FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

What about Largo into Mid?

It's not gonna happen with that last argument you presented as I agree with Cynthia, too many KW level ups for him in that comparison.

How about I give him 10 levels with the KW? The other 7 I'll give him a speed band. That gives him +3.35 Speed. Which means he has 16.35 AS. Since chapter 21 is filled with wyvern's he doesn't struggle to double, then there are generals/knight in that chapter too and sages with heavy tomes, too. See, he still doesn't struggle to double. Then, Brom is still more durable.

For the level 13 comparison, let's Give brom another 5 KW uses since everyone's durabiltiy issues have vanished as have AS issues, most likely. And 3 more with a speed band. This means he has gained a total of 5 more AS. 20 AS is good pre-endgame. (Halbs have 14 AS, Warriors have 12-13 AS, Snipers have 14-16 AS and Tigers have 16 AS. Calill can't double either Swordmasters with thier 18AS, cats with their 18-19 AS or ravens with thier 21-22 AS). Thus, Brom is still superier.

For the level 15 comparison, let's give him another 2 levels with KW. Sounds generous, but all doubling/durability issues will have all but vanished by thsi point with people's supports and growths kicking in. This means that Brom has used a mere 17/27 Levels with the KW. Not too much IMO. This means he gets +5.6 AS. Level 20/15 brom with that AS boost has 21 AS. That 21 AS is enougth to double Halberdiers all throughout the game, it's enougth to double warriors until endgame, level 10 or below Snipers, all generals and wyverns and enougth to double level 12 or below Tigers.

Brom still does well even with less KW usage.

[-Cynthia-]

^ If we give Callil a speed band for all her levelups (fair is fair), she hits 22 AS, so she's doubling SM's and some Cats. Callil does more damage against most of the enemies they both double (Generals, Wyvern Lords, Tigers all have Def Res gaps of 11+), so she wins offense against almost every enemy type.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

What about Largo into Mid?

Consider this.

Largo lv --/7 (silver axe): 52 hp, 37 atk, 25 crit, 112 hit, 20 AS, 12 lck, 10 def, 3 res, 52 avo

The guy has major durability problems. He probably has the lowest res of any fielded unit, so mages are going to prioritize him as a target, which includes siege tomes, sleep staves, etc. They only need 21 atk to 3HKO him and 29 to 2HKO, which is pretty awful. He also probably has the lowest def of any frontline unit you’re ever going to field, so the same issue applies there. One ballista hit later, and Largo is potentially OHKOed. Or, take a tiger attack, and the same thing pretty much applies.

Oh, and just for laughs, 20/11 Calill ties him in def. That’s how bad his concrete durability is. Basically, Largo is restrained to killing enemies at range with a hand axe much like a backliner needs to attack at range and hope for protection. Considering how much playtime Largo has, that’s very unremarkable. Lower-mid seems fine for him.

Edit: Oh yeah, I listed his hit and luck for a reason. The enemy only needs 13+ avo for him to have the possibility of missing, and that hurts his durability in various ways (missing a finishing attack, for instance). The luck isn't particularly low, but he's still seeing some low% crit chances that could potentially kill him instantly.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I could see Largo moving above Tormod, maybe to the bottom of Lower Mid, but not above Sothe IMO.

Sothe has 6 chapters where he's useful (13 ,15 ,16 ,21 ,22 ,26). There are other maps with things to steal/chests, but few enough that Volke can get them all without wasting time, and Volke outclasses Sothe due to higher durability and marginally more offense.

Largo only has 5 chapters total. He's pretty average in these as a combat unit, which probably doesn't make up for the 6 chapters of theiving utility Sothe has.

On a side note, Volke might be overrated. The only thing he has over Sothe is a little more durability, his performance in Ch10 (Volke doesn't do much in 11), and the possibility to have very crappy offense,as opposed to no offense. Sothe kind of wins supports, though they're not very useful so that doesn't matter much. I just don't see what makes two tiers of difference between the two when they essentially perform the same function, but Volke has 1 more chapter of it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

So, Volke down to being above Sothe and Largo below Sothe? Any1 disagree?

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

Volke to above Sothe is dropping him by almost 2 tiers. If they are to be closer together, then Sothe should move up.

I have a post about all the stuff thieving nets you, I can dig it up if needed.

[-Cynthia-]

I wasn't suggesting Volke move down that far, though moving Sothe up to two spots from High seems somewhat ridiculous as well. They should probably both be somewhere in Lower Mid. I'd like to see the list Vykan, though remember that we can do the same thing with Chest Keys. Doors are pretty easily broken and Door Keys are plentiful.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[soundecho]

I'd like to address all the Brom KW sandbagging going around here. First look at all the units that can use it. Oscar + Kieran always get it during BEXP. Astrid can get 10 levels of BEXP with the KW so she certainly doesn't need it. Makalov can get it for 5~ levels of BEXP. Brom sucks, and Devdan sucks less.

Even if you did field Devdan and such, this doesn't stop Brom from getting it during the most important time. A level up.

Second of all, when you are making a team, you aren't going to make a team that doesn't work well together.

E.g your not just gonna throw a bunch of units together who can't support each other.

[-Cynthia-]

^ I wasn't aware "sucking' qualified you for resources.

[soundecho]

Exactly how does Brom suck again o.O?

Edit: Unless you are referring about Devdan. It's that better units will have a better chance of being fielded than a crapper unit i.e saying Rolf gets fielded as often as Astrid is lulz

Edited June 19, 2009 by soundecho

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Exactly how does Brom suck again o.O?

I'd like to address all the Brom KW sandbagging going around here. First look at all the units that can use it. Oscar + Kieran always get it during BEXP. Astrid can get 10 levels of BEXP with the KW so she certainly doesn't need it. Makalov can get it for 5~ levels of BEXP. Brom sucks, and Devdan sucks less.

Even if you did field Devdan and such, this doesn't stop Brom from getting it during the most important time. A level up.

Second of all, when you are making a team, you aren't going to make a team that doesn't work well together.

E.g your not just gonna throw a bunch of units together who can't support each other.

I dunno, you tell me.

[soundecho]

oh whoops. I meant Gatrie ==" I swear I wrote gatrie <_<

[Vykan12]

@Cynthia: The list of Volke's steal-ables is here

[Dat Nick]

Shouldn't the 50k if you don't promote Volke be taken into account? That's basically gauranteeeing somebody a forge every chapter.

By the way, Sothe can steal everything Volke can minus the C10 stuff.

Edited June 20, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Vykan12]

You don't need to promote Volke, especially since we're not using him seriously beyond thieving duties.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

Shouldn't the 50k if you don't promote Volke be taken into account? That's basically gauranteeeing somebody a forge every chapter.

I thought you didn't keep the 50K no matter what.

^ If we give Callil a speed band for all her levelups (fair is fair), she hits 22 AS, so she's doubling SM's and some Cats. Callil does more damage against most of the enemies they both double (Generals, Wyvern Lords, Tigers all have Def Res gaps of 11+), so she wins offense against almost every enemy type.

@Bold: Then let's move Bastian back up above Lucia then, since the whole argument revolved around Lucia being better offensively, but with def-res gaps like that Bastian does far and away more damage. See, most enemies don't have def-res gaps like that (Halbs, warriors, Snipers and SM's), which means Brom is better against most enemies.

And before you go "But Brom doesn't double those, I'll point out these little lines I put into my post:

That 21 AS is enougth to double Halberdiers all throughout the game, it's enougth to double warriors until endgame, level 10 or below Snipers, all generals and wyverns and enougth to double level 12 or below Tigers.

Plus: 22 AS is only enougth to certainly double level 10 cats or below, wit ha 50% chance of doubling the level 11 cats. 22AS only doubles level 5 or below SM's, by this comparison, those are all non-existant.

If you were talking about when Calill first joins:

Level 4 Wyvern Lord: 38 HP, 19 Def, 7 Res

Level 18 Wyvern Knight: 35 HP, 17 Def, 7 Res

Level 4 Paladin: 35 HP, 16 Def, 9 Res

Level 18 Weapon Knight: 31-32 HP, 13-14 Def, 6-7 Res

Level 4 Generals: 36 HP, 20 Def, 10 Res

Level 18 Knights: 33-34 HP, 19-20 Def, 7-8 Res

Level 20/5 Brom with a forged steel lance/javelin, 'A' Neph, 'B' Zihark: 43 HP, 37/33 Atk, 16 AS, 60 Avo, 25 Def, 11 Res

Level xx/6 Calill with Forged thunder: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 17 Res

The only things Brom doesn't ORKO are wyverns and generals. He can ORKO generals, however, if they equip swords and not lances. Then there are things like the heavy spear that are around. etcetera.

So Calill does better against the wyverns in her joining chapter; or does she? I can recall from memory the wyvern's being in groups of 2-3, meaning that if she ever attacks a wyvern, she's in big trouble. Brom suffers no fear of such attacks.

Still not taking into account Brom's earlygame.

Brom > Calill.

Edited June 20, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

I thought you didn't keep the 50K no matter what.

No, you get 50k if you do not promote Volke. I can confirm this because I did an all-female run once I'm just that awesome and I know everything about this game like the back of my hand.

also, the gap between Sothe and Volke needs to be higher than one might imagine. Volke has an inherent level lead due to having an extra chapter of stealing and stuff as well as being on a much higher base level, whereas Sothe fails hard at combat and needs insane amounts of BEXP pumped into him just to get him to the point where he doesn't crumble in one or two hits. Granted Volke is no combat expert either but at least he has something resembling durability right out of the bat without eating up any resources. Sothe can't say the same. There's the 50 Gold per chest, but the smaller amount of EXP Volke needs more than makes up for that.

Oh yes, actually...maybe Volke would need to promote to steal stuff that he couldn't with his thief spd caps, or can he steal everything as thief?

[Tino]

Hmm. 25 hp/7 def is awesome indeed. 20 atk is all that's required to 2RKO him, and with the existence of steel weapons, I don't think that's a completely insignificant scenario.

Volke's durability still sucks. His base durability sucks, and his durability growth sucks. I'm not sure how large the tier gap is that you're suggesting, but if it's a whole two tier gap, then you're wrong.

[Dat Nick]

i never said it should be a two tier gap or even a one tier gap

What I said is that they shouldn't be next to each other at all.

Hmm. 25 hp/7 def is awesome indeed.

Compared to 20 HP/4 Def? Yeah. It is. I daresay Sothe's getting one-shotted by several things. Also, he doesn't have Shade. Don't know how much of a difference Shade makes, but I do know it has an effect on things which is another plus for Volke.

Volke's durability still sucks. His base durability sucks, and his durability growth sucks.

The thing is that Sothe's durability is even worse in both of those catagories, and he needs much more EXP than Volke just to...suck less than Volke.

[Zkirsche]

The thing is that Sothe's durability is even worse in both of those catagories, and he needs much more EXP than Volke just to...suck less than Volke.

What? Sothe has 66/38/205 HP/Def/Avo growths. Volke has 65/10/165 Avo.

Sothe quickly catches up to Volke durably.

[Dat Nick]

Given the huge level difference between them and the fact that Sothe is 100% reliant on BEXP [and this still doesn't entitle him to any more than Volke gets], no, it's not quickly at all.

[Tino]

I thought you were advocating a tier gap between them. But since you apparently are not, I can agree with you.

[Zkirsche]

Given the huge level difference between them and the fact that Sothe is 100% reliant on BEXP [and this still doesn't entitle him to any more than Volke gets], no, it's not quickly at all.

This is true, but eventually Volke will cap, then Soteh will catch up.

Unless you promote him, in which case you'd lose the 50K, or so you claim.

[Tino]

Yes, but how fast is he actually catching up? Considering he's only fielded on maps where he needs to do thief stuff that isn't stealing, that's not fast at all, especially if blossom isn't stripped off of him.

[Dat Nick]

This is true, but eventually Volke will cap, then Soteh will catch up.

This is still going to take quite a while. a nine-level gap doesn't close just like that when all you're being fed is BEXP [Volke doesn't suck at combat so bad that he can't get a bit of combat EXP due to his good base strength]