FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

I'm sick of seeing people dismiss Soren's healing utility because "it's unecessary" or "you have other healers". Maybe I wasnt' clear earlier about this, but the same logic applies to combat in many ways. We're not going to go around claiming Kieran isn't that special because there's 5 other paladins in the game who can do what he does at roughly the same proficiency.

18-25 A few characters come around and outclass Soren (Tanith, Callil, possibly Haar), but he still manages to maintain above averageness.

Soren is > Calill once both are in play. My comparison earlier showed that.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm sick of seeing people dismiss Soren's healing utility because "it's unecessary" or "you have other healers". Maybe I wasnt' clear earlier about this, but the same logic applies to combat in many ways. We're not going to go around claiming Kieran isn't that special because there's 5 other paladins in the game who can do what he does at roughly the same proficiency.

Soren is > Calill once both are in play. My comparison earlier showed that.

I might have inflated Soren's level a bit, but otherwise it should be accurate. There's still things Soren never wants to face such as tigers and cats, but that's still nowhere near being sniper level on enemy phase.

Oh and since we are being so hard on Soren's earlygame, now would be a good time for Calill > Soren.

20/5 Soren (A Ike, B Stefan, elwind): 32 hp, 27 atk, 19 AS, 7 def, 22 res, 77 avo

Base Calill (elthunder): 32 hp, 26 atk, 18 AS, 8 def, 17 res, 52 avo

Note: Both are using the best tomes that don't weigh them down.

Sure, Soren is a slight bit better on offence (1 atk and 1 AS) and much better in durability (25 avo >>> 1 def) but you also get Calill for free. Moreover, Calill wins durability growths (5% hp, 35% def, 10% avo) and also cuts heavily into Soren's avo lead with A Neph (+15 avo). It's a tough call since we also have to consider Soren has staves, but Calill has some minor advantages of her own such as high weapon rank (can use a lot of siege tomes off the bat) and giving outgoing support bonuses someone wants (Ike has other options, and Stefan's bonuses are very minor).

The second part seems to indicate Callil>Soren, I guess in general they're pretty close. Callil is mainly better than Soren since she doesn't have to suffer through earlygame issues like he does. That was a pretty small part of my post though, any other thoughts overall?

Staff utility is a bit different than combat utility because while there's almost always enough combat to be had, the number of staff users on a team is usually fairly small, mainly due to diminishing returns (you gain almost no efficiency by fielding 3+)

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

The second part seems to indicate Callil>Soren

The second part was about Calill’s durability approaching Soren’s. Yes, I argued Calill > Soren overall, but Soren is clearly better from the chapter Calill joins to endgame, and you were doing a chapter-by-chapter analysis, more or less.

That was a pretty small part of my post though, any other thoughts overall?

It needs to be more thorough. For instance, it makes little difference if Soren is slightly subpar in chapters that have high deployment, as long as he can find ways to contribute without demanding any protection or anything. An example would be Soren attacking over a plank chokepoint in chapter 13 (the one where you get Astrid).

I agree with your healing counterpoint, though it’s worth considering that Soren’s healing also allows him to gain exp faster than the average unit, and also allows him to be useful in situations where his durability doesn’t allow him to fight. That, along with lessening the need of someone like Rhys makes the return of healing reasonably significant in my opinion.

[grandjackal]

To simply keep a long story short since I've already covered it earlier, it means she still deprives better units of it, whether she uses it halfway through the chapter or at the start of it.

She'll have her full transformation bonuses for a while, but that doesn't last forever.

The fact she's instantly transformed while the others aren't? They get to keep it, she doesn't even really need it so badly. The fact she doesn't even need it that badly should speak better for her.

[Vykan12]

You could always let Lethe go wild, then once she reverts, she equips the demi-band (or even trades it off another laguz).

[dondon151]

-1+1+0 for Soren = 0

0+0+1 for Geoffrey= 1

Were you the one who did the retarded maths trying to total up avoid from support bonuses from each individual chapter? Because this is even more retarded.

Was anyone listening when I said that Soren fills some specific earlygame niches? Namely, the kill armors from a distance without eating a counter attack or equipping a shitty weapon kind?

[-Cynthia-]

It needs to be more thorough. For instance, it makes little difference if Soren is slightly subpar in chapters that have high deployment, as long as he can find ways to contribute without demanding any protection or anything. An example would be Soren attacking over a plank chokepoint in chapter 13 (the one where you get Astrid).

You have a good point, though this really only applies for chapters where we can very easily protect Soren. I suppose I can give him credit for 8(it's a defense map, though we do get BEXP from not fielding Soren), and 13. The other maps though, are either relatively restrictive on unit slots or are more wide open. This still gives Geoffrey a lead. I might cont some of the middle chapters as a neutral, since he's pretty much exactly average near the middle

No I wasn't, thank you for assuming though. The small chip damage Soren provides against Knights without Javelins really doesn't offset his constant needs for protection.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

There's also chapters 4-7 where Soren isn't taking up a slot (base isn't available yet), so Soren isn't getting any penalty for taking up the slot of a better unit. There will certainly be ways for Soren to make himself useful, no matter how small, such as taking advantages of cases where he has natural protection to work off of. What I mean is units do their thing as though Soren weren't around, but happen to form a decent protective wall that will allow Soren to attack at range safely. Then you have Soren being able to team up with other units for kills (Ike is just a few points short of ORKOing soldiers, for instance), which has its merits. Hell, we could even opt to not use Soren in earlygame at all while using extra BEXP to compensate for the missed CEXP. At any rate, Soren's earlygame fail can be minimized in various ways, and he can also contribute small positives in chapters where unit slots aren't competitive.

[dondon151]

No I wasn't, thank you for assuming though. The small chip damage Soren provides against Knights without Javelins really doesn't offset his constant needs for protection.

I honestly thought you did make that maths operation, but I didn't read the topic very carefully...

Soren's chip damage is hardly "small" when your other units can't even scratch armors. Hammer has a shitty hit rate and rapes avo while Armorslayer rapes AS, avo, and does little damage regardless of effectiveness. Soren is probably your second most useful dude against armors (like I said earlier). Even Ike has to take a counter, and Regal Blade's damage certainly isn't stellar by any means.

I also have to reiterate that I don't believe there is such thing as negative utility in this game, so assigning Soren a "-1" for earlygame doesn't accurately reflect the best way to use him. Like Vykan said, there will always be situations where Soren's presence hasn't required special treatment of any sort, yet he's still in a position to contribute.

Edited June 14, 2009 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

There's also chapters 4-7 where Soren isn't taking up a slot (base isn't available yet), so Soren isn't getting any penalty for taking up the slot of a better unit. There will certainly be ways for Soren to make himself useful, no matter how small, such as taking advantages of cases where he has natural protection to work off of. What I mean is units do their thing as though Soren weren't around, but happen to form a decent protective wall that will allow Soren to attack at range safely. Then you have Soren being able to team up with other units for kills (Ike is just a few points short of ORKOing soldiers, for instance), which has its merits. Hell, we could even opt to not use Soren in earlygame at all while using extra BEXP to compensate for the missed CEXP. At any rate, Soren's earlygame fail can be minimized in various ways, and he can also contribute small positives in chapters where unit slots aren't competitive.

Sort of, but if we're having to manuever units in specific ways just to wall Soren off that's not very efficient, as his damage output isn't really high enough to warrant this. And yes, we can just BEXP Soren instead of CEXP, but almost any unit can be good with lots of BEXP.

-8 Rolf(Rolf's Bow)

20 HP, 16 Atk, 10 AS, 8 Def, 4 Res, 27 Avo

8 Soren(Wind)

21 HP, 12 Atk , 10 AS, 3 Def, 10 Res, 27 Avo

How about Mia, a character two tiers below Soren mainly for earlygame issues?

11 Mia(Iron Sword)

24 HP, 14 Atk, 16 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res, 40 Avo

She's more durable, doubles everything, as opposed to only a few things, and can use WTA to beat axe users. She does have to eat counters, but she also can have an Enemy Phase.

Rolf, the supposed worst character in the game, is doing similar damage to Soren (4 Atk, as opposed to hitting Res), with the same AS. Rolf is more durable 5 Def> 1 HP and 6 Res. Rolf doesn't have 1-2 range, but Soren's Enemy Phase is usually non-existent anyway seeing as he gets 2HKOd.

Of course, Soren may have gained a few levels here or there, but considering his damage output and poor durability it won't be many. I see your point with the "small positives", but he still requires quite a bit of BEXP to be of any use, and he only grows into a slightly above average unit compared to the rest of the cast. I don't see what makes him that much different than Mia frankly.

Soren second best against Armors? Titania and Gatrie beat him, Boyd beats him since he can Hammer or do similar damage with Iron , Ike can OHKO with a Regal Sword crit.

Also, even if Soren does offer extremely minor utility durign earlygame, how does this help him level up? He isn't gaining much CEXP from only doing small chip damage once every few rounds, so we have to put lots of BEXP into him--a resource others could have used. Obviously Soren has to gain levels for him to have a decent midgame/lategame, but he can't do this without significant BEXP and/or suffering through his poor earlygame(having to feed him kills and the like).

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Alright now that my headache's gone, I think it's a good time I try this stuff Mekkah brought up.

Let's see...

C4: Soren joins here and is not taking up a spot from any1. While his durability is shit, getting 2RKOed and he's not doing as good as all the monsters on our team, he's not a detriment in this chapter because his chip damage is quite welcome. As proven some time ago, he's doubling the enemies and 2RKOing some just like Ike and he's got 1-2 range so he doesn't have worry about eating a counter-attack as often. People like Boyd would certainly like Soren to do some damage to an enemy so he wouldn't eat a counter-attack and if Soren were a detriment as some suggest, then we wouldn't use him in this chapter. This would hurt efficiency, he's not taking up a spot and his chip damage helps the team so why not use him? He's the worst unit in this chapter but he's not a detriment that's for sure. Oh and the whole "but he has low MOV" argument doesn't really work here as I doubt Boyd and Ike are always using their full MOV without ending up getting spanked for it. He doesn't have a hard time killing weakened enemies from say... Ike's enemy phase so he's definitely getting some kill EXP and though to some enemies being a few levels above him, it's decent EXP.

C5: A defense chapter, I think it's pretty safe to say once again, he's not a detriment here and his chip damage is welcomed. I'm not sure but I think there are some Knights in this chapter and like dondon suggested, Soren's some good help against these guys.

C6: I vaguely recall this one so I don't know if he's taking a spot from some1 or not =\, He's not doing bad offensively against the enemies but I can't tell for sure if MOV's an issue here. I think he'll be able to do some stuff here since the turn limit is 9 and you get some slight additional BEXP for every unit that escapes.

C7: Once again, not taking up a spot here and there's more Knights. He's rather comparable to Mia or probably better since they're both getting 2RKOed and Soren's got 1-2 range.

C8: Another defense map and more Knights. Can't recall if he's taking up some1's spot on this one but here it says that you're allowed 8 units and IIRC, Gatrie and Shinon have left and it's probably counting 8 because of Ilyana being recruited.

4 chapters so far and while he's been the worst unit of the bunch atm (except possibly Mia of course), he's been doubling a good bunch of enemies and he's been an asset since he's not taking any1's spot and it's efficient to use him.

C9: Hmm... Don't know whether he takes up a spot but unless he's underleveled here, he's once again doubling a good deal of enemies.

C10: According to Reikken's stats, we've got more Knights and more Soldiers who can be doubled by Soren so I guess he's not bad here either. Then the boss drops the first Master Seal and the 2nd one is in C11.

Now on to a point that seemed to be underrated: Early promotion.

10/1 Soren with Mage band all the way:

26 HP

2.45 STR

13.3 MAG

14.9 SKL

13.6 SPD

5.35 DEF

14.0 RES (meh, who cares about this one)

7.7 LCK

A possible C Ike Support.

10/1 Soren with one of the SPD growth bands would simply mean -0.90 MAG and +0.45 SPD which would result in 14 AS right off the bat.

This can happen at the start of C11 or C12. So with this, we get a decent combat unit and some1 who can easily replace Rhys since it'll just take 10 Heals for Soren to get D rank for Mend, Soren has 1 MOV over Rhys and of course, combat. Mist is not crying about that first Master Seal since a second one comes up in the next chapter and for her to even reach promotion at this point, she'd definitely need more BEXP than Soren.

During this time, he basically replaces both Mist and Rhys if "you only need 1 healer" since he can fight back and has better MOV, of course Mist will probably be considered better as soon as she gets her pony.

Take it as you will.

Also, even if Soren does offer extremely minor utility durign earlygame, how does this help him level up? He isn't gaining much CEXP from only doing small chip damage once every few rounds, so we have to put lots of BEXP into him--a resource others could have used. Obviously Soren has to gain levels for him to have a decent midgame/lategame, but he can't do this without significant BEXP and/or suffering through his poor earlygame(having to feed him kills and the like).

... Am I the only who thinks this is exaggerated? How is he having trouble getting a kill in C4 for example when he's doubling enemies doing 12 (18 if Adept kicks in) out of 23-25 HP? It's as if it's entirely impossible for him to get a kill from an enemy weakened by Ike or others during the enemy phase. If every1 has to 1 round in order to get a kill, then how the fuck are units like Ike leveling?

Kirsche said he's 2RKOed in that chapter (C4, also confirmed the truth of this after looking at the stats) so what's stopping him from being in range of an enemy for 1 enemy phase action and then kill that enemy on the player phase?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[dondon151]

Boyd's not there in chapter 4.

For chapter 6 the team would really like all of the offense it can get because there's Titania, Ike, Oscar, Boyd, and Soren. I'm pretty sure none of the last 4 can ORKO anything yet. Chapters 5 and 7 require no effort to use Soren. There's at least 3 earlygame chapters where Soren's presence is much appreciated.

Edited June 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Boyd's not there in chapter 4.

Ah right he's gone for that chapter. Thanks for the reminder.

[-Cynthia-]

Soren doesn't take up a slot until Ch9 for the record.

This can happen at the start of C11 or C12. So with this, we get a decent combat unit and some1 who can easily replace Rhys since it'll just take 10 Heals for Soren to get D rank for Mend, Soren has 1 MOV over Rhys and of course, combat. Mist is not crying about that first Master Seal since a second one comes up in the next chapter and for her to even reach promotion at this point, she'd definitely need more BEXP than Soren.

FIrst off, there are a rather limited amount of Master Seals in the game, 3 I believe, not counting the one that shows up in Chapter 21. it's a rather limited resource. Secondly. you're screwing up Soren's lategame to make his midgame better, again, it's about an even tradeoff. other units arguably use the Seal better this point since they're likely higher leveled and less room to grow.

... Am I the only who thinks this is exaggerated? How is he having trouble getting a kill in C4 for example when he's doubling enemies doing 12 (18 if Adept kicks in) out of 23-25 HP? It's as if it's entirely impossible for him to get a kill from an enemy weakened by Ike or others during the enemy phase. If every1 has to 1 round in order to get a kill, then how the fuck are units like Ike leveling?

He can't provide kills and chip damage at the same time, pretty much for Soren to get a kill another unit has to eat a counter. Adept has an 8% activation rate at this point, so good luck with that. As for his doubling, you are perhaps overrating his speed, he doesn't double everything.

There are 8 enemies he doesn't double on Ch4(over a third of the total) and probably the same amount on Chapter 5, the enemy stats disappear here. On Ch6 there are 3 Soldiers, 2 Archers, 2 Myrmidons, 1 Knight, 2 Mages, 1 Weapon Knights, 2 Priests and the boss that level 3/4 Soren doesn't double. Soren's actually only doubling about 1/3 of the map here(9/24). If Soren's level 2 or below, he's only doubling a 1/4.

Ch7 his doubling's almost non-existent, first due to having no attack at all due to a broken Wind tome. He can pick up a Fire tome, but this reduces his AS by 3, so his AS is worse than before.

And really there's still the issue of even if we count Soren's earlygame as an extremely minor positive, he's not going to have many levels, he'll need significant BEXP to catch up, BEXP is resource nearly everyone wants at this point.

And while 5 and 8 are defense maps, they both have plenty of ranged attackers as well, which can easily target Soren. Ch8 even has Longbow users.

Ugh I sure am tired of arguing about Soren.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Soren doesn't take up a slot until Ch9 for the record.

FIrst off, there are a rather limited amount of Master Seals in the game, 3 I believe, not counting the one that shows up in Chapter 21. it's a rather limited resource. Secondly. you're screwing up Soren's lategame to make his midgame better, again, it's about an even tradeoff. other units arguably use the Seal better this point since they're likely higher leveled and less room to grow.

@Bold: Not exactly, this is making him better than Rhys once that promotion happens and that stays even in the lategame so Soren > Rhys may be arguable. Hell, Mist is much higher than him even though she comes in C9 and that's because she has more MOV. While Soren may not have as much MOV lead, he's also got decent combat as well. You're getting more out of either of the first 2 Master Seals with Soren, a healer + good combat unit in one where every1 else is just getting some bonuses to their combat, which is already good in the case of Boyd, Oscar and such. Mist, gets the pony but it's not much of a big deal right now since your team isn't overrun with Paladins just yet and 6 MOV keeps up with Ike, Boyd and the like. Rhys... easily a worse option for early promotion than Soren at this point since Soren's got the better combat and the Staff rank he'll have over Soren will be somewhat superfluous since Soren gets Mend after 10 Heals anyway.

He can't provide kills and chip damage at the same time, pretty much for Soren to get a kill another unit has to eat a counter. Adept has an 8% activation rate at this point, so good luck with that. As for his doubling, you are perhaps overrating his speed, he doesn't double everything.

Lovely how the part about "killing an enemy weakened on the enemy phase" apparently went unnoticed. FFS now you're making it seem like no1's doing anything in the enemy phase because Soren hasn't attacked yet. What The Fuck.

Also, when did I say he's doubling everything? All I've been doing is showing that his doubling issues aren't as big as you and Kirsche have exaggerated.

There are 8 enemies he doesn't double on Ch4(over a third of the total) and probably the same amount on Chapter 5, the enemy stats disappear here. On Ch6 there are 3 Soldiers, 2 Archers, 2 Myrmidons, 1 Knight, 2 Mages, 1 Weapon Knights, 2 Priests and the boss that level 3/4 Soren doesn't double. Soren's actually only doubling about 1/3 of the map here(9/24). If Soren's level 2 or below, he's only doubling a 1/4.

Doubling 2/3s of the enemies on the map. Still decent, never said he's doubling everything and for what it's worth, 2 of those 8 would be possible for him to not double as well as possible for him to double.

Ch7 his doubling's almost non-existent, first due to having no attack at all due to a broken Wind tome. He can pick up a Fire tome, but this reduces his AS by 3, so his AS is worse than before.

Lucky for him he has a darn good chance of having +1 SPD making his AS 6 with Fire and 11 out of 21 enemies have 2 AS, 2 of them with a small chance of having 2 AS as well so that's a possible 13 out of 21 and 2 of the Armor Knights from the reinforcements are wielding Steel lances dropping their AS to 2 or below.

And really there's still the issue of even if we count Soren's earlygame as an extremely minor positive, he's not going to have many levels, he'll need significant BEXP to catch up, BEXP is resource nearly everyone wants at this point.

He's not leveling as slow as you think. Against the lowest level Soldiers in C4, he's getting 12 EXP for attacking and 30 for killing, he doesn't have much trouble killing since there's a good deal of enemies that can he can double and of course he's going to get BEXP if he's part of the team so why the hell did you use Level 4 Soren for C9 comparison earlier?

And while 5 and 8 are defense maps, they both have plenty of ranged attackers as well, which can easily target Soren. Ch8 even has Longbow users.

Are they 1 shotting him?

You're hardly even proving he's as detrimental as you think and it's been shown that he's an asset for some of the earlygame chapters he's in. IIRC, the whole point of Geoff going above Soren was that Soren was detrimental and the opposite was just proven plus the early promotion makes him comparable to Rhys.

At this point, I'm ready to move Soren above Geoffrey but first I want input from others on this.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

FIrst off, there are a rather limited amount of Master Seals in the game, 3 I believe, not counting the one that shows up in Chapter 21. it's a rather limited resource.

Okay, but who wants an early promotion aside from Soren and Mist? I guess you can save a level-up by seal-ing at lv 20, but that’s fairly minor.

Secondly. you're screwing up Soren's lategame to make his midgame better, again, it's about an even tradeoff.

Staves kind of offset the lower exp gain, particularly when he has the rank for physics. A 20/15 Soren isn’t that different from a 10/20 one.

He can't provide kills and chip damage at the same time, pretty much for Soren to get a kill another unit has to eat a counter.

12/25 damage isn’t chip damage, it’s 48% of the enemy’s hp. Someone like Boyd is easily doing >50% damage per hit, so Soren would in fact be saving a counter there. And Soren doesn’t have to turn a 1RKO into a 1HKO to be useful. Turning a 2RKO into a 1RKO also has obvious value. Again, Ike + Soren teaming up against a lance user is an easy example.

Ch7 his doubling's almost non-existent, first due to having no attack at all due to a broken Wind tome.

That’s not a certainty at all. I distinctly remember a playthrough where I favored Soren silly (he was lv 15 by the time I reached Gallia, and without BEXP) and his wind tome only broke halfway through this level. 40 uses is a lot to burn through in a mere 3 chapters, especially if Soren has doubling issues.

[-Cynthia-]

Just FYI, if Soren's going to move above Geoffrey he would also move above Callil, and there have been several good arguments of why Callil>Soren. But hey, if you move Soren above Callil I probably won't argue, because frankly I'm tired of debating FE9 Soren.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just FYI, if Soren's going to move above Geoffrey he would also move above Callil, and there have been several good arguments of why Callil>Soren. But hey, if you move Soren above Callil I probably won't argue, because frankly I'm tired of debating FE9 Soren.

That was before the earlier promotion was considered and Soren was thought to be a detriment in the earlygame like you and Kirsche insisted which was proven otherwise. That + Callil being the better supporter would be why she was considered better. With that in mind, Soren's been useful when Callil isn't around and has decent Staff rank when she joins and still provides healing and the faster EXP from staves should help him not fall too far behind Callil in combat.

Soren > Geoffrey. As previously stated, early promotion makes Soren comparable to Rhys. Once Soren's promoted, he's instantly better than Rhys and for Rhys to be better, the time he had healing when Soren didn't would have to be pretty darn significant to make it impossible for Soren to rise above. Though, the same can be said for Rhys vs Mist and she's way above him so what do you guys think?

Hmm.. this early promotion deal is a definite plus for Ilyana as well.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

New topic, I say we should look at Devdan vs Tauroneo (Tauro is currently higher).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

New topic, I say we should look at Devdan vs Tauroneo (Tauro is currently higher).

Earlier join time, better supports, better MOV. Yes, from what I'm seeing, Devdan should be closer to Tauro. Mind elaborating more though?

[Vykan12]

Yeah sure.

First off, Devdan has some great bases when he joins.

Devdan lv --/4 (steel lance): 36 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 11 def, 10 res, 42 avo

Oscar lv 18/0: 34 hp, 23 atk, 14 AS, 13 def, 9 res, 38 avo

I didn't include supports here because I'm just trying to establish that Devdan is a statistically solid unit. Being comparable to Oscar is a pretty impressive feat.

Support-wise, he has Nephenee and Tormod, both of which want him due to lack of alternatives. Not a major point, but remember that Devdan is helping these characters through outgoing supports before Tauroneo has even joined.

Next, Devdan has a very good growth spread, so he's going to be able to upkeep those high statistics pretty well. Assuming KW use, we're talking 75% hp/60% str/120% hit/65% spd/45% def/25% res/170% avo. The speed growth particularly helps cope with Devdan's biggest problem, which is his shaky doubling ability.

So if Soren's earlygame can be considered a small positive/negligible negative/wtv, then Devdan is scoring himself big points before Tauro joins. That's pretty significant since their recruitment is 5 chapters apart, which means Devdan has a whopping 38% more playtime.

Now Tauroneo joins.

Devdan lv --/8 (B Neph, steel lance): 39 hp, 27 atk, 15.6 AS, 13-15 def, 11-13 res, 54 avo

Tauroneo lv --/14 (steel lance): 48 hp, 32 atk, 13 AS, 22 def, 14 res, 40 avo

Though Tauroneo has a sizeable atk lead, that 2.6 AS gap arguably makes a much bigger difference. Basically, the shakier your AS is, the more an AS lead matters, and I’d bet Devdan is doubling at least twice as many enemies as Tauro is.

Defensively, there’s no argument that Tauroneo wins. However, a good deal of that is overkill (Tauro has lots of trouble reaching resolve hp without trying), and it seems to me Devdan would get 4-6HKOed most of the time with those hp/def numbers, so his sustainability on the frontlines is fine.

That would be the bulk of my argument. Tauroneo obviously wins hands down in the cases where he’s in resolve hp and he has better WTC. Then again, he only has Rolf and Largo for supports, so Devdan is actually beating him all game long in that regard.

Hopefully that should kill 2 birds in one stone: you can see why I think Devdan is underrated as well as a precise argument for why he should be > Tauroneo.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I'm convinced, but then the question becomes Devdan up, Tauroneo down, or a little of both? I woluld suggest they just switch (only Sothe is in between), but I guess it's up for debate.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Remind me again why Sothe is where he is.

For now, Devdan > Tauroneo.

[-Cynthia-]

Remind me again why Sothe is where he is.

For now, Devdan > Tauroneo.

He can open chests/doors and there are only two thieves in the game, so it's a big deal on a few maps. He could move down I guess, since almost every combat comparison with Sothe is meaningless due to him losing horribly, he's pure theiving utility.

Here are the maps Sothe is useful on:

Ch13 (chests)

Ch15(hidden items)

Ch21 (lots of chests/doors all over map)

Ch22 (chests, theives for competition)

Ch27 ( more chests/doors)

It's only 5 maps. The only map with chests I didn't include is Ch18, but that only has 2, so Volke can get them all on his own without using too many turns. We have to consider that Sothe can always be replaced with Volke or a Chest Key.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

I'd rearrange lower-mid a bit now that I think about it.

Before

Brom

Ilyana

Haar

Gatrie

Ranulf

Devdan

Tauroneo

Sothe

After

Brom

Ilyana

Haar

Ranulf

Devdan

Gatrie

Tauroneo

Sothe