FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

He can help destroy the reinforcements that tale you, he can rescue people who fell into traps, can take ballistae shots even without full guard because he's not a pussy, completely ignores traps and the barricades, I fail to see how he's not being helpful here.

He comes in too late to be of any real use though, your team should be well across the bridge by the time he's recruited. it's not like he deals well with Ballista shots either, he's 2HKOd, OHKO with a crit, so hyping that isn't helping your case.

Yes, a meaningless win at the twisted tower, aside from the fact Haar could be weakening enemies before Geoff can even arrive at them. OH! and ignore the HUGE destructive win he has over Geoff at the mountain where he and his horse can barely move, where fliers are ultimately the best mobility here. On top of that, he has some of the best durability, and he's likely tougher now so he has no problems taking some ballistae shots. Can get to those damn rock shovers before anyone else, can help kill the boss quicker. Geoff's lucky just to see action here. That avoid lead is bigger thanks to his Makalov support, a character who isn't mediocre.

The ballistae still OHKO or 2HKO him, so good luck with that. Makalov support doesn't help him, since if he's actually using his flying utility he won't be in support range.

Oh yeah, the KW. SO fair to give it to him, I mean it benefits NO ONE else, doesn't it? I mean god, how stupid of me to think Nephenee, Devden, Brom, Gatrie, Titania, Makalov, Oscar, Kieran or Astrid wanting that, oh no sir! How stupid of me! Anyone can benefit from +2 defense and resistance, but Full Guard is at least relative use. Marcia and Tanith are still hurt by ballistae shots even with it equipped, while Haar starts out the box good enough to even take a shot or 2 (depending on ballistae type). His only competition for good use of it is Jill. MUCH less than Geoff.

All of those characters have had KW access for at least 9 chapters before Geoffrey arrives (and that's counting 17 as only one chapter), so you're going to have to come up with a very good case of why Geoffrey has no access to it, especially for BEXP purposes. Tanith and Marcia go from being OHKod by Ballistae to 3-4HHKOD at worst, which helps their durability a ton on these maps. Saying that the KW is more contested that the Full Guard at this point is simply stupid. There's also the point that without the KW Haar beats Geoffrey by an insignificant amount durability wise, hyping Haar having a "durability lead" despite being weak to bows and wind magic doesn't help you in the last.

Speaking of which, I recall most of the black knight chapter being a lot of slow-ass enemies anyways. Haar with his better strength and axes helps bust down doors faster, which helps us get through the chapter more efficiently. Lots of generals, sages and bishops.

Let's conveniently ignore the point that Geoffrey has essentially the same Atk as Haar(+ or - a point or two depending on supports), despite the fact that's it's been shown multiple times. Haar using Axes adds a grant total of 1 Mt. Generals, Bishops, and Sages do not make up 50% or more of the enemy composititon in this level and as such Geoffrey has a large offensive lead.

Many problems with this. First off, Makalov is a much better unit. Secondly, he is another option for Jill in case Lethe isn't played. If we don't wanna play Calill (more likely than all mentioned units save Elincia), Geoff's shit out of luck. Thirdly, Calill has 6 move, while he has 9. See a problem here? At least Haar's supports can keep up/not need babying just to keep alive. Fourthly, Elincia blows and we got plenty of healers by now, or at least we should. Fifthly, these help Haar's durability and his team mates, while offense is not the problem of our mage Calill. Offense boosts are needed only if they help you kill, durability is always appreciated. Sixthly, it's late in the game, and I'd appreciate not having to bring a unit I have to protect because if Elincia dies, it's game over no matter what. I thought I was done with that shit back when earlygame ended, but apparently we need to give Geoffery an excuse...

Callil gets a durability boost simply by having a support, since Dark adds to her Avo. It's not like she has other options anyway, since Tormod's a Fire affinity as well and he isn't as good as Geoffrey in the first place. Also, it's not like Makalov or Jill gets a ton better after the durability boost, since they should be plenty durable before Haar even arrives. Haar's supports are better, but defintely not "hugely better", since Haar's supports add little to his or his partner's durability (and nothing to his Atk).

Mages are fine, but 2 untis, the bishops and generals, Haar has an advantage over, and it's a rather important one. Generals are rather tough to just kill like that, even for Geoffery. Wanna know something Haar can do that Geoff can't? Whip out an armorslaying weapon (Hammer). Haar can actually one round these suckers, while they're like a brick wall to Geoff. Bishops are also a problem, what with their bullshit healing. Thing is in most chapters, many things get in the way lategame for some chapters. Haar can reach them faster, and put an end to their BS, what with the terrain problems, or doors Haar busts through better.

Because Geoffrey is totally incapable of using a Heavy Spear to do the exact same thing. Haar very rarely reaches things faster, since they have the same Mov and the final few maps are relatively free of major terrain issues. Also, I doubt Haar possibly having 1 more Atk really leads to breaking doors down much faster.

By the way, charming argument with arguing a forge, where everyone wants one while no other axe user really cares for the brave axe.

I can't believe you're serious about this, you're actually arguing that in a game where you get as much money as PoR, a forge is more harmful to team efficiency than a limited use unique item. Lol.

Yeah, he's great against most other things, but Haar usually is able to reach them first, has a team that doesn't blow, and can actually kill something that Geoff can't.

They're on the same team....and while there's nothing Haar kills that Geoffrey can't, Geoffrey ORKOS plenty of things that Haar has issues with, essentially the 75% of enemies he doubles that Haar doesn't.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

He comes in too late to be of any real use though, your team should be well across the bridge by the time he's recruited. it's not like he deals well with Ballista shots either, he's 2HKOd, OHKO with a crit, so hyping that isn't helping your case.

Who the hell isn't worried about Killer Ballistae? Those by the way take 3 shots to kill him without a crit. Weakness to bows you said? He doesn't seem to be that weak, considering he can take 3 ballistae shots.

As for joining too late, a couple things. 1. There are enemies that tail you, which he can kill for exp (he's the closest one there, ain't he?), and 2. If that's the case, the ballistae shouldn't be that much of a problem. Not like he can't just close the gap with his 9 move and flight.

The ballistae still OHKO or 2HKO him, so good luck with that. Makalov support doesn't help him, since if he's actually using his flying utility he won't be in support range.

Actually, by now he's bound to have gotten a point in defense and HP, which case he gets 3RKOd by the strongest ballistae. If he supports Jill, all he needs is 1 HP. Of course that support is iffy, but considering what little he needs? It's no biggie.

All of those characters have had KW access for at least 9 chapters before Geoffrey arrives (and that's counting 17 as only one chapter), so you're going to have to come up with a very good case of why Geoffrey has no access to it, especially for BEXP purposes. Tanith and Marcia go from being OHKod by Ballistae to 3-4HHKOD at worst, which helps their durability a ton on these maps. Saying that the KW is more contested that the Full Guard at this point is simply stupid. There's also the point that without the KW Haar beats Geoffrey by an insignificant amount durability wise, hyping Haar having a "durability lead" despite being weak to bows and wind magic doesn't help you in the last.

BEXP purposes is fine, but I never argued Geoff had better offense. I admitted it even. The question is who gets to the action first, and who's more utility?

However, he is not entitled to the +2 def and res it gives in battle.

Yes, they could go from OHKOd-3-4HKOd, but Haar can go from that to being invincible to them, so not only ca he just flat out ignore them, this allows him to climb the hill and smoke whoever's up there before anyone else. This is without hype, he just arrives being able to do this.

Let's conveniently ignore the point that Geoffrey has essentially the same Atk as Haar(+ or - a point or two depending on supports), despite the fact that's it's been shown multiple times. Haar using Axes adds a grant total of 1 Mt. Generals, Bishops, and Sages do not make up 50% or more of the enemy composititon in this level and as such Geoffrey has a large offensive lead.

Assuming they are at equal levels, which they are not, and even then they wouldn't be at equal strength. You have to take into account Haar's earlier chapters, and the mountain chapter where Haar saw a fuckload of action, while Geoff saw absolutely minimum, if any.

Callil gets a durability boost simply by having a support, since Dark adds to her Avo. It's not like she has other options anyway, since Tormod's a Fire affinity as well and he isn't as good as Geoffrey in the first place. Also, it's not like Makalov or Jill gets a ton better after the durability boost, since they should be plenty durable before Haar even arrives. Haar's supports are better, but defintely not "hugely better", since Haar's supports add little to his or his partner's durability (and nothing to his Atk).

Oh my, 6 avoid, SO HUGE! Besides, Tormod wouldn't mind the boosts as she gets these boosts earlier, and he gets boosts that help him become better faster. He sucks at first, but he's gonna be pretty awesome by the time Geoff shows up. 8 move on a mage (sages have 6 move, right?), staffs and magic damage is saucy. Sniper magic included, Tormod certainly enjoys the accuracy and power. The avoid boost is a bit "who cares", but moar magic damage is yum.

You say I hype units, yet you claim that SOMEHOW Haar's supports are worse than Geoff's. Where do you get the balls? It's fucking Makalov and possibly Jill as opposed to ew Calill (who mathematically cannot keep up with him) and Elincia (a unit we have to baby just to have...a healer). Both have fucking thunder. One can keep up with him indefinitely, and Makalov can keep up on him on non-flier friendly maps. All 3 have access to axes and WT control in general (granted, Mak's is worse, ew swords), so all 3 would enjoy the avoid boosts. The defensive boosts are just icing on the cake.

Because Geoffrey is totally incapable of using a Heavy Spear to do the exact same thing. Haar very rarely reaches things faster, since they have the same Mov and the final few maps are relatively free of major terrain issues. Also, I doubt Haar possibly having 1 more Atk really leads to breaking doors down much faster.

Go check out twisted tower with it's hedges and terrain additives, go look at the mountain, and go look at endgame and say that again. The hedges are a bit annoying and there is a small gap to get into the clearing that a flier can simply ignore and free up room so foot soldiers can get through faster (along with paladins), the mountain is a paladin's worst nightmare while it's a wyvern's wet dream, and endgame has the fountain railings, the hedges and the front ledges that get in the way. Endgame looks straightforward when rather it's got quite some twists and turns for those stuck on the ground.

Again, you assume Geoff has a level lead.

...Wait, the heavy spear is in this game? Err....

I can't believe you're serious about this, you're actually arguing that in a game where you get as much money as PoR, a forge is more harmful to team efficiency than a limited use unique item. Lol.

Cynthia, thought you ought to know, this ain't RD. Forges are only 1 allowed a chapter. He's not specifically entitled to one.

Or are you assuming poor Geoffery needs one to meet his offense output? Haven't you been arguing against this the whole time? Before you say the brave axe will break, lemme ask you this. What the hell else are we gonna use the hammerne staff on aside from the brave weapons? Lemme guess, Geoff's forge?

They're on the same team....and while there's nothing Haar kills that Geoffrey can't, Geoffrey ORKOS plenty of things that Haar has issues with, essentially the 75% of enemies he doubles that Haar doesn't.

I meant the team as in Makalov and (maybe) Jill. They're both better than Calill and Elincia, and don't need to be walled in as often (and most of the time can keep up with him, as opposed to Calill who just mathematically can't, unless you're purposefully holding Geoff back for her sake).

Geoff does have better offense like I've repeatedly admitted, but there is nothing that Geoff can touch that Haar might have already tapped. Hell, some enemies Geoff actually CAN'T kill that Haar can, like people on the mountain. Or people before Geoff existed.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Kuja

[-Cynthia-]

Who the hell isn't worried about Killer Ballistae? Those by the way take 3 shots to kill him without a crit. Weakness to bows you said? He doesn't seem to be that weak, considering he can take 3 ballistae shots.

2HKOd by Long Ballistae. Also 2HKOd with a sliver of health left is not very encouraging, certainly worse than anything Geoffrey has to deal with. Also for the record, Haar's speed disadvantage means he's doubled and thus ORKOd by Ashnard, Geoffrey is not.

As for joining too late, a couple things. 1. There are enemies that tail you, which he can kill for exp (he's the closest one there, ain't he?), and 2. If that's the case, the ballistae shouldn't be that much of a problem. Not like he can't just close the gap with his 9 move and flight.

Most of the units moving across the bridge should have high Mov and some flight, so Haar will take quite a while to catch up. It's true that Haar doesn't do absolutely nothing on this map, but touting his performance here as even a significant advanatge is questionable.

BEXP purposes is fine, but I never argued Geoff had better offense. I admitted it even. The question is who gets to the action first, and who's more utility?

Again, your hyping Haar's flying utility way too much. It has essentially no effect on Chapter 26, 27 and Endgame, and is only sort of useful in Twisted Tower since Haar can't ORKO anything here anyway. On the maps where flying doesn't matter (most of the maps they share), they have equal Mov.

However, he is not entitled to the +2 def and res it gives in battle.

No, but the possibility of him equipping it is still there.

, they could go from OHKOd-3-4HKOd, but Haar can go from that to being invincible to them, so not only ca he just flat out ignore them, this allows him to climb the hill and smoke whoever's up there before anyone else. This is without hype, he just arrives being able to do this.

This still doesn't mean Haar is entitled to the Full Guard, since both of the Peg Knights are pretty durable by this point due to high Avo. Their offense is overall better than Haar's due to doubling consistently, not to mention Tanith can have effective damage on Wyverns with the Sonic Sword.

Assuming they are at equal levels, which they are not, and even then they wouldn't be at equal strength. You have to take into account Haar's earlier chapters, and the mountain chapter where Haar saw a fuckload of action, while Geoff saw absolutely minimum, if any.

It's pretty amusing to claim Haar has a level lead when they have the same starting level and Geoffrey has Paragon.

Oh my, 6 avoid, SO HUGE! Besides, Tormod wouldn't mind the boosts as she gets these boosts earlier, and he gets boosts that help him become better faster. He sucks at first, but he's gonna be pretty awesome by the time Geoff shows up. 8 move on a mage (sages have 6 move, right?), staffs and magic damage is saucy. Sniper magic included, Tormod certainly enjoys the accuracy and power. The avoid boost is a bit "who cares", but moar magic damage is yum.

So Geoffrey adding to Callil's attack is worthless, but Tormod needs an attack boost? Rather hypocritical. Tormod shows up at Level 7 when most units should be nearimg promotion, his chance to be fielded at all is pretty low.

You say I hype units, yet you claim that SOMEHOW Haar's supports are worse than Geoff's. Where do you get the balls? It's fucking Makalov and possibly Jill as opposed to ew Calill (who mathematically cannot keep up with him) and Elincia (a unit we have to baby just to have...a healer). Both have fucking thunder. One can keep up with him indefinitely, and Makalov can keep up on him on non-flier friendly maps. All 3 have access to axes and WT control in general (granted, Mak's is worse, ew swords), so all 3 would enjoy the avoid boosts. The defensive boosts are just icing on the cake.

If you actually knew how to read, you would have seen that I conceded Haar's supports were better than Geoffrey's , just not "hugely better" as you claimed. They both give pretty fair supports all in all, to units that for the most part don't need the boosts, but get some benefit from them.

Again, you assume Geoff has a level lead.

He's got Paragon, which means he's gaining twice Haar's Exp. This tends to result in a level lead.

Cynthia, thought you ought to know, this ain't RD. Forges are only 1 allowed a chapter. He's not specifically entitled to one.

The game has 23 chapters with forge access and we're likely only using 10-15 characters max, it's not unreasonable for any character to get a forge. You are one of many who have attempted to claim forges are a huge drain of resources in PoR/RD, and this simply isn't true.

Or are you assuming poor Geoffery needs one to meet his offense output? Haven't you been arguing against this the whole time? Before you say the brave axe will break, lemme ask you this. What the hell else are we gonna use the hammerne staff on aside from the brave weapons? Lemme guess, Geoff's forge?

With just a plain Silver Lance, Geoffrey is still beating Brave Axe Haar by 5 attack, so 10 attack on every opponent, not to mention he can use something like a Laguz Lance to easily ORKO laguz and still double. A forge is perfectly reasonable for Geoffrey, but he still beats Haar in Atk regardless of the weapon we use (unless you try to argue that he's using an Iron/Slim Lance, even you aren't that desperate).

I meant the team as in Makalov and (maybe) Jill. They're both better than Calill and Elincia, and don't need to be walled in as often (and most of the time can keep up with him, as opposed to Calill who just mathematically can't, unless you're purposefully holding Geoff back for her sake).

By your theory, Makalov can't keep up with Haar either since he has this amazing flight that lets him go to tons of magical places no one else can reach.

Geoff does have better offense like I've repeatedly admitted, but there is nothing that Geoff can touch that Haar might have already tapped. Hell, some enemies Geoff actually CAN'T kill that Haar can, like people on the mountain. Or people before Geoff existed.

If you hype Haar's flight or 1.25 chapter advantage over Geoff doubling 75% more enemies one more time I'm going to cut myself.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

2HKOd by Long Ballistae. Also 2HKOd with a sliver of health left is not very encouraging, certainly worse than anything Geoffrey has to deal with. Also for the record, Haar's speed disadvantage means he's doubled and thus ORKOd by Ashnard, Geoffrey is not.

1 HP and defense is all he needs, and he might come out with it after bashing in the paladin skulls from your tail end.

...Are you serious? Are you trying to send people who can't even hurt Ashnard into his attack range? NO ONE should be in his range aside from Ike and the royal of your chosing. The fact you're falling back on durability to Ashnard is stupendous.

Most of the units moving across the bridge should have high Mov and some flight, so Haar will take quite a while to catch up. It's true that Haar doesn't do absolutely nothing on this map, but touting his performance here as even a significant advanatge is questionable.

They do run into them holes, so maybe not as much as you think?

Besides, I will say he's not the most useful person on your team, but helping protect your tail, flight, and his durability isn't exactly something to be ignored here. Either way, the main point here is to show how he gets his level lead in the first place.

Again, your hyping Haar's flying utility way too much. It has essentially no effect on Chapter 26, 27 and Endgame, and is only sort of useful in Twisted Tower since Haar can't ORKO anything here anyway. On the maps where flying doesn't matter (most of the maps they share), they have equal Mov.

The various twists and turns he still not need deal with. His flier utility is essentially no effect on Endgame? I just told you how it is, yet you ignore me. Goeff's pathing is rigid, Haar's is not. Seriously, go look at the endgame map again.

Speaking of another chapter where flier utility comes in use, Bertram's level. There is a ridge seperating the sniper mages and you if you go north.Geoff has to go around, while Haar can just fly up and smoketh these punks. Both are rather prone to sleep, so it's a null issue for both. However, the fact you can restore Haar and fly up there to get rid of him is much better than having to go around.

No, but the possibility of him equipping it is still there.

So is Haar with his FullGuard, your point? Speaking of which, some chapters have nothing for him to fear (since wind mages are fucking scarce, if even existent by the time Haar even shows up, he's durable enough to turn archers into bitches) and can just equip a growth band, like thief, or knight, whichever does him the most good.

This still doesn't mean Haar is entitled to the Full Guard, since both of the Peg Knights are pretty durable by this point due to high Avo. Their offense is overall better than Haar's due to doubling consistently, not to mention Tanith can have effective damage on Wyverns with the Sonic Sword.

and Geoff isn't entitled to KW, even moreso than Haar with the Full Guard. You're walking in circles.

It's pretty amusing to claim Haar has a level lead when they have the same starting level and Geoffrey has Paragon.

REEEALLY now?

First two chapters before Geoff, he can easily have gained a level or two, and it's not like he suddenly stopped gaining exp when Geoff shows up. Then consider how he gets in on some of the action first, and the fact that Geoff is nigh useless on the mountain, while Haar can easily killface most of it (just to simplify it, he's one of the best units on that map). Both only have 11 levels to grow before they hit the roof. If Geoff does manage to pull ahead, it isn't for long when they both finally hit the roof anyways.

You also seem to be adamant to admitting how bad Geoff is on hte mountain. You know what his move is there? I'm not really sure myself, but I'm positive it's around 2-4. Armor Knights move further. Unpromoted Armor Knights. Haar is raping him so bad on this map it isn't even funny. Geoff's lucky to even SEE enemies, much less fight them.

So Geoffrey adding to Callil's attack is worthless, but Tormod needs an attack boost? Rather hypocritical. Tormod shows up at Level 7 when most units should be nearimg promotion, his chance to be fielded at all is pretty low.

If Tormod is to be used, he's absolutely garunteed Calill. 1. Both have similar jobs, 2. He'd love the boosts to catch up faster, 3. He comes quite a bit earlier, 4. Calill is actually around him! Surprise! Calill can't receive boosts from Geoff is he's too fucking far away. It's not so much Geoff is a lousy unit, as much as he's a lousy unit to support. At least for mages anyways.

Speaking of which, Elincia has an even worse chance of joining than Tormod, so I suppose you can go ahead and eat it.

If you actually knew how to read, you would have seen that I conceded Haar's supports were better than Geoffrey's , just not "hugely better" as you claimed. They both give pretty fair supports all in all, to units that for the most part don't need the boosts, but get some benefit from them.

1. Yes, they are hugely better hugely better, as his two don't necessarily move out of his range turn 1 (Geoff and Haar will essentially have the same move on some maps, riiiight?).

2. I don't care what you say, all units love more defense and avoid.

3. Calill isn't even that good in the first place, while Mak daddy and Jill Sandwedge are infinitely better.

He's got Paragon, which means he's gaining twice Haar's Exp. This tends to result in a level lead.

Haar exists for 2 chapters beforehand where he's actually doing something (one of them he's quite awesome to have around no less), he's entitled to bexp for those levels just like anyone else, Geoff can't do dick on the mountain while Haar's practically a demi-god there...

The game has 23 chapters with forge access and we're likely only using 10-15 characters max, it's not unreasonable for any character to get a forge. You are one of many who have attempted to claim forges are a huge drain of resources in PoR/RD, and this simply isn't true.

Because forges never break, rite? 15 people, 23 chapters, would leave 8 in reserve. If almost half of those break, which isn't an insane thought...

With just a plain Silver Lance, Geoffrey is still beating Brave Axe Haar by 5 attack, so 10 attack on every opponent, not to mention he can use something like a Laguz Lance to easily ORKO laguz and still double. A forge is perfectly reasonable for Geoffrey, but he still beats Haar in Atk regardless of the weapon we use (unless you try to argue that he's using an Iron/Slim Lance, even you aren't that desperate).

I call dick on him killing cats and dragons, dragons of which Haar does more damage to thanks to his better strength. Cats also happen to be quite fast, of which most can't double, and Geoff caps speed at around 21 or 23 or something.

Fine then, we can forge for Haar too, and he has a better chance as he's around earlier. Besides, why forge Silver when you have the strength with a hand axe forge? So much more versatile, doesn't matter if you have the strength (of which Haar does), and Haar is most likely at the action first...

By your theory, Makalov can't keep up with Haar either since he has this amazing flight that lets him go to tons of magical places no one else can reach.

You're the one assuming he even needed it. Haar gives boosts they like, and boosts to much better characters, while Geoffery's boosts are practically next to meaningless, if even existent just because he's constantly out of his partner's range/sucks anyways. Haar gets and gives great boosts to those two, and gives him something over Geoff, a noticeable evade lead. Once again, you may thank WT control.

If you hype Haar's flight or 1.25 chapter advantage over Geoff doubling 75% more enemies one more time I'm going to cut myself.

Why not? Flight makes him much more unique, and he's still combat viable, for a longer amount of time no less. Geoff's mount actually proves a detriment for a chapter, and his existence benefits no one but himself.

[Vykan12]

Based on practical experience, I think you guys are overstating Neph's survival issues when under half hp.

A freshly promo'ed Neph has 33 hp/16 def/8 res/49 avo, not to mention a possible +2 def/res from the KW. So the issue is how long she can survive with ~15-16 hp.

A chp 17 steel lance!knight has 22 atk and 89 hit. Neph gets 3HKOed (4HKOed with the KW) at 32 hit. A steel lance!soldier has 20 atk and 94 hit. Neph gets 4HKOed (8HKOed with the KW) at 41 hit.

What’s more is these numbers all get relatively better for Neph as the game goes along. She has a possible Calill support that gives 5 avo per level. Then Neph has a 55 hp/35 def/25 res/135 avo (195 with KW) durability growth spread, which is well above the offensive gains that enemies are making, aside from the introduction of feral ones.

So long as Neph takes a vulnerary to keep her hp up to the 14-16 range (higher later on), she can last a very long time under half hp. Recall that she’s only getting attacked by what bypasses her low% chance of missing a crit, and she can be pretty effective at 3HKOing things even with a javelin (might need a forge).

Personally, I had a lot of trouble getting Neph to wrath hp even when I tried. Even so, I still think vantage + wrath easily >>> vantage + adept.

[grandjackal]

I had no problem with Lethe under Neph...

...But I went along with it because I'm a shameless catgirl fanboi and a whore

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Based on practical experience, I think you guys are overstating Neph's survival issues when under half hp.

A freshly promo'ed Neph has 33 hp/16 def/8 res/49 avo, not to mention a possible +2 def/res from the KW. So the issue is how long she can survive with ~15-16 hp.

A chp 17 steel lance!knight has 22 atk and 89 hit. Neph gets 3HKOed (4HKOed with the KW) at 32 hit. A steel lance!soldier has 20 atk and 94 hit. Neph gets 4HKOed (8HKOed with the KW) at 41 hit.

What’s more is these numbers all get relatively better for Neph as the game goes along. She has a possible Calill support that gives 5 avo per level. Then Neph has a 55 hp/35 def/25 res/135 avo (195 with KW) durability growth spread, which is well above the offensive gains that enemies are making, aside from the introduction of feral ones.

So long as Neph takes a vulnerary to keep her hp up to the 14-16 range (higher later on), she can last a very long time under half hp. Recall that she’s only getting attacked by what bypasses her low% chance of missing a crit, and she can be pretty effective at 3HKOing things even with a javelin (might need a forge).

Personally, I had a lot of trouble getting Neph to wrath hp even when I tried. Even so, I still think vantage + wrath easily >>> vantage + adept.

Thought so. Moving her above Zihark. Think she could move elsewhere?

[Vykan12]

Think she could move elsewhere?

Top of upper-mid is fine, though whether she is > Volke or not is a tricky subject. Perhaps it's time we took a detailed look at what Volke is netting the team.

[grandjackal]

I think she could be argued above Muarim due to his weird gauge, but otherwise below him for now seems fine.

Woops, those swordmasters are already above the hulk-tiger. Pardon moi.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

Woops, those swordmasters are already above the hulk-tiger. Pardon moi.

They are? Muarim should be somewhere in high. His jointime is more dominant than even Titania.

[grandjackal]

They are? Muarim should be somewhere in high. His jointime is more dominant than even Titania.

*a wave of stun passes by*

Er...Pardon, it might be that I haven't played the game in a while, but you'll have to run that by me. Uhhh...what?

[Vykan12]

You'll see what I mean if you compare base lvl Muarim to a 20/1 Kieran. He has a very dominant midgame.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You'll see what I mean if you compare base lvl Muarim to a 20/1 Kieran. He has a very dominant midgame.

What about his transformation process and all that?

[grandjackal]

What about his transformation process and all that?

Pretty much what I was gonna say, it's weird. It basically works half-way through the battle, which is an odd place to transform. The hard part is already over, but...Well like I said. Weird.

Well I went and checked, and he's statistically, practically the same as Keiran at 20/1...before transformation.

The answer to Vykan's question, I believe, is when are these people promoting, and how does base Muarim compare to them? I'd say Muarim joins with pretty damn asskick stats. He could demi-band and still put up a better fight than most of your guys, if not all of them.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

Demi-band, exactly. Lethe transforms immediately so she has less to gain from it in the long run, so only Mordy's suffering from Muarim taking the band, and he can smite while untransformed to make himself useful.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Hmm, wonder how he ended up below Zihark then... I'm guessing supports has something to do with it. Ok, how about Muarim above Neph and both of them above Volke? Though we'll need more input on how good Volke's utility is.

[grandjackal]

Hell, he's practically got Lethe's speed at equal levels, and better all around stats. He'd put the demi-band to better use, as speed is of no issue (55% growth!?). He could practically use it indefinitely.

As for Volke, I'd put up smart ass comments about how anyone could do Volke's job with keys, but keys are actually kinda hard to come by in this game...oddly enough.

You have to steal your physic staffs in this game, right? I dunno, that's pretty fucking huge, especially in the final battle.

Muarim's growths though...holy fuck.

145% HP, 70% Str (5% more than hard hitter Mordy), 70% Skill (I suppose he has crit, lol), 55% Speed (Fucking Stefan has this speed growth), 60% Def (for those of you at home, this is 20% more than our living tank Mordecai).

What, did they think they needed to compensate Thunder that badly in comparison to Water? Gave him a fucking Earth support on top of it.

Muarim is fucking broken. Good thing he joins a tad late.

Speaking of his growth, all Laguz averages in HP are off. They act as if their growths are 100%, when they have above 100%, so Muarim has a shitload more health than it claims.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

Hmm, wonder how he ended up below Zihark then... I'm guessing supports has something to do with it.

They support each other, so I don't see how Zihark having superior B option supports makes him better. In fact, Zihark's outgoing support benefits are pretty ineffective outside of Muarim. Brom has too much concrete durability to care about avo, and most people would argue Ilyana rarely faces any attacks due to backlining in most cases.

@Kuja: You may think Muarim's broke, but being stuck to a 9 Mt weapon the whole game eventually catches up to him. Still, he has high movement, he's invincible the entirety of the game and he's arguably top tier for half his playtime.

[-Cynthia-]

They support each other, so I don't see how Zihark having superior B option supports makes him better. In fact, Zihark's outgoing support benefits are pretty ineffective outside of Muarim. Brom has too much concrete durability to care about avo, and most people would argue Ilyana rarely faces any attacks due to backlining in most cases.

@Kuja: You may think Muarim's broke, but being stuck to a 9 Mt weapon the whole game eventually catches up to him. Still, he has high movement, he's invincible the entirety of the game and he's arguably top tier for half his playtime.

Zihark beats Muarim come lategame, since he gets Forged Silver whike Muarim still has Claw, but there's a long period of time where Muarim's the winner. Zihark is useful before Muarim joins though, so it's a tough comparison.

Zihark wins 11-15 for existing and being a positive. Muarim wins at least 16-19, but then it's questionable whether Zihark wins after that, since this is when Silver Swords become available and Zihark's supports have kicked in to offset the durability lead.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Zihark beats Muarim come lategame, since he gets Forged Silver whike Muarim still has Claw, but there's a long period of time where Muarim's the winner. Zihark is useful before Muarim joins though, so it's a tough comparison.

More inconsistency as Ike vs Tanith is pretty darn similar, the gap between their join time is larger and Tanith isn't so great against Ike at her join time like Muarim is against Zihark and yet she ended up above him.. WTF. Then there's also Geoff who's seriously overrated and from what I've seen, availability has been underrated for some.

Muarim above Nephenee and Ike above Tanith it is. Geoffrey to top of lower mid.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

Ike vs Tanith is an annoying comparison since half of it delves on the value of Ike's performance for the first half the game. I'll take a closer look at it after I finish up my syrene vs lyon debate with Mekkah.

[grandjackal]

Indeed.

Anyways, 2 thoughts with this in mind.

1. I think Devden and Tauroneo should switch places (he REALLY isn't around for long, the silver general, despite being a pretty cool guy.)

2. Do I REALLY have to explain why Lethe is better than Soren?

[-Cynthia-]

I think Soren might be a little high, there was a reason he was below Geoffrey.

First off, his earlygame is altogether bad. Nearly everything 2RKOS him and he's lucky to 2RKO back since he doesn't double much at all. He's also stuck with only a 40 use Wind tome for over 3.5 chapters, which means he's going to be stuck without a weapon for some period of time if used much. It's not pretty, to say the least. At the time of Illyana's joining they're pretty comparable, except she can use Elthunder and hasn't been a negative so far.

Things do get better for Soren as time goes on, but not all that much. He can get an Ike support, though by doing so he hurts Ike's other support options (Titania, Lethe, Ranulf, and Reyson all appreciate the durability boost). He can get Stefan as well, but the support is slow and doesn't give very good bonuses due to Stefan's affinity.

Soren does have good Magic and Speed growths, though this is somewhat dampened by his Str issues. Early in the game he can just forge a tome and be fine, but later in the game the A rank tomes are better than forges. Thus, Soren then has to choose between power and AS, and he cannot switch freely between the 3 types of magic like the other Sages can without losing AS/avoid. He never gains concrete durability,even compared to someone like Callil, which can spell trouble if Ike isn't in range or is supporting someone else. He can get staves I guess, which is something.

Overall, I would place Soren in Lower Mid, below Geoffrey and possibly Brom.

Tauroneo has a durability lead and Resolve over Devdan. It's not like Devdan's a superstar when Taur isn't around anyway.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How well are the others in the earlygame doing in terms of survivability? Also, Soren's been providing you with chip damage with is a good asset in the earlygame and since it's pretty difficult there and then there's healing once promoted while Geoffrey's got only 4 chapters of availability. I don't see Geoff going above Soren.

Also, the whole AS "issue" about Soren's already been discussed. While he may not be able to use the heavier tome, he's still capable of doubling and doubling will result in better damage output than using the heavier tomes since you know, enemies have shit RES?

While Geoffrey's awesome when he's in, he's only there 4 chapters, one where he's probably a detriment IIRC.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Tauroneo has a durability lead and Resolve over Devdan. It's not like Devdan's a superstar when Taur isn't around anyway.

Neither is Tauroneo, at least Devden has a way to become a generally usable character who isn't dependent on a skill to be good (even if it is innate). He's not even that durable a person. Gets worse with Devden's better movement and the fact he can make supports with other characters by the time the guy who looks like my dad shows up.

...Seriously, Tauroneo looks exactly like my dad.