FE9 Tier List

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The site may have "gone back in time" but that certainly didn't change the fact that the person in charge of updating it hasn't returned so here it is again.

SUPER TOP

Titania

Top

Oscar

Jill

Kieran

Boyd

Reyson

High

Ike

Tanith

Marcia

Astrid

Makalov

Upper Mid

Volke

Mist

Muarim

Nephenee

Zihark

Mordecai

Stefan

Lethe

Soren

Rhys

Ilyana

Lower Mid

Geoffrey

Calill

Brom

Devdan

Gatrie

Haar

Tormod

Ranulf

Tauroneo

Sothe

Low

Largo

Mia

Janaff

Shinon

Ulki

Nasir

Ena

Rolf

Elincia

Bottom

Lucia

Bastian

HM enemy stats here

Possible funds prior to Chapter 19:

2x Red Gem
1x White Gem
1x Blue Gem
2x Ashera Icon
20,000G
2x Statue Frag
3x Secret Book

Total: 68,000G

Note (the Edit): http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=496601

Update:

Callil > Soren

Lethe < Nephenee

Nephenee > Lethe

Soren > Geoffrey

Devdan > Tauroneo

Devdan > Haar

Gatrie > Tauroneo

Ilyana < Calill

Soren & Ilyana > Rhys

Callil and Geoffrey to Lower Mid

Ena out of bottom tier.

Lucia > Bastian

Soren, Ilyana and Rhys < Lethe

Ilyana to top of Lower Mid.

Tormod >Haar

Neph > Stefan

Jill > Kieran

Neph > Zihark

Mordecai > Stefan

Boyd > Reyson

Mist < Volke

Shinon > Nasir

Shinon > Ulki

Rolf > Elincia.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Fireman
Anyone that has any issues with the closing of this topic should take it up with the owner

[Colonel M]

Heh, Titania does have a super top *is shot several times*.

Okay, right off the bat: why is Boyd in High and not in Top? Sorry to sound vague but... I gotta start SOMETHING.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Heh, Titania does have a super top *is shot several times*.

Okay, right off the bat: why is Boyd in High and not in Top? Sorry to sound vague but... I gotta start SOMETHING.

I'm guessing it's his lack of Canto and somewhat troublesome durability.

[Sain_FEH]

While Boyd has good availability and damage output, his problem on hard is his defense and speed. He's not really doubling a whole lot of enemies and even though he has tons of HP, they drop pretty fast if he's taking hits - which he is because his dodges aren't spectacular at all.

My question is why Ike isn't in the top. His event-promotion, like all lords, is a pain in the ass. But up until that point he can hold his own against most enemies with great speed and decent HP/Def. After his promotion, Aether activates all the time giving him additional damage capabilities and survivability from the Sol. And, of course, he's one of only a couple characters capable of fighting (and more importantly, surviving) against Ashnard.

Ike is one of the best lords in any Fire Emblem game and I don't know why he shouldn't be pushed up to at least into the top tier, if not to the top of or close to the top of said tier.

[grandjackal]

My question is why Ike isn't in the top. His event-promotion, like all lords, is a pain in the ass. But up until that point he can hold his own against most enemies with great speed and decent HP/Def. After his promotion, Aether activates all the time giving him additional damage capabilities and survivability from the Sol. And, of course, he's one of only a couple characters capable of fighting (and more importantly, surviving) against Ashnard.

Ike is one of the best lords in any Fire Emblem game and I don't know why he shouldn't be pushed up to at least into the top tier, if not to the top of or close to the top of said tier.

Ike isn't there because he's relatively bad earlygame. Bleh damage, everyone's kicking his ass, lance flood, etc etc.

Anyways, Volke should go below Muarim. Sure he's picking stuff, but you could do most of his job with keys you got lying around. Not much importance to stealing things in this game either. He's also never that great a combatant. His stealing should at least put him above Stefan the ultimate filler, but Muarim and Zihark have a noticeable battle lead via supports, affinities, and variously better equipment (Swords>Knives, Demi Band makes Muarim go berserk)

[dondon151]

Ike isn't there because he's relatively bad earlygame. Bleh damage, everyone's kicking his ass, lance flood, etc etc.

Even though Ike's base stats look rather bad, he has so many more chapters in earlygame that he gets extra levels on the rest of the army. By the time when Oscar/Boyd/Rhys/Soren are made available for every chapter, Ike can have at least a 2 level lead over any of them, translating to competent durability and possibly superior offense because his AS allows him to double whereas Oscar and Boyd can't due to a combination of mediocre speed and AS loss from the most basic weapons.

Didn't we agree Ike>Tanith in the previous topic?

Edited June 10, 2009 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Didn't we agree Ike>Tanith in the previous topic?

Yes, though some counter arguments from Reikken were brought up by Vykan12 (I think, might've been some1 else) and I don't remember any1 arguing those so it's rather uncertain at this point.

[-Cynthia-]

Ike's main problem is being locked to swords. Lances are common, especially earlygame, and Ike is stuck to 1 range until the last 2 chapters(unless you want him to use the Sonic Sword/Runesword and be an offensive failure). Plus almost all the characters above him have Move/Canto and possibly flight over him.

I could see Ike>Boyd and Tanith though, in all honesty. Boyd's earlygame isn't much better than Ike's and he loses lategame to Ike as well, and Tanith isn't available for over half the game. Ike beats them in supports and has nice Lord advantages like being forced on every map and basically being required to beat Ashnard.

Edited June 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Sain_FEH]

There are a lot of lances in early game, but there are also a lot of axes within the first couple levels that give him a decent level jump. His skill and speed are good enough that he can still strike most lance users and his Regal Blade gives him an advantage to hit those primary lance users - cavaliers and knights. Soldiers actually are the ones that give him the most trouble.

I would say that he's definitely better than Tanith in the long run. He ability to use lances, flight, and reinforce skill are all pretty good, but her damage is pretty soft and her durability is suspect too. There are quite a few levels later in the game that also have ballista's on them that Tanith has to sit back for (the level with Naesala, the march up the mountain level, and the big bridge all pop to mind).

Better than Boyd too, I would argue. Boyd particularly has to watch out for swordmasters since not only will he likely be doubled but then tend to unload criticals on him too (it's happened to me before on Normal, much less Hard).

Sword-lock is Ike's biggest problem, but I'd still argue that while his early game may be a little bit rocky, after his promotion he's superior to most units, warranting him to get bumped up. By the time you're into the second half of the game, his speed and luck are high enough that he's dodging most attacks anyway. Otherwise, his defense is usually solid enough to withstand three or more blows in a turn.

[Zkirsche]

Doubled? I doubt it. Boyd has a decent 45% speed growth.

Boyd can ORKO a good majority of the game, Ike starts to struggle doing so mid-game. Not to mention he lacks 1-2 range for durability purposes.

[-Cynthia-]

The only time Boyd's getting doubled is if he's using things other than an Iron Axe in earlygame.

Tanith's durability is quite good actually, like Ike her Avo becomes insane once her supports kick in. She also does comparable damage to pre-Ragnell Ike, he has a small Str lead but Lances have more Mt than Swords. Her only real problem is not being there for a large portion of the game.

[Zkirsche]

Any particular reasoning behind Geoff > Neph? The latter has more availability and better supports.

[Sain_FEH]

Doubled? I doubt it. Boyd has a decent 45% speed growth.

Boyd can ORKO a good majority of the game, Ike starts to struggle doing so mid-game. Not to mention he lacks 1-2 range for durability purposes.

Doubled by swordmasters. His speed growth is pretty good, but some swordsmasters can still have an edge on him depending on his level at the time. But aside from that, the threat of them unloading criticals on him is a more serious flaw. And let's not even talk about magic.

Boyd does tend to ORKO more than Ike in mid-game (since Ike gets slowed down by the stupid event promote). But, from time to time Boyd has more trouble with his hit percentage too. While Ike is usually a sure-thing to hit whatever he hits, Boyd is more likely to miss - especially when using throwing axes.

Boyd's dodges are also pathetic in comparison to Ike and his durability is less too despite his additional HP. Boyd will burn through his HP when getting attacked and counter-attacked faster than Ike.

But arguing for Ike I'm still going to pull the Aether card. It's rare to meet an enemy that survives an Aether to the face, which helps to make up for the damage disparity a lot of times compared to Boyd. It's got a 29 percent chance to activate when Ike's skill is maxed (if I remember correctly) and usually gets two chances to activate since Ike doubles about everything.

[Zkirsche]

Doubled by swordmasters. His speed growth is pretty good, but some swordsmasters can still have an edge on him depending on his level at the time. But aside from that, the threat of them unloading criticals on him is a more serious flaw. And let's not even talk about magic.

I don't think he's ever realistically doubled. Magic is a problem, yes, but even ike struggles against mages.

Boyd does tend to ORKO more than Ike in mid-game (since Ike gets slowed down by the stupid event promote). But, from time to time Boyd has more trouble with his hit percentage too. While Ike is usually a sure-thing to hit whatever he hits, Boyd is more likely to miss - especially when using throwing axes.

Hit is unneccessary as enemies have such low avo in this game. Plus, Boyd's affinity gives him hit and there's plenty of money around for forges.

Boyd's dodges are also pathetic in comparison to Ike and his durability is less too despite his additional HP. Boyd will burn through his HP when getting attacked and counter-attacked faster than Ike.

True enougth, but Boyd has 1-2 ranged.

But arguing for Ike I'm still going to pull the Aether card. It's rare to meet an enemy that survives an Aether to the face, which helps to make up for the damage disparity a lot of times compared to Boyd. It's got a 29 percent chance to activate when Ike's skill is maxed (if I remember correctly) and usually gets two chances to activate since Ike doubles about everything.

Boyd has colossus.

[-Cynthia-]

Any particular reasoning behind Geoff > Neph? The latter has more availability and better supports.

Paragon, Canto and Mov I guess. That's not that convincing, considering Nephenee's been pretty excellent shortly after her starting chapter. She doesn't have much of a support lead over Geoff though, since Brom likes his other partners better and they both get Callil. She gets Devdan, who's not so good, and he gets Elincia, who's not so good, so it's almost a draw.

Edited June 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I'd like to move Ranulf down a little bit. He's far too high. Lethe is much, much better than him for supports and availability.

Paragon, Canto and Mov I guess. That's not that convincing, considering Nephenee's been pretty excellent shortly after her starting chapter. She doesn't have much of a support lead over Geoff though, since Brom likes his other partners better and they both get Callil. She gets Devdan, who's not so good, and he gets Elincia, who's not so good, so it's almost a draw.

I think you've lsightly underestimated devdan, who has relatively good AS.

Also, Brom would rather have 8 avo over 1 atk.

Edited June 10, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

I'd like to move Ranulf down a little bit. He's far too high. Lethe is much, much better than him for supports and availability.

But do Lethe's partners even want her? I think not. Her affinity is fail.

[-Cynthia-]

I'd like to move Ranulf down a little bit. He's far too high. Lethe is much, much better than him for supports and availability.

Too bad she has a Heaven affinity no one wants. She does hae good availability though, and performs postitively throughout most of it (she's not very good once Ranulf shows up).

I think you've lsightly underestimated devdan, who has relatively good AS.

Only with KW access, and only so many units can access it at one time. He's subpar, and a support option Elincia might actually be better since she really has no choice but to take Geoffrey.

Also, Brom would rather have 8 avo over 1 atk.

Brom isn't very dodgy or having big durability issues so he doesn't get much from Avo. Plus Boyd likes that Brom support a lot, it's a two way street.

[Zkirsche]

Too bad she has a Heaven affinity no one wants. She does hae good availability though, and performs postitively throughout most of it (she's not very good once Ranulf shows up).

Any reasoning behind that? All I see is great growths and bases.

Brom isn't very dodgy or having big durability issues so he doesn't get much from Avo. Plus Boyd likes that Brom support a lot, it's a two way street.

Fair enougth, but she still has better availability and is a big positive throughout.

Edited June 10, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Any reasoning behind that? All I see is great growths and bases.

She can't really use her growths mch since she gets low Exp for being a laguz.

Fair enougth, but she still has better availability and is a big positive throughout.

True, although Nephenee isn't doing much with her availability to start out with. She's frail, only sporadically doubles, and can't even use a Steel Lance for damage. She's a negative for a few chapters.

Edited June 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

She can't really use her growths mch since she gets low Exp for being a laguz.

Good thing she has a lot of time on her hands.

Also, the support issue is bullshit. This isn't FE10 where you're only allowed one. She has Jill, which is reasonable speed.Lethe gets moar evade, Jill gets hit so she misses less with her weapons. Both get defense which they'd love. Not full bonuses, but did you know Jill only has Mist otherwise until Haar's lazy ass shows up? His affinity is wind, it's barely any better. Better avoid sooner, or even better avoid around the end of the game? hmmmm...

Speaking of which, Ranulf. He's only got 3 options. Ike is incredibly likely to be taken by now, Mordy's got plenty of awesome options of his own, there's a VERY good chance of an A between her and him, and Lethe gets away with full avoid supports. Sure it's stubbed due to Heaven not giving full avoid, but these others actually have no other option. She has pretty nifty speed and luck, and she's a relatively awesome cat because she's a laguz who's IMMEDIATELY ready for battle, meaning she needs the demi-band much less than the others.

I wouldn't call her options stellar (ranulf...), but she has them via cop-out.

HOLY SHIT! wait wait! She's got fucking MUARIM, who has literally no one better to support than Zihark, unless you wanna argue Lolgo better...

2 defense, 12 avoid at worst.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

Here's some stuff from the gamefaqs topic.

=========

Neph > Zihark

=========

One is Zihark > Nephenee. I'm aware there is a bunch of people between them, which means the misranking here is more serious than that. I think it's a combination of both Zihark being too high and Neph being too low.

Too lazy to do a detailed comparison of the two, but in short:

-Nephenee starts with equal Atk (weapon rank aside), better durability, and less speed. Her speed does not remain a problem, because low level + good growth + hey Knight Ward means she gets to doubling everything territory pretty quick. Her Atk surpasses Zihark's (lower level + promo boost), although it's only by about a point to be fair. So Zihark badly needs to make up the gap in durability. Without Muarim he has no chance of doing so. Even with I'm not sure he does. Neph gets impressive supported avoid herself and wins concrete for when things do sneak in.

-Wrath is better than Adept, because not only is 50% two to four times as good as Adept's rate, but it stacks with crit (Killer Lance) and isn't subject to biorhythm.

-Nephenee can counter at two range.

=========

Ena discussion

=========

The other is Ena in Bottom, because Ena is all that prevents badly RNG screwed Ike from making your game impossible on Hard Mode. That alone gets her above the likes of Shinon who does nothing besides testing how ineffective an earlygame promoted unit can possibly be and making Bottom Tiers look good upon rejoin.

---

Resolve Ike alone is >>>> Aether Ike. I believe a friend of mine calculated that even 20/1 Ike could 6HKO Ashnard once resolve kicks in, and you can add wrath to make things even easier. Then once Ashnard goes mad, you get Giffca who saves the day.

Also, Ena doesn't even help in the fight. She does something like 4 damage to his first form while getting ORKOed by both forms. You'd have to put resolve on her to be able to kill him, but then why not just put it on Ike in the first place?

---

Hmm, thinking on it, Ike needs 15 speed in order to still be doubled under Resolve. That's pretty epically horrible.

That said, he doesn't need to be that below par for Ena to be better than him against Ashnard (since she gets more from Resolve relatively). Ultimately I'm not really sure how much it matters, though - time in the last battle is worth much less than time in any other battle.

I still think she should be above Shinon though. In some situations she can help with Ashnard, and she's unkillable otherwise (kinda sadly or she could get more use out of Resolve).

---

If you notice Ike getting massively RNG screwed, you could save up stat boosters to lessen the problem. You'd have to be figuratively struck by lightning for Ena to actually be *necessary* in taking out Ashnard.

Above Shinon sounds reasonable though, since he amasses a lot of suckage past his earlygame.

---

Since Berserk Ashnard can be handled by Giffca, a resolved Ike only really needs to worry about beating a regular Ashnard.

Ashnard has 27 speed. Ike would need a minimum 16 speed to double attack with Resolve, if thats what you were saying.

Ashnard has 35 strength and a 20 MT sword. You get 5 defense from Ragnell. Ike would need his defense and HP to add up to 51 to even live through one hit in order to activate Resolve, not counting biorhythm.

Ike can only get one Resolve hit per turn. It would seem quite foolish to not heal Ike during the player phases.

Ashnard has 35 defense and his Renewal heals once a turn for 6 HP. Ike needs to do an attack of 42 Strength + MT. Ragnell is 18. Ike's Strength needs to be 12 in order to do any lasting damage on Ashnard with Resolve.

It would be a slow 60 turn process, but yeah those are the Reseolve minimums for Ike beating regular Ashnard. Wrath/Adept would great speed up the process.

Minimum Ike stats for beating Ashnard

HP: 51 - X

Str: 12

Def: X

Spd: 11

Ike can get those stats right at 20/1

---

You'd really need outlandish RNG screwage, trust me.

The odds of Ike having 12 str or lower at 20/20 is ~0.000039019%. That's about a 1 in 30 thousand chance. Now give Ike an energy drop and that falls to ~0.0000002699%, or roughly a 1 in 4 million chance. Give Ike 2 energy drops, and the odds fall to 0 since Ike now literally has at least 12 str (5 base + 3 promo + 4 from stat boosters). Though for kicks, the probability of him missing out on all 38 of his opportunities to gain strength is a 1 in about 300000000000000000000000 chance.

I could do similar calculations for Ike's other stats, but you should get the picture.

---

From Serenes:

"Resolve: When HP is under half, strength, skill and speed are multiplied by 1.5"

Not by 2.

So to double attack, Ike needs 21 speed, and to do real damage he needs 16 strength. Not that it changes much, but still.

---

He only needs 16 Speed not to BE double attacked though, I think was the point. With 16 Spd and 16 Str he can do his 7 damage per turn without being killed. Alternatively, 21 Spd and 14 Str lets him do 4x2.

---

Resolve is 1.5X. I forgot -_-

Well the necessary stats are slightly changed.

HP: 51 - X

Str: 16

Def: X

Spd: 16

Ike can still get those stats right at 20/1

==========

Ranulf vs Largo

==========

Might as well prompt some discussion.

I was thinking that Largo > Ranulf, and then I notice they're a tier apart, and not in that direction. Two dissimilar stat builds, offence vs. defence... let's take a look.

I'll give Ranulf 2 levels before Largo joins, and compare them then. Ranulf has a Demi Band or he faces transformation woes, so I'll equip him with that. Largo gets a Silver Axe.

Largo wins Atk by 6 and Crit by 15. Ranulf wins Def by 11 and Res by 5, loses HP by 4. Move by 2. Tied in AS. Largo can get extra punch with various other weapons, and attack at 2 range.

By endgame, I'd expect Ranulf to gain 5 more levels, and Largo 7 (37 kills each halves the level gap, so this works pretty well). After that, assuming Largo gets forged Silver at some point, Largo wins Atk by over 13. All other points of comparison change little if at all.

So the question is, which do we value more, offence or defence? Ranulf, like most laguz, is bad at the former. So bad I don't think he generally one-rounds much that isn't a mage or an unpromoted unit, and the latter stops appearing pretty quickly. He doesn't double anything really speedy (a problem Largo shares) and doesn't 2HKO anything remotely durable. Largo? The few enemies that survive him can be taken out by stronger weapons, often. I think Largo with forged Silver may even one-shot Swordmasters, though I'd have to look that up and Reikken's site is down at the moment for me.

On the other side of things, Largo is frequently taken out in 3 hits, whereas Ranulf needs something closer to 6. You can put Ranulf up front and let him tank and counter, chipping things to death. But then, if Ranulf chips four enemies, and Largo kills two, hasn't Largo had a better enemy phase anyway? Especially if you can direct the two enemies he doesn't interact with elsewhere.

I guess I feel that the game doesn't lack for other offensively challenged, tanky filler. Tauroneo, Haar, Geoffrey are all just as tanky as Ranulf, and two are more mobile. On the other hand, offence is harder to come by. Stefan comes close, and is more durable... but I think a bunch of Atk (Largo's base -1 from Stefan's cap, and he'll gain a lot) and range 2 trumps AS. Tanith has lower Atk than Stefan. Geoffrey is -4 Atk/-1 AS, though his growth admittedly is better. Calill is probably the only prepromo I'm willing to say has outright better offence than Largo (similar damage and AS, but always range 2) and hey, her durability is even lower (largely just due to HP), and she needs Rexbolt (one chapter) to match Forged Silver (as many chapters as the rest of the party allows).

And then, another concern is that Ranulf's utility tanks without the Demi Band, which he has to take away from someone else... maybe Muarim? Largo doesn't take much of anything away from anyone.

The two are very hard to compare. I just feel Largo is more likely to be called on for the niche he fills. He's nearly unmatched for lategame muscle, Ranulf has no muscle to speak of and certainly is matched for lategame tanking.

"Okay," I'm sure some of you are thinking. "But how about adding him into parties that aren't obsessed with prepromo filler?" Fair enough. Such well-raised parties generally have such crushing mobility and durability that they can easily protect Largo (while benefitting from his offence), and have no use for Ranulf's tanking, though I suppose they do appreciate his move. Still, eh, not sure this changes the overall picture.

Thoughts? Am I not doing Ranulf enough justice? Underestimating Largo's durability problems? Or is there another misranking here?

---

I’d say there’s a lot to make out for Largo’s durability problems. Only being able to take 3 hits severely limits his offensive opportunities, especially if he takes a player phase counter, which would limit him to 2 enemies. The later maps simply have too many enemies for that to be acceptable.

---

Durability? Who cares about defense? Largo kicks ass so fast that he doesn't even have time to take names, let alone get attacked.

---

Killing as well as Boyd doesn't address Largo's durability problems. In fact, it amplifies them. Kill one enemy, and you free up a space for another to attack, and soon enough the proverbial glass cannon will shatter.

20/10 Boyd (A Mist, B Brom): 53 hp, 19 def, 14 res, 51 avo

20/7 Largo: 52 hp, 10 def, 3 res, 52 avo

If it weren't for Largo's massive hp, he'd be less durable than someone like Ilyana.

[grandjackal]

In fact, where is Lethe?...

..Seriously? Below Gatrie? Is this ANY excuse to her jointime, her ability to be one of the few laguz who is instantly usable, and has good growths? Even with laguz meter in mind, she can do quite a bit of work before it turns off, and quite a bit of the map can be done by then. Even considering, she can just be an uber laguz, then when the meter runs out she can equip the demi band, meaning that unlike most laguz she can manage sort of an uber mode.

Then you bitch about her supports, when she has viable ones, then say Gatrie is better when he has anything BUT good supports. Know his only likely support? Fucking Shinon.

It's inexcusable how you have Lethe this low. I could honestly see her a lot higher, but at LEAST put her above Stefan, who is at best the ultimate filler unit.

[-Cynthia-]

Gatrie has earlygame utility, and his offense is good once he gets the KW. His options aren't that limited, Illyana has better choices but Astrid doesn't(we only field Sothe on a few maps), Marcia might have an open slot depending on what Tanith/Kieran do, and he can get Shinon on the off chance we use him. Gatrie isn't locked to 1 range like Lethe and gets WT control as well, plus he can actually fight the whole time, not just the first few turns.

As for the discussions Ena is only useful if Ike is RNG screwed, which isn't assumed. I didn't see much convincing in Largo v Ranulf, Largo's durability is just bad, and this is worse than Ranulf's mediocre offense IMO. I could see something in Nephenee vs. Zihark though, I think Neph might be a little low on here.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

So far...

Ena will not move up.

Neph >>> Zihark is considered, the question is how to place them.

Ranulf can drop but please compare him to those directly below him.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Sirius