FE9 Tier List

[dondon151]

I don't see how Soren doesn't double at endgame when I've had him doubling in fixed mode as early as chapter 11 (?)

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's not like Zihark can't use Vantage well, either.

It's not like some other people can't get some use out of the supports Zihark gets but apparently he's top priority since he's their best support.

It's not like Tanith and others can't use the Sonic Sword either but apparently Mist and Tanith have top priority over it since they're the best with it.

It's not like others can't use Arms Scrolls either but apparently Mist called dibs on it and she's getting them.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Point is that she isn't the best as Criticals aren't definite, and at wrath level, she can't afford not critting once. With Adept, you can afford to be hit.

[grandjackal]

That, and when it comes to Vantage, I'd rather rely on Wrath rather than Adept.

Perhaps this is how Upper Mid should be arranged.

Muarim

Nephenee

Lethe

Mordecai

Zihark

Stefan

Soren

Something like that, because I get the feeling the next arguments are gonna be all about upper mid.

Yes, I'd argue that Mordy's late gauge and worse endgame (with his speed and resistance, he fears mages on a much grander scale, despite being hard to kill anyways, Lethe is durable enough, makes better use of skills such as Adept, Mordy is having a harder time garnering supports while Lethe's pretty much garunteed a B B with 2 awesome characters) overrides his incredible physical durability and power when concerning Lethe.

Perhaps...Lethe over Neph? ;;>>

Edited June 12, 2009 by Kuja

[Tino]

It's not like Nephenee has 'zomg' crit anyway, so then you could also just remove it... Or you could keep it as a nice asset for when she does drop below half her max hp.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Point is that she isn't the best as Criticals aren't definite, and at wrath level, she can't afford not critting once. With Adept, you can afford to be hit.

@Bold: Is this always true? Also, the chances of her not critting with Wrath, Killer Weapon and Vantage are pretty low, it's 80% + half her SKL which has a pretty high growth. 20 SKL means 90% chance of crit and the SKL stat booster doesn't seem to be high in demand.

[grandjackal]

That, and of course I'd find a hard time figuring out who could put it to better use than someone who already has an innate Wrath skill.

[Zkirsche]

@Bold: Is this always true? Also, the chances of her not critting with Wrath, Killer Weapon and Vantage are pretty low, it's 80% + half her SKL which has a pretty high growth. 20 SKL means 90% chance of crit and the SKL stat booster doesn't seem to be high in demand.

She'll have ~87% chance to crit when she first gets it. In the 13% chance that it doesn't crit could prove fatal. After 2 attacks, this 13% chance to not crit increases to 24.31% after 2 attack, 34.15% after 3 attacks and 42.72% after 4 attacks. With HP lower than 13 by this point, these attacks can prove fatal.

This is all excluding enemy ddg - which is around 4. At a 83% chance to crit, there's a 17% chance of not critting in one attack, 31.11% after 2 attacks, 42.83% in 3 attacks and 52.55% chance after 4 attacks.

Besides, killing without resources >> Killing with resources.

Nephenee

Lethe

We'll give Nephenee a level of bexp, to be fair:

Level 9/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 MT, 12 Wt): 23 HP, 24 Atk, 12 AS, 30.5 Avo, 10 Def, 4 Res. 76 gold per attack

Level 3 Lethe: 34 HP, 26 atk, 15 AS, 45 Avo, 16 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack

Lethe beats Nephenee in every parameter. Nephenee is more expensive, less durable and worse offensively. Lethe also has more movement. So yeah, Lethe >>>>> Nephenee when Nephenee joins.

A few chapters later (Say, chapter 14), we'll give Nephenee a nice big 1.4 levels per chapter, whilst giving Lethe a mere level. Since Brom doesn't want nephenee (Boyd is better), we won't give her brom. Stats:

Level 13/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 Atk): 25 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 35.5 Avo, 11 Def, 4.5 Res. 66 Gold per attack.

Level 4 Lethe: 35 HP, 26.5 Atk, 16 AS, 47.5 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack.

Lethe is STILL winning in every parameter. Lol.

Chapter 18, let's give Nephenee a nice 1.3 levels per chapter as she isn't quite so under levelled anymore. We'll give Lethe a level every 2 chapters as she isn't quite so overlevelled anymore. Lethe has 'B' Jill by now. Let's check it out:

Level 20/1 Nephenee with same forge: 33 HP, 30 Atk, 20 AS, 49 Avo, 16 Def, 8 Res. 66 gold per attack

Level 7 Lethe, 'B' Jill: 39 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 58 Avo, 17 Def, 11 Res. 0 Gold per attack

Offensively, it's a tie. Lethe has more movement than nephenee, which matters in a team of paladins, but Nephenee has slightly more Atk (18 AS is still enougth to double near-everything).

Defensively, Lethe wins with 6 HP, 9 Avo, 1 Def and 3 Res. She can also outrun enemies.

Lethe provides support bonuses. Nephenee doesn't.

Lethe STILL wins.

So yeah, Lethe is comparable to Nephenee, an upper-mid tier unit. Lethe for upper mid.

--------

First, I'd like to point out that endgame weighs less than mid-game for the aforementioned reason (There are underlevelled units mid-game such as Jill, Marcia, Zihark, Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov and Brom. However, there's no such underlevelled units late game.)

Next, I'd like to remind everyone that Lethe wins support for having 2 support partners who want her: Muarim and Jill. Boyd loves the attack and def from Mist, so Mist may not even want Jill. Even if she did, Mist would get 'A' Mordy since water x water = pwnage. Haar only gives Jill 8 more avo but very late on in the game. She'd much rather have the quick, more beneficial option from Lethe. As for Muarim, he has either Lethe or Largo.... easy choice. So Lethe gets 'A' Jill, 'B' Muarim. Nephenee has fail supports - Devdan and Calill = fail. Brom prefers the earth support from Zihark and the Atk from Boyd. Boyd, as i mentioend before, loves def.

Lethe also has more movement than Nephenee, 9 mov is important when you look at the movement ranges of all these units: Mordecai, Muarim, Titania, Kieran, Astrid, Makalov, Oscar, Tanith, Marcia and Jill. What do all these units have in common? 9 mov (After promotion, that is). Staying on the front lines- and in the firing lines of the enemy - is a diffcult task for nephenee and her 9 mov.

I showed how Lethe > Nephenee for chapters 11-18, that's 11 chapters. Lethe also has use in Chapter 10 by rescuing units to help achieve the bexp requirements. So that's +12 for lethe. How many chapters are left after chapter 18? 11. So even if Lethe was +0 for all those chapters, She'd still have a lead over nephenee.

Lethe > Nephenee.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

She'll have ~87% chance to crit when she first gets it. In the 13% chance that it doesn't crit could prove fatal. After 2 attacks, this 13% chance to not crit increases to 24.31% after 2 attack, 34.15% after 3 attacks and 42.72% after 4 attacks. With HP lower than 13 by this point, these attacks can prove fatal.

This is all excluding enemy ddg - which is around 4. At a 83% chance to crit, there's a 17% chance of not critting in one attack, 31.11% after 2 attacks, 42.83% in 3 attacks and 52.55% chance after 4 attacks.

Besides, killing without resources >> Killing with resources.

And this changes the fact that it makes her enemy phase much better than Zihark's, how?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

And this changes the fact that it makes her enemy phase much better than Zihark's, how?

Because she won't attack as much so that she'll live. So it becomes a useless advantage.

Again, Zihark still performs well with it as he doesn't suffer from teh worry of dying from it.

As for nephenee vs Mordecai...

Mordecai vs. Nephenee

Beast man vs. Farm girl.

Let the battle begin. D<

So Mordecai technically joins one chapter earlier than Nephenee does. Lets compare bases for Blood Runs Red. Mordy probably hasn't gained a level unless abused in Chapter 10 due to fewer enemies, and others needing EXP more.

Mordy Level 2 (Un-transformed)

HP:41.0 Str:15.0 Mag:2.0 Skl:8.0 Spd:8.0 Def:13.0 Res:4.0 Luk:10.0

Nephenee Level 7

HP:22.0 Str:8.0 Mag:2.0 Skl:10.0 Spd:11.0 Def:9.0 Res:3.0 Luk:6.0

Mordecai nearly has double the HP, double Str, 4 more points of Def, 1 point in Res (negligible) and 4 more points of Luk.

Nephenee has 2 skl and 3 spd. Woo.

Not to mention Mordecai's not even transformed.

Look at the bonuses he gets when he transforms:

Str +7

Skl +4

Spd+3

Def +3

Res +3

Build +15

Mov +2

any lead Nephenee may have claimed to have, is now gone. Not to mention that Mordy's mov gains are putting him as the same mov as pallies, making him an excellent frontliner. "Nenee" can only hope to keep up with the party.

Supports definitely goes to Mordecai. His excellent water affinity gives him nice boosts and he has partners who want him, whereas Nephenee gets Brom, who wants Boyd and Zihark. loldevdan and a lategame Sage who's likely not seeing use and wants Tormod and Geoffrey for better bonuses.

Midgame

Chapter 16

Mordecai level 6 (B Mist Transformed)

HP:47.0 Atk: 35.6 AS: 15 Def: 19.6 Avd: 37.6 Res: 6.8

(B Mist Un-Transformed)

HP: 47.0 Def: 16.6 Avd: 35.6 Res: 4.8(Offense is negligible here)

Nephenee level 16 w/Iron Lance

HP: 27.0 Atk: 18.6 AS: 16.0 Def:12.1 Avd: 40.3 Res: 8.3

w/Steel Lance

Atk: 21.6 AS: 14 Def: 12.1 Avd: 36.3 Res 8.3

Still double the HP, Atk, Equivalent AS for the most part if Nephenee wants to have comprable power. Mordy also has a good defense lead but lags a little in Avd, but his huge HP and good Def make up for it. Her small avd lead is almost non existant when she has WTD to arguably the best weapon type in the game. His defensiver parameters >>> Nephenee's. His offense >>> Nephenee's.

Lets look at lategame, where Nephenee can somewhat compare:

Mordecai level 15 w/Demi Band (A Mist B Stefan)

HP: 60.5 Atk: 39.4 Hit: 134 AS: 16.5 Def: 21 Avd: 48 Res: 5.6

Nephenee level 15 w/Silver Lance

HP: 40.8 Atk: 35.7 Hit: 140.4 AS: 25.6 Def: 20.4 Avd: 64 Res: 12.8

lol, it only took her the entire game to even stand up to him. Not to mention Silver Lance's don't become available in stores until the later 20 chapters. Not only that, but Mordecai may have even better stats if the Demi Band isn't equipped.

Mordecai is easily the most offensive unit upon his joining time, along with Titania. Nephenee comes underleveled and with low weapon levels. Mordecai actually has supports, meaning not only is he improving, but so are the suportees, who actually want his bonuses. Nephenee is lucky to get in an A somewhere along the way. Mordecai doesn't even need the Demi Band to be good because his massive HP and great Def make him a solid wall when untransformed and gains excellent bonuses upon transformation. Nephenee lacks good mov while most of the party will be mounted. Sure wrath is nice, but if she got to half health in the first place, its likely she'll go down just as fast. Not to mention its useless if an enemey strikes her before she can use her ability.

Mordecai > Nephenee

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Mkay, Lethe over Neph, I can agree with it. If Neph gets Vantage, Lethe gets Adept.

...So....Anyone think Lethe could go above Muarim? << >> << >>

[Zkirsche]

Let's wait to see if Sirius makes any changes.

BTW, Lethe can use Wrath + Vantage too.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because she won't attack as much so that she'll live. So it becomes a useless advantage.

Again, Zihark still performs well with it as he doesn't suffer from teh worry of dying from it.

As for nephenee vs Mordecai...

1-2 more action per enemy phase =/= useless advantage.

@Bold: What? He's lacking Vantage so enemies will attack him first, wouldn't he have a higher chance on of death than Wrath + Vantage Nephenee?

Mordecai is already above Nephenee.

BTW, Lethe can use Wrath + Vantage too.

Except Nephenee only requires Vantage to have that combo while Lethe requires Wrath as well. Not to mention that it's still more effective on Nephenee due to access to Killer Weapons. Wrath is probably in more demand than Vantage.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Does anyone actually contest that Lethe > Geoffrey.

1-2 more action per enemy phase =/= useless advantage.

1-2 more action? She has less action thanks to the fact that she doesn't want to get attacked much.

@Bold: What?

Vantage - Adept combination doesn't risk Zihark's life anymore than usual as he doesn't have to get to half health to activate it.

Vantage - Wrath forces you to reduce Nephenee's HP to half.

Mordecai is already above Nephenee.

I was trying to persuade you not to move nephenee above him.

Except Nephenee only requires Vantage to have that combo while Lethe requires more. Not to mention that it's still more effective on Nephenee due to access to Killer Weapons.

Lethe's better with it due to having more enemy phrase due to higher mov and being more durable.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

I don't even think anyone contests Geoffery<Haar, or at least the notion that Geoff should drop like a rock down to around Haar's level.

[Zkirsche]

I don't even think anyone contests Geoffery<Haar, or at least the notion that Geoff should drop like a rock down to around Haar's level.

Geoffrey's > Soren, so I hope Soren's dropping with him.

@Bold: What? He's lacking Vantage so enemies will attack him first, wouldn't he have a higher chance on of death than Wrath + Vantage Nephenee?

You don't understand, Adept + Vantage Zihark dies less than Wrath + Vantage nephenee as with Wrath, she has to reduce her HP to dangerously low levels.

Wrath is probably in more demand than Vantage.

Perhaps, but quite frankly, Zihark and Lethe are better than Nephenee whilst taking no resources. Nephenee may be the best with said resource (She isn't), but it doesn't change the fact that she isn't 100% entitled to said resource or that she doesn't hold back other people whilst getting it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You don't understand, Adept + Vantage Zihark dies less than Wrath + Vantage nephenee as with Wrath, she has to reduce her HP to dangerously low levels.

See, here's the thing. We're not forcing Nephenee to ALWAYS be stuck with half HP, what happens is that if Nephenee goes below half HP on the enemy phase, the combo kicks in to give her an extremely high chance of her killing the enemy before it hits her thus allowing for more enemy phase action. While Adept + Vantage does this, it's to a lesser extent because Adapt + Vantage would result in 2x damage as opposed to 3x damage. Not to mention that Adept's activation rate is clearly lower.

At 20/20, we're looking at 29% Adept activation which is going to do what? Now unless Zihark's 1 rounding the enemy with 2 normal attacks or a critical kicks in during Vantage + Adept, that enemy will attack so he's going to see more attacks on him than Nephenee will.

Perhaps, but quite frankly, Zihark and Lethe are better than Nephenee whilst taking no resources. Nephenee may be the best with said resource (She isn't), but it doesn't change the fact that she isn't 100% entitled to said resource or that she doesn't hold back other people whilst getting it.

Zihark and Lethe are NOT better candidates for it. Vantage won't improve Zihark as much as it would improve Nephenee and Lethe requires yet another skill which is clearly in higher demand since any1 would want to see 80%+ critical when they're at low HP and using a Killing weapon.

She isn't 100% entitled to it but she sure as hell has higher chance of getting it than Zihark and the bolded can be said for supports and yet the people who are best always get it so this is inconsistent. Not to mention that the Vantage scroll is available in EVERY playthrough if you get from the village while the supports only exist if the supporters are fielded as well.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Sirius, your completely ignoring my other points - more mobility, less costly (especially since Neph uses valuable skills), Supports people, attacks more enemies, better without resources, better if resources are given to btoh etcetera.

See, here's the thing. We're not forcing Nephenee to ALWAYS be stuck with half HP, what happens is that if Nephenee goes below half HP on the enemy phase, the combo kicks in to give her an extremely high chance of her killing the enemy before it hits her thus allowing for more enemy phase action. While Adept + Vantage does this, it's to a lesser extent because Adapt + Vantage would result in 2x damage as opposed to 3x damage. Not to mention that Adept's activation rate is clearly lower.

At 20/20, we're looking at 29% Adept activation which is going to do what? Now unless Zihark's 1 rounding the enemy with 2 normal attacks or a critical kicks in during Vantage + Adept, that enemy will attack so he's going to see more attacks on him than Nephenee will.

@Bolded: Not unlikely especially since you gave Nephenee the killer lance, why don't I give Zihark the killing edge?

In order to get this combo, she has to be at half HP, at half HP she's in danger. Thus, in order to activate said combo she has to be in danger. However, the chance is not high enougth to grant Nephenee invulnerability. Which was my point.

Zihark and Lethe are NOT better than candidates for it. Vantage won't improve Zihark as much as it would improve Nephenee and Lethe requires yet another skill which is clearly in higher demand since any1 would want to see 80%+ critical when they're at low HP and using a Killing weapon.

Yes it does, which is my entire point. Leteh can survive with it and uses it more. Zihark isn't threatened to die from it and has an increased chance to kill.

Lethe is by far a better candidate for Vantage x Wrath than Nephenee.

She isn't 100% entitled to it but she sure as hell has higher chance of getting it than Zihark and the bolded can be said for supports and yet the people who are best always get it so this is inconsistent. Not to mention that the Vantage scroll is available in EVERY playthrough if you get from the village while the supports only exist if the supporters are fielded as well.

Lol@ Not using Jill or Muarim but using Nephenee.

No she doesn't as lethe will activate it more frequently due to higher enemy phrase exposure thanks to 9 movement and better durability - Lethe can live with 19 HP, Nephenee struggles to with 13.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

I don't even think anyone contests Geoffery<Haar, or at least the notion that Geoff should drop like a rock down to around Haar's level.

'

Um, did you miss the part where Geoffrey has the same Atk and durability, but doubles almost every enemy, while Haar only doubles Generals/Wyvern Lords/Bishops? Vykan even conceded that Geoffrey> Haar, so I don't see how you possibly reached this conclusion. The 24 AS in Tino's example didn't even include Geoffrey using the KW-- he hits 27 Spd at level 20 wih it, which does double everything.

Also, Nephenee uses Vantage+Wrath better because she's only using the Vantage scroll rather than 2 scrolls. BTW, generally skills are trickier to add in than supports because of the huge opportunity cost, skill scrolls are very limited and once used are gone forever. Supports only require that character X be fielded and within 3 squares, the game isn't that harsh on slots, and they beneift both characters.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Um, did you miss the part where Geoffrey has the same Atk and durability, but doubles almost every enemy, while Haar only doubles Generals/Wyvern Lords/Bishops? Vykan even conceded that Geoffrey> Haar, so I don't see how you possibly reached this conclusion.

Did you ignore the parts of Haar's utility outdoing his better offense, along with jointime and actual supports(that are hugely better no less)? You also forgot to mention how those are enemies of lategame, and that Haar has better durability (same growths, Haar starts off better, Haar's supports boost avoid and defense, axes help even further with evasion, Cancel/Guard). Even so, he's not SO much better than Haar that it warrents him to be a tier above him. If Geoffery is better than Haar, he should be just above him and no higher.

Also, Nephenee uses Vantage+Wrath better because she's only using the Vantage scroll rather than 2 scrolls. BTW, generally skills are trickier to add in than supports because of the huge opportunity cost, skill scrolls are very limited and once used are gone forever. Supports only require that character X be fielded and within 3 squares, the game isn't that harsh on slots, and they beneift both characters.

Which case, Nephenee getting a vantage scroll in itself is dubious. Zihark can put it to similar use, now that kirsche explained himself (Adept damage overall would be better than having to be at half health to put it to good use anyways). Hell, Soren could put it to good use as Adept magic damage at vantage would be pretty spectacular once he gets going (no different than needing a killer lance to be reliable and half dead at dangerous levels).

I don't even know why Kirsche is trying to get vantagexwrath for Lethe when all she needs is Adept. Fair's fair, right? Nephenee gets Vantage, Lethe gets adept. She can put Adept to good use too, thanks to her speed. Adept isn't 100% reliable, but neither is Wrath, and Wrath forces you to be half dead to have the chance regardless.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Sirius, your completely ignoring my other points - more mobility, less costly (especially since Neph uses valuable skills), Supports people, attacks more enemies, better without resources, better if resources are given to btoh etcetera.

They're duly noted and I'm not responding because I cannot counter it. Why would I quote something I'm not responding to?

@Bolded: Not unlikely especially since you gave Nephenee the killer lance, why don't I give Zihark the killing edge?

Didn't say it was unlikely, just said that it is more likely for Nephenee.

In order to get this combo, she has to be at half HP, at half HP she's in danger. Thus, in order to activate said combo she has to be in danger. However, the chance is not high enougth to grant Nephenee invulnerability. Which was my point.

When did I say invulnerability? If you've been reading my posts on this matter you should know damn well that I've acknowledge the possibility of her dying. The point is that the chance isn't quite high and is EVERY single attack that hits her at HP below half killing her?

Yes it does, which is my entire point. Leteh can survive with it and uses it more. Zihark isn't threatened to die from it and has an increased chance to kill.

Again, Lethe requires another skill which is in higher demand. For her to get that combo, it's much more favoritism than Nephenee. I know damn well that she can survive better but you're neglecting the additional cost -__-

Lethe is by far a better candidate for Vantage x Wrath than Nephenee.

Correction: Lethe is better than Nephenee if both have the same combo. The extra cost still exists.

Lol@ Not using Jill or Muarim but using Nephenee.

Lol@ bringing up Lethe's support list when I was clearly talking about Zihark -__-

No she doesn't as lethe will activate it more frequently due to higher enemy phrase exposure thanks to 9 movement and better durability - Lethe can live with 19 HP, Nephenee struggles to with 13.

Cynthia just told you why Nephenee has a better chance of seeing that combo on her than Lethe.

BTW, generally skills are trickier to add in than supports because of the huge opportunity cost, skill scrolls are very limited and once used are gone forever. Supports only require that character X be fielded and within 3 squares, the game isn't that harsh on slots, and they beneift both characters.

Huge? How?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Did you ignore the parts of Haar's utility outdoing his better offense, along with jointime and actual supports(that are hugely better no less)? You also forgot to mention how those are enemies of lategame, and that Haar has better durability (same growths, Haar starts off better, Haar's supports boost avoid and defense, axes help even further with evasion, Cancel/Guard). Even so, he's not SO much better than Haar that it warrents him to be a tier above him. If Geoffery is better than Haar, he should be just above him and no higher.

Haar only has a grand total of 1 map (Chapter 24 doesn't do a whole lot for him) before Geoffrey arrives, so proclaiming it as some giant positive is getting really old. Haar's durability leads over Geoffrey are pretty weak, 2 hp and like 11 Avo, if Geoffrey has the KW equipped he wins durability, lances aren't such a majority now that Haar wielding Axes is a big evasion booster. There's also the ballistae which 2HKO Haar and can OHKO him, pretty much canceling out his utility advantage on the mountain map. Haar's utility is pretty much meaningless for the other chapters except Twisted Tower, but Geoffrey's leads are so huge on thid map we don't really care.

Haar's supports aren't that much better than Geoffrey's. To get a Jill support, Jill and Lethe both have to not give each other bonuses until Haar arrives, which pretty much cancels out the small Avo bost he gives her. Makalov is a good support, since he has slots open, but so is Callil since she has slots open. If Elincia is being fielded she'll take Geoffrey for lack of anything else, and if Geoffrey has Elincia and Callil he beats Haar in Atk, if he has one it's a tie.

Geoffrey's offensive lead is just huge. Geoffrey doubles everything with KW access (most things without). Haar doubles maybe 25% of enemies, that's only Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Bishops, and a lot of the final maps are laguz heavy. This means Geoffrey deals double damage to 75% of enemies, and it's a tie on the other 25%. Haar can use the Brave Axe, but then Geoffrey has a 20 Mt weapon(forged Silver Lance), while Haar has a 10 Mt weapon, so Geoffrey's doing 20 more damage to every single enemy on the map. I think a massive offensive lead warrants two tiers in between them.

Huge opportunity cost is that no one else can use that skill. even if they are the best candidate, it's a significant blow to another team member, unless they're the only one who's effective with it at all. Supports don't have this issue.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Anyone against Lethe > Geoffrey? Anyone?

They're duly noted and I'm not responding because I cannot counter it. Why would I quote something I'm not responding to?

Glad to hear it, I though you were just saying "Nephenee is good with Vantage + Wrath" whilst thinking that is the only thing that matters.

Didn't say it was unlikely, just said that it is more likely for Nephenee.

Not quite, Zihark deals quite good damage at great crit rates with this.

When did I say invulnerability? If you've been reading my posts on this matter you should know damn well that I've acknowledge the possibility of her dying. The point is that the chance isn't quite high and is EVERY single attack that hits her at HP below half killing her?

But my point is that it IS quite high. She can only afford 2-3 attacks before dying. Some (ranged users, knights) won't be killed before they attack Nephenee.

Again, Lethe requires another skill which is in higher demand. For her to get that combo, it's much more favoritism than Nephenee. I know damn well that she can survive better but you're neglecting the additional cost -__-

I understand that, it's just, as with nephenee, the cost is overriden by the benefits. Besides, lethe has more skill versatility: She can use better skills without wasting some otehrs (Nephenee has to remove wrath for resolve for example). There's also Adept. Also, for Zihark, there's gamble.

Correction: Lethe is better than Nephenee if both have the same combo. The extra cost still exists.

True enougth, but you can't ignore the fact that Lethe > nephenee with teh combo or if both haven't got the combo.

Lol@ bringing up Lethe's support list when I was clearly talking about Zihark -__-

Muarim is for both.

Cynthia just told you why Nephenee has a better chance of seeing that combo on her than Lethe.

She posted AFTER me.

Huge? How?

You can never use it again.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not quite, Zihark deals quite good damage at great crit rates with this.

Of this, I'm aware. Her crit rate's higher, very low chances of not happening.

But my point is that it IS quite high. She can only afford 2-3 attacks before dying. Some (ranged users, knights) won't be killed before they attack Nephenee.

The same is true for Zihark. Neph has a higher chance of killing an enemy before it can attack her. And that's the thing, the Wrath + Vantage combo gives her pretty good chances at more enemy phase action while Zihark sees this at a lower chance.

I understand that, it's just, as with nephenee, the cost is overriden by the benefits. Besides, lethe has more skill versatility: She can use better skills without wasting some otehrs (Nephenee has to remove wrath for resolve for example). There's also Adept. Also, for Zihark, there's gamble.

What...?

Nephenee's cost: Vantge scroll. The loss of just this one scroll is nowhere near significant as the loss of both Vantage and Wrath which is in higher demand.

Lethe's: Vantage AND Wrath scrolls, one of which is in higher demand. Astrid for example, would love +50 critical if she ended up with HP below half. She moves up to an enemy to attack with a Bow with a high chance of killing the enemy and then move back and receive healing. If the healer happens to do so with Mend, Heal Recover and the like, he/she could also trade to switch Astrid to a better weapon if necessary. While Lethe is surviving more than Nephenee with that combo, I don't see how that really compensates the cost. After all she does lack access to Killing weapons so he chances of criting the enemy before it attacks her are lower.

True enougth, but you can't ignore the fact that Lethe > nephenee with teh combo or if both haven't got the combo.

And I didn't because I did say that in the quote you just responded to >_>. If both without the combo, yeah Lethe is better.

Muarim is for both.

True, Jill isn't and since they're both supports for Lethe, it was a safer bet to assume that you brought up Lethe's support list >_>.

She posted AFTER me.

I can see that. Think of it as "Look at Cynthia's post because that's my answer as well >_>" or "Cynthia beat me to it >_>"

You can never use it again.

The same is true for the items we gave Mist >_> and for supports once all the support slots have been filled. Admittedly, the opportunity cost for supports is less than skills.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Haar only has a grand total of 1 map (Chapter 24 doesn't do a whole lot for him) before Geoffrey arrives, so proclaiming it as some giant positive is getting really old. Haar's durability leads over Geoffrey are pretty weak, 2 hp and like 11 Avo, if Geoffrey has the KW equipped he wins durability, lances aren't such a majority now that Haar wielding Axes is a big evasion booster. There's also the ballistae which 2HKO Haar and can OHKO him, pretty much canceling out his utility advantage on the mountain map. Haar's utility is pretty much meaningless for the other chapters except Twisted Tower, but Geoffrey's leads are so huge on thid map we don't really care.

He can help destroy the reinforcements that tale you, he can rescue people who fell into traps, can take ballistae shots even without full guard because he's not a pussy, completely ignores traps and the barricades, I fail to see how he's not being helpful here.

Yes, a meaningless win at the twisted tower, aside from the fact Haar could be weakening enemies before Geoff can even arrive at them. OH! and ignore the HUGE destructive win he has over Geoff at the mountain where he and his horse can barely move, where fliers are ultimately the best mobility here. On top of that, he has some of the best durability, and he's likely tougher now so he has no problems taking some ballistae shots. Can get to those damn rock shovers before anyone else, can help kill the boss quicker. Geoff's lucky just to see action here. That avoid lead is bigger thanks to his Makalov support, a character who isn't mediocre.

Oh yeah, the KW. SO fair to give it to him, I mean it benefits NO ONE else, doesn't it? I mean god, how stupid of me to think Nephenee, Devden, Brom, Gatrie, Titania, Makalov, Oscar, Kieran or Astrid wanting that, oh no sir! How stupid of me! Anyone can benefit from +2 defense and resistance, but Full Guard is at least relative use. Marcia and Tanith are still hurt by ballistae shots even with it equipped, while Haar starts out the box good enough to even take a shot or 2 (depending on ballistae type). His only competition for good use of it is Jill. MUCH less than Geoff.

Speaking of which, I recall most of the black knight chapter being a lot of slow-ass enemies anyways. Haar with his better strength and axes helps bust down doors faster, which helps us get through the chapter more efficiently. Lots of generals, sages and bishops.

Haar's supports aren't that much better than Geoffrey's. To get a Jill support, Jill and Lethe both have to not give each other bonuses until Haar arrives, which pretty much cancels out the small Avo bost he gives her. Makalov is a good support, since he has slots open, but so is Callil since she has slots open. If Elincia is being fielded she'll take Geoffrey for lack of anything else, and if Geoffrey has Elincia and Callil he beats Haar in Atk, if he has one it's a tie.

Many problems with this. First off, Makalov is a much better unit. Secondly, he is another option for Jill in case Lethe isn't played. If we don't wanna play Calill (more likely than all mentioned units save Elincia), Geoff's shit out of luck. Thirdly, Calill has 6 move, while he has 9. See a problem here? At least Haar's supports can keep up/not need babying just to keep alive. Fourthly, Elincia blows and we got plenty of healers by now, or at least we should. Fifthly, these help Haar's durability and his team mates, while offense is not the problem of our mage Calill. Offense boosts are needed only if they help you kill, durability is always appreciated. Sixthly, it's late in the game, and I'd appreciate not having to bring a unit I have to protect because if Elincia dies, it's game over no matter what. I thought I was done with that shit back when earlygame ended, but apparently we need to give Geoffery an excuse...

Geoffrey's offensive lead is just huge. Geoffrey doubles everything with KW access (most things without). Haar doubles maybe 25% of enemies, that's only Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Bishops, and a lot of the final maps are laguz heavy. This means Geoffrey deals double damage to 75% of enemies, and it's a tie on the other 25%. Haar can use the Brave Axe, but then Geoffrey has a 20 Mt weapon(forged Silver Lance), while Haar has a 10 Mt weapon, so Geoffrey's doing 20 more damage to every single enemy on the map. I think a massive offensive lead warrants two tiers in between them.

Mages are fine, but 2 untis, the bishops and generals, Haar has an advantage over, and it's a rather important one. Generals are rather tough to just kill like that, even for Geoffery. Wanna know something Haar can do that Geoff can't? Whip out an armorslaying weapon (Hammer). Haar can actually one round these suckers, while they're like a brick wall to Geoff. Bishops are also a problem, what with their bullshit healing. Thing is in most chapters, many things get in the way lategame for some chapters. Haar can reach them faster, and put an end to their BS, what with the terrain problems, or doors Haar busts through better.

By the way, charming argument with arguing a forge, where everyone wants one while no other axe user really cares for the brave axe.

Yeah, he's great against most other things, but Haar usually is able to reach them first, has a team that doesn't blow, and can actually kill something that Geoff can't.

I'll repeat myself, if Haar isn't more useful (more to a team than just killing things, you got PLENTY of people who can do that by now), he's at least not losing so badly as to be a tier below.