20; the +5.5 from Joshua's SKL is beaten by Colm's +8 in supports. So they're offensively very similar and both putting out good numbers; Colm can certainly fight.

Understandably Gerik/Joshua also need promotion bonuses, but since Colm is also fighting to a proficient level it's not as big a loss. The argument certainly works both ways.

The difference is that Colm is only one unit that can still do what he's made for pretty much equally well without promoting. Hero Cresters are larger in numbers, and want their promo bonuses ASAP (especially Joshua for the 15% crit and Gerik for the axes).

Yes, Colm can steal. But Colm wants these promotion bonuses as well and, as proven, he's fighting at a pretty strong level. Plus Rennac can now be fielded should you really need to steal something.

Ch16 is pretty damn late to promote, especially since the crest is in a chest at the end of the map. That means they only have five chapters left to perform promoted.

Let's assume 2 levels per chapter for average character growth: that puts Joshua's promotion at Chapter 11. In Eirika's mode, that puts Gerik's promotion at Chapter 15. Ephraim's mode and Gerik's not promoting until 17. Obviously, however, 2 levels/chapter is a bit steep, further pushing these numbers back. I don't think it's "damn late" to promote in lieu of when characters hit 20/0; although early promotion is an available option the EXP cut isn't worth the preformance boost.

In terms of CC, it ultimately makes all characters equal because you can raise them all to 20/20, buy promotion items with the spoils in the tower, and have infinite promotion items. Furthermore, since every character is fielded, supports go differently because you can choose to reap the best bonuses rather than worry about availability and the likelihood a certain character will be played, which obviously changes things. The argument becomes mostly availability, as once you get a character they're all so powered up that they're killing everything anyway. However, this gives staff-users a much greater edge bcause they're not only killing everything but also healing: the dual function gives an advantage. Colm can also take the rogue route over the assassin route, as now he's killing everything at 20/20 starting at Chapter 9 anway, and has stealing AND combat. CC changes things dramatically.

[Mekkah]

True, but that also makes the underlying assumption that Colm can never fight, which I find to be completely untrue. If you promote Colm, the obvious route is Assassin simply because he needs the +15 critical.

I hope you're not under the impression that Assassin gives him 15% crit, because it doesn't.

Anyway, you are missing the point. Raising Colm is fun and all, but the only time you're getting any pay-off out of it is when he's fighting, and he fights less than others. So less benefit.

Let's assume 2 levels per chapter for average character growth: that puts Joshua's promotion at Chapter 11

I don't think it's "damn late" to promote in lieu of when characters hit 20/0; although early promotion is an available option the EXP cut isn't worth the preformance boost.

Read what I said:

is quite late in a game where promoting ASAP gives such huge benefits.

There is little to no reason to not promote when you're at like anywhere between 15/0 and 20/0. A 16/0 unit killing a 13/0 enemy gains 20 exp, an 18/0 unit gains 13, a --/1 unit gains 7. That's a gap of 13 exp between 16/0 and --/1, and a gap of 6 exp between 18/0 and --/1. Roughly 7-8 enemies needed for the former to get one extra level, and roughly 16-17 for the latter. And all for just that extra level-up or something a lot later, which is +1 in some stats, sometimes likely unimportant stats due to people capping Spd before promo or something like that. Whereas an immediate promo bonus would have given them between +1 and +3, sometimes +4 in every stat, including things like movement and constitution, and extra weapons for more power/range which they can also build up sooner.

[Reaver]

I hope you're not under the impression that Assassin gives him 15% crit, because it doesn't.

Facepalm. Good job to call me on that. It changes my assessment: Joshua has +12 CRT and has better offensive preformance. Colm's not doing bad, obvioulsy, when he's got over 50% Critical, which means he's got a strong chance of getting 1 critical, which is usually all that's necessary. I think going by his 20/1 stats he has about 60 critical (20 Supports + 30 KE + 5 S-Rank Swords + ~5 from skill), so even at that he has an 84% chance of getting at least 1 critical in a round of combat, which should be enough in most cases.

Anyway, you are missing the point. Raising Colm is fun and all, but the only time you're getting any pay-off out of it is when he's fighting, and he fights less than others. So less benefit.

Well, since my assessment was wrong: rogue is now a valid promotional path. OHKO's 30% of the time are nice, but in many cases may be overkill; the ability to steal outweighs this. So now that Colm is a rogue, he's very useful for not only for his 8-sight in fog, chests, and doors, but also for stealing. To steal, you need to be close enough to units so you can get da goods, thus Colm will be seeing a lot of combat.

Understandably, Colm does need to go after chests. But, how much of an impact does this have? According to data From Serene's Forest, let's check and see how many chests are really going to drag Colm away from combat:

[Note: Given = Colm is dragged away from Combat]

Chapter 3: Given

Chapter 8: Eirika's troops are going to rush forward to that one singular chest and meet Ephraim/Forde/Kyle on the other side. Colm will get a lot of combat exposure in this map unless he follows Ephraim/Kyle/Forde, then he'll see limited exposure because Kyle/Forde will charge ahead.

Chapter 9B: Colm needs to charge up that middle hallway: he's getting a lot of combat exposure.

Chapter 11A: Colm is getting a lot of combat exposure for both fog and chests in the middle of the action.

Chapter 11B: Fog = Good Combat

Chapter 14A: Colm will see a decent amount of combat going for all the chests simply because there are so many.

Chapter 14B: Colm will see a lot of combat going for all the chests.

Chapter 16: A lot of chests and a lot of combat; you won't go after those three up top until it's basically only Orson.

Chapter 19: Colm will see a lot of combat going either way.

Final Chapter 1: Given; you're army's just gonna rush ahead and fuck Lyon's shit up.

I didn't take into account stealing, which will further upgrade how much combat he sees beacuse he'll need to be close enough to get "da goods".

If you early-promote Colm, he's just saving you money from lockpicks and whatever.

[Martelé]

I wasn't implying that Colm never fights, but whatever. >_>

I think going by his 20/1 stats he has about 60 critical (20 Supports + 30 KE + 5 S-Rank Swords + ~5 from skill), so even at that he has an 84% chance of getting at least 1 critical in a round of combat, which should be enough in most cases.

To steal, you need to be close enough to units so you can get da goods, thus Colm will be seeing a lot of combat.

I agree on that he has to be close to the enemies, but he's still fighting less than your other units. What you said about his offense assumes that his support partners are near him. So this means that Colm steals something in the player's phase while his supportpartners kill the enemy = less combat for him than for your other units.

So now that Colm is a rogue, he's very useful for not only for his 8-sight in fog, chests, and doors, but also for stealing.

This is exactly what he does before promotion.

And your post just says that promoting Colm makes sense, not that it makes more sense than promoting someone with a Hero's Crest.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Marorii

[Icon of Sin]

- Cormag to Wyvern Lord, since swords matter more than Pierce and stats now (now he can have WTA over Cyclops/Maelduin etc, whereas I don't see how anything else would make a difference)

I don't know. Is WTA that much more important than the occasional Pierce on things like Cyclops and Elder Baels? He doesn't need the additional speed that much except maybe against Gwyllgis, I suppose. The additionnal speed also means 10 more avoid maximum vs. the annoying Dark magic which is a lot more annoying than most other monsters.

[Reaver]

I agree on that he has to be close to the enemies, but he's still fighting less than your other units. What you said about his offense assumes that his support partners are near him. So this means that Colm steals something in the player's phase while his supportpartners kill the enemy = less combat for him than for your other units.

So one less turn of fighting per chapter or something? I found that he can steal up to 7 items (including Amelia's speedwings). So he's losing 1 turn of combat every few chapters to steal; this won't ultimately impact his preformance too much.

And your post just says that promoting Colm makes sense, not that it makes more sense than promoting someone with a Hero's Crest.

If Colm can fight roughly on par with someone who promotes with a Hero Crest, then it makes more sense to promote a unit who has utility as well as combat skills.

[Mekkah]

Regardless of how much he has of each, how does it make more sense to promote someone with both utility and combat than to promote someone with just combat? It's about what they gain in promotion. What they could already do is irrelevant when deciding promotion path. Colm doesn't even gain movement upon promotion.

[Reaver]

Simple: if possible you want to restrict your team to the fewest amount of units necessary to complete the objective. If Unit A can fight and Unit B can fight to a roughly equivalent proficiency and preform another necessary and useful action, why not use Unit B instead of Unit A? Unit B has advantages, after all, so what reason do we have to cripple Unit B so Unit A can flourish? Before I get the argument that "Unit B can use his ability without being affected if he's not promoted", you've shortchanged his ability to fight: which is still important in this case.

Promotion is also not about what you gain on promotion. By that logic, it makes more sense to promote Gilliam than Franz; both gain stats, but Gilliam gets swords, axes, and +2 MOV whereas Franz only gets Axes and -1 MOV. I would definetely assert that preformance is also a major issue dictating promotion when promotion items are limited: think survival of the fittest.

[Mekkah]

Simple: if possible you want to restrict your team to the fewest amount of units necessary to complete the objective. If Unit A can fight and Unit B can fight to a roughly equivalent proficiency and preform another necessary and useful action, why not use Unit B instead of Unit A?

Because this is not about using unit B instead of unit A. It is about promoting either of them. You get a fighting improvement either way, and you can keep lockpicking with the same efficiency either way. But Joshua fights more than Colm, and also gains more than Colm (15% crit and 1 more movement versus...not having to use Lockpicks).

Of course, when comparing the two in a debaet, they would both have to be promoted whenever they want and can without impeding others.

Promotion is also not about what you gain on promotion. By that logic, it makes more sense to promote Gilliam than Franz; both gain stats, but Gilliam gets swords, axes, and +2 MOV whereas Franz only gets Axes and -1 MOV. I would definetely assert that preformance is also a major issue dictating promotion when promotion items are limited: think survival of the fittest.

It's not about promoting either one or the other - in their case, it's about who promotes first. And yes, it makes much more sense to promote Gilliam earlier, as he gains much more from it. Though again, if they're being compared, they both get a promo item when they want to.