FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

Kirsche said he's 2RKOed in that chapter (C4, also confirmed the truth of this after looking at the stats) so what's stopping him from being in range of an enemy for 1 enemy phase action and then kill that enemy on the player phase?

If he takes an attack, then he can't take an attack on the next enemy phrase. If he heals himself, he loses an attack on the player phrase. If Rhys heals him, you put Rhys in danger. Also, Soren may not kill then enemy if he doesn't double, and he doesn't double every enemy on the map.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

If he takes an attack, then he can't take an attack on the next enemy phrase. If he heals himself, he loses an attack on the player phase. If Rhys heals him, you put Rhys in danger.

@Bold: Which was done by that enemy phase he took. Also, if he takes an enemy phase from a direct attack unit, he can move a step back on the player phase to finish pest and reduce the chances of Rhys having to be put in range of any enemy attack >_>

@Italic: ... Then Rhys is in danger if he heals the others since they'll be in range of more enemies no?

Also, Soren may not kill then enemy if he doesn't double, and he doesn't double every enemy on the map.[/i]

Also, there's a handy thing called the "status screen/window/whateverthefuckyouwannacallit" and the calculations in this game aren't anywhere near calculus level so it's pretty easy to calculate whether or not Soren will double and if you know that Soren will not double and still place him in range knowing that it isn't accomplishing much, then you're stupid or gambling with Adept.

@Vykan: You have counter arguments ready?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Tino]

I'd rearrange lower-mid a bit now that I think about it.

Before

Brom

Ilyana

Haar

Gatrie

Ranulf

Devdan

Tauroneo

Sothe

After

Brom

Ilyana

Haar

Ranulf

Devdan

Gatrie

Tauroneo

Sothe

I'd argue Devdan somewhat higher, even. He's massively underrated, but you already showed he performs incredibly well at base, and then you've shown his growths to be rather incredible.

Earlier in this thread I've also shown Haar's offense is still rather ballz due to him not being able to double a lot. So for them it's basically being good for 7-8 chapters (counting ch 17 as more than one chapter) and superior offense vs flying and better durability. But the better durability isn't a major point since Devdan's durability is more than sufficient.

[Zkirsche]

I can even see Devdan > Ilyana due to better movement and better durability.

[dondon151]

Does Ilyana double anything?

Serious question, because 9 base speed and second lowest speed growth in the game (that's not fixable) does not make it appear so.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I can even see Devdan > Ilyana due to better movement and better durability.

It's possible Ilyana may rise since like Soren, she can promote early to instantly be a better healer than Rhys (and Mist till she gets her Pony and Paladins starts trampling everything) and that would give a slight booster to her AS which would allow her to do some doubling in the midgame as opposed to just waiting for her to hit 20/1 to end up not doubling as much.

Below Brom for Devdan sounds good though and since no1's arguing against Vykan's rearrangements and they look quite plausible, I'll set it up for now.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Does Ilyana double anything?

Serious question, because 9 base speed and second lowest speed growth in the game (that's not fixable) does not make it appear so.

Bands, we could toss her a Speedwing if needed. An early promotion helps her out as well, since it'll give her a speed boost and staff access. The same points for Soren pretty much apply for Illyana in regards to promoting early.

Let's not go crazy with the Devdan love here. In his opening chapter(assuming we trade away the Heavy Spear) , he only doubles the Knights and possibly a few of the soldiers. He can gain speed with the KW, but there is a lot of competition for the KW at this point. Astrid and Makalov both want it and gain more Exp than Devdan due to being unpromoted, Brom and Gatrie want it as well if they're fielded.

The bonuses from the KW speed boost don't kick in for a few chapters, so Devdan is stuck with lower offense than most for quite some time. Chapter 17 is very restrictive on unit slots in the earlier parts, so Devdan being fielded is somewhat of a negative. There is the possibility of using BEXP to negate the KW competition, but that's another resource Devdan's taking.

Support wise, he's below average. Tormod is unlikely to be fielded for one. There's Nephenee, though Nephenee actually gets better boosts from Callil(Avo>hit) Devdan comes sooner, but it's slower than Callil's, he's betetr short term she's better long term for Nephenee.

Overall Devdan is very dependent on the KW for offense, and he comes at a time where both it and unit slots are highly contested. He isn't beating base Haar in Str until 20/17 for instance, and without KW access only matches base Haar in speed at 20/14, plus Haar has more Mov, flying, Canto, and axes.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

If he takes an attack, then he can't take an attack on the next enemy phrase.

And when is that ever going to happen? Soren is virtually never taking counters on player phase due to 1-2 range. That is unless you meant he took an attack the enemy phase before, but that still allows him at least one attack per turn before he gets healed by Rhys.

If Rhys heals him, you put Rhys in danger.

That’s not necessarily true. How can Rhys heal anyone, let alone Soren, if healing is putting him in danger? Rhys could heal someone while still being on the backlines, then the healed unit moves out and attacks an enemy, or at least gets into their attack range for an E. phase counter.

I thought we were done with sandbagging Soren. Do you guys have some personal vendetta against him?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Question, the Growth bonus from KW would apply during a BEXP level up right?

Also, any1 against Soren > Rhys?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Question, the Growth bonus from KW would apply during a BEXP level up right?

Also, any1 against Soren > Rhys?

They do, and that's the only reason that we can consider KW access for Devdan with Makalov/Astrid recently arrived. However, he is going to require BEXP, which is a resource he's taking up. he's taking up more of it than many because he's already promoted.

Soren>Rhys sounds fair. Rhys pretty much becomes obsolete after Soren/Illyana/Mist promote.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Let's not go crazy with the Devdan love here. In his opening chapter(assuming we trade away the Heavy Spear) , he only doubles the Knights and possibly a few of the soldiers.

You’re not accounting for AS lost from weapons then.

Devdan can double steel axe fighters, as well as lower-end ones regardless of weapon choice. He’s also double all mages except wind tome users. Actually, according to Reikken’s data on that level, the only things Devdan doesn’t really double is a lone sniper and some myrmidons.

He can gain speed with the KW, but there is a lot of competition for the KW at this point.

Thankfully, it’s a trade-able item, and Devdan only needs it when he’s about to level-up. Since he is --/4, he levels up pretty slowly, so that shouldn’t be an issue.

Also, I don’t see who would actually gain more from the KW than Devdan. For Astrid, BEXP works in tandem with paragon, so BEXPing her to lv 11 or higher is actually pretty reasonable. That would already give her 15 AS, and she gains 0.5 every level-up, something that occurs very frequently due to still being under-levelled + paragon.

Makalov is pretty much the same deal, though to a lesser extent (he’s not as efficient with BEXP). Then again, it only takes Makalov 5 levels with the KW to have 15 AS, which soon jumps past 17 once promotion is factored in.

Sure there’s Gatrie and Brom, but they’re not likely fielded, and the remaining candidates (Oscar, Titania, Nephenee) have stellar AS, so the KW is only really boosting their avo until they hit their cap.

Chapter 17 is very restrictive on unit slots in the earlier parts, so Devdan being fielded is somewhat of a negative.

If that’s an issue, just field him later, such as in 17.3. The other units in lower-mid suffer from this same problem anyway, so it’s a neutral point.

There is the possibility of using BEXP to negate the KW competition, but that's another resource Devdan's taking.

Or rather, other units using KW + BEXP eliminates their need to use it in combat, since their spd issues are more easily corrected.

There's Nephenee, though Nephenee actually gets better boosts from Callil(Avo>hit) Devdan comes sooner, but it's slower than Callil's, he's better short term she's better long term for Nephenee.

Both Brom and Calill need to be supporting Neph for Devdan not to help her. It’s pretty questionable that two mid-ish units will be in play consecutively, let alone both taking her (Brom has Boyd and Zihark, after all, and those 2 characters really want Brom’s support).

and without KW access only matches base Haar in speed at 20/14, plus Haar has more Mov, flying, Canto, and axes.

That’s assuming Devdan doesn’t get any KW access at all. Even if Devdan had major competition for it, he’s still at least getting partial bonuses from it, and gaining a point of spd every 3 levels is a very considerable boost.

Also, you said this about Ilyana’s AS issues earlier.

Bands, we could toss her a Speedwing if needed.

So apparently speedwings are in a low enough demand that we can put one onto Ilyana, but not even mention it when considering Devdan? A bit of a double standard methinks.

[Dat Nick]

edt: nevermind

Edited June 14, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Good BB. Anyway, I'm going to put Ilyana over Rhys as well due to having the same advantage Soren got.

[Dat Nick]

Um..that's...WAY too much of a jump for no good reason. Staff utility isn't THAT awesome.

[Zkirsche]

Um..that's...WAY too much of a jump for no good reason. Staff utility isn't THAT awesome.

I have to second this. You should've brought Rhys down, not move Soren and Ilyana up.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

In a sea of many combat units, it is a good asset to have some1 who can provide healing as well as and doing some decent combat. To lower them is to suggest that healing isn't valuable at all when that is just flat out bullshit.

Kirsche, you seem to be hellbent on lowering Soren as you're constantly agreeing on every argument that goes against him and coming up to the point of this stupidity:

If he takes an attack, then he can't take an attack on the next enemy phrase. If he heals himself, he loses an attack on the player phrase. If Rhys heals him, you put Rhys in danger. Also, Soren may not kill then enemy if he doesn't double, and he doesn't double every enemy on the map.

Try to be less subjective.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

In a sea of many combat units, it is a good asset to have some1 who can provide healing as well as and doing some decent combat.

Here's the thing, Ilyana's combat isn't exactly decent. It's to the point where Rhys has better offense than her for most of the game.

Furthermore, she just hopped above a bunch of people because "staves lol". "staves lol" didn't launch Soren to high tier, it kept him where he was.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Here's the thing, Ilyana's combat isn't exactly decent. It's to the point where Rhys has better offense than her for most of the game.

Furthermore, she just hopped above a bunch of people because "staves lol". "staves lol" didn't launch Soren to high tier, it kept him where he was.

@Bold: Prove it. This seems to be just as much exaggeration as Fa being ORKOed on her joining chapter.

Furthermore, Soren is above her because he's clearly superior in combat and has been proven to be an asset for the earlygame chapters despite being the weakest unit (not counting Mia and Ilyana).

[Zkirsche]

Try to be less subjective.

He's my favourite character in the game. I use him every run and raep the living hell out of everything. I had him solo (Save Ashnard) Endgame once. However, this doesn't change the fact that he's overall a mediocre unit.

Anyway, our point was that healing utility just isn't that valuable. This game isn't exactly renowned for being hard, and by the time Ilyana and Soren can heal, everyone's durability is up to scratch as underlevelled units like Jill and Marcia have caught up to the rest of the team and supports have kicked in. Then, thier combat utility is lowered by their pathetic durability, making them almost likes Snipers and their movement is barely enougth to keep up with the team in the first place.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

He's my favourite character in the game. I use him every run and raep the living hell out of everything. I had him solo (Save Ashnard) Endgame once. However, this doesn't change the fact that he's overall a mediocre unit.

Sure didn't look that way with all the sandbagging he's been getting and it was mostly coming from you and Cynthia >_>

Anyway, our point was that healing utility just isn't that valuable. This game isn't exactly renowned for being hard, and by the time Ilyana and Soren can heal, everyone's durability is up to scratch as underlevelled units like Jill and Marcia have caught up to the rest of the team and supports have kicked in. Then, thier ocmbat utility is lowered by their pathetic durability, making them almost likes Snipers and their movement is barely enougth to keep up with the team in the first place.

Yeah... no, this WAS true but uh...

Early promotion. There's a seal on C10 and another in C11. Soren, Ilyana and Mist make the best use of it. Early promotion for Soren or Ilyana means Rhys gets replaced by some1 who's just 10 heals away from Mend and is a decent combat unit at this point.

Initially this advantage was just intended for Soren and Mist was the only competition but Ilyana makes decent use of it if Soren's not being played and we can't assume he always is.

This however does call for Mist dropping a bit. Question is where and what does the Mist defender have to say.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

I suppose that's true.

Mist should definitely drop down to where Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are because she can only be promoted early after like 4 chapters or so. Meaning the healing utility is not an advantage for her.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I suppose that's true.

Mist should definitely drop down to where Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are because she can only be promoted early after like 4 chapters or so. Meaning the healing utility is not an advantage for her.

Apparently it's mostly because her pony lets her keep up with the trampling Paladins so she doesn't have to use Physic to heal those guys and healing + canto is pretty good. Questionable that it is good enough to have that gap though, as Ilyana/Soren do have some time where they're better (that being, before Mist's promotion and the time where our units aren't so freaking far away from our 6 MOV healers) Hmm...

Red Fox was the one who defended her the most so I'm kinda waiting to see if she's got any good counter arguments to prevent Mist from dropping a bit. BB kinda defended her too on the whole "Mist gets Arm Scrolls and occult scroll because nobody cares about Arm Scrolls and all skills not named Sol suck + there's 4 to choose from". Saw that as too much favoritism but couldn't do much about it at that point =\

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

@Bold: Prove it. This seems to be just as much exaggeration as Fa being ORKOed on her joining chapter.

...What, it's not obvious?

15/1 Rhys with Ellight has 23 ATK.

10/1 Ilyana with Elthunder has 18 ATK.

One look at the MAG gap between them didn't tell everything? :/

Saw that as too much favoritism but couldn't do much about it at that point =\

I'd be more than willing to drop one of those points if you could show me another real use for the arms scroll, although I'm afraid you're rather stuck on the Sol point seeing as how it's a pretty undeniable fact that non-Sol skills are rubbish :/

Edited June 14, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Dr. Tarrasque]

...What, it's not obvious?

15/1 Rhys with Ellight has 23 ATK.

10/1 Ilyana with Elthunder has 18 ATK.

One look at the MAG gap between them didn't tell everything? :/

No, it isn't.

Rhys is 15/1 when Ilyana is 10/1 because...?

By Ellight, I'm going to assume you mean Shine.

Also, we're giving Elthunder to Ilyana if she's not doubling with Thunder and she's got a good chance of doing that around time she's promoted. Good luck to Rhys.

I'd be more than willing to drop one of those points if you could show me another real use for the arms scroll, although I'm afraid you're rather stuck on the Sol point seeing as how it's a pretty undeniable fact that non-Sol skills are rubbish :/

Mist. Is. Getting. The. Arm. Scrolls. Just. So. She. Can. Use. The. Sonic. Sword.

There's also Rune Sword but other people would love some use of that one.

Anyway, any1 would like an Arm Scroll if it means boosting thier weapon rank to use a superior weapon sooner, while we're just feeding these scrolls so can make so decent use out of 1 stinking sword and another desired by others?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Shadow Mir]

...What, it's not obvious?

15/1 Rhys with Ellight has 23 ATK.

10/1 Ilyana with Elthunder has 18 ATK.

One look at the MAG gap between them didn't tell everything? :/

Except Ellight doesn't exist in this game. You meant Shine. And Shine rapes Rhys' AS.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin