FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

Can she use the demi band? Yes, of course she can. But there are two units, Mordecai and Muarim, who are much better than her. Lethe taking the demi band instead of one of them thus means lowering the team's overall efficiency.

That can be held against Muarim and Mordecai as well, so it’s a bit of a neutral point.

This isn't FE10, her untransformed is not as big a deal. Sure she can't counter, but it just gets her gauge built up faster so she has even less problems with it.

I re-iterate, whenever Lethe is untransformed (I’m guessing at least 1/3 of the time), Neph is competing with a 0 atk unit while they match in move, so in those cases, Neph is at a huge advantage.

um people i think it would be a good idea to temember on tiers that at the end of the game the chapters become longer and harder. which is what can make them more important.

They do become longer, but also arguably easier because of how much faster the team improves relative to the enemy, as well as established supports.

[Blacknight9]

true but against a poor team they are harder as the missions are diffrent, but easier like you said becasue your units being Gods

[Dat Nick]

That's why we construct a good team over a poor one.

[Blacknight9]

That's why we construct a good team over a poor one.

NOOOOOOO REALY i never knew, but some people like to make the game harder for more fun so the use the crappy units

[Dr. Tarrasque]

NOOOOOOO REALY i never knew, but some people like to make the game harder for more fun so the use the crappy units

Such player preferences aren't factored. It's all about how the units compare in overall usefulness and if you are using weak units, the earlygame is still harder anyway since you're more prepared for the lategame.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

On a practical level, purposely making the game harder just to have more fun is moronic. How can you rank characters based on how "fun" they make the game?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On a practical level, purposely making the game harder just to have more fun is moronic. How can you rank characters based on how "fun" they make the game?

Precisely. You can't. A good example of this is Est in FESD H5 (or Wendy in FE6), you'd have to be an Est fanboy or a masochist to use her in H5 and rank her as high as the fanboys do.

Oh come on. The bulk of Soren’s durability problems are in earlygame, he can certainly have an enemy phase later on.

Let’s look at a 20/5 Soren (A Ike, B Stefan, elwind): 32 hp, 27 atk, 19 AS, 7 def, 22 res, 77 avo

Let’s say this happens around where Calill joins (maybe later for B Stefan but wtv). First off, 27 atk targeting res/19 AS is rape. He has enough att to ORKO any unpromoted enemy (they’re still frequent at this point), most promoteds (sometimes requires tome switching) and his doubling is so good he can nab lv 17 myrmidons.

That shouldn’t come off as any real surprise, so let’s look at Soren’s durability now. The thing is, even though Soren has fairly sub-par concrete durability, he still has a ton of avo to make up for it. For instance, a lvl 5 steel lance!paladin has 95 hit, so Soren’s only facing 7 true hit. So even though that enemy 2HKOes him, it’s only a 0.4% chance of death. Sure, Soren is no Jill but the point is he does have an enemy phase, especially when you consider how perma 1-2 range will discourage some enemies from attacking him.

... I better look for possible exaggerations before making changes. So... what's left for Geoff > Soren?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Demi-Band point is that Lethe starts off transformed. When she untransforms, or gets close to it, she can just equip it, giving her sort of an uber mode before having to slap on the bracelet. Unlike the other two, she doesn't have to equip it for immediate action.

Good point about the untransformed thing, but I just wanted to point it out. This was to explain why Lethe's perfectly fine for upper mid, not above Neph. I know for a fact Lethe can't compete with the blue bomber.

As for what's left between Geoff and Soren is that Soren can heal, whereas Geoff can't. Healing is huge, and Soren could have Physic rank by now, considering how easy it is to get rank for it.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

... I better look for possible exaggerations before making changes.

I might have inflated Soren's level a bit, but otherwise it should be accurate. There's still things Soren never wants to face such as tigers and cats, but that's still nowhere near being sniper level on enemy phase.

Oh and since we are being so hard on Soren's earlygame, now would be a good time for Calill > Soren.

20/5 Soren (A Ike, B Stefan, elwind): 32 hp, 27 atk, 19 AS, 7 def, 22 res, 77 avo

Base Calill (elthunder): 32 hp, 26 atk, 18 AS, 8 def, 17 res, 52 avo

Note: Both are using the best tomes that don't weigh them down.

Sure, Soren is a slight bit better on offence (1 atk and 1 AS) and much better in durability (25 avo >>> 1 def) but you also get Calill for free. Moreover, Calill wins durability growths (5% hp, 35% def, 10% avo) and also cuts heavily into Soren's avo lead with A Neph (+15 avo). It's a tough call since we also have to consider Soren has staves, but Calill has some minor advantages of her own such as high weapon rank (can use a lot of siege tomes off the bat) and giving outgoing support bonuses someone wants (Ike has other options, and Stefan's bonuses are very minor).

Edited June 13, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

Btw, at lvl 12 his str rounds up to 1, allowing him to use Wind with no AS loss.

I just have to address this since I hate faulty math in these debates.

You cannot just ceiling numbers once they exceed .5 - especially with growths as low as Soren's strength. It's actually not until level 15 when Soren has a greater than 50% chance to have at least 1 strength (.95^14 = .4877). Even at 20/1 after 19 level ups, Soren has a 62% chance to have at least 3 strength (1 - .95^19 = .6226).

Of course, with a strength boosting band, Soren only has to wait to level 8 for a greater than 50% chance of at least 1 strength, and at 20/1 he'll have an 86% chance for at least 3 strength.

What this means is that there is a significant chance that Soren will not make up for that 1 AS loss in his first 14 or so levels of existence. Does that 1 AS matter? Well, no...

I'm also going to point out that in the first few chapters Soren is easily your second-best tool against armors (under Titania) because Ike, Mia, and Boyd are all forced to attack at 1 range and eat a counter (not to mention the giant AS loss from equipping Armorslayer and Hammer) for some still rather shitty damage because effective damage is only 2x.

And, like I said in the previous topic, Soren also has that one chapter against the ravens where he can attack them with a highly accurate, effective Elwind whereas most of the army will either encounter issues hitting or dealing damage.

Sure, Soren's earlygame sucks, but he does fill a specific niche where he's useful to have around.

Edited June 13, 2009 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

(Ike has other options, and Stefan's bonuses are very minor).

I remember some counter arguments for supports being the MOV between the supporters. Oscar and Titania do have a larger MOV gap than Soren and Ike so wouldn't Soren support be easier on him? Titania and Oscar do have other options which don't have as much trouble keeping up with them.

[Vykan12]

I remember some counter arguments for supports being the MOV between the supporters. Oscar and Titania do have a larger MOV gap than Soren and Ike so wouldn't Soren support be easier on him? Titania and Oscar do have other options which don't have as much trouble keeping up with them.

The point was Ike can live without a Soren support easier than Neph can live without a Calill one, so Calill wins outgoing support benefits.

[Tino]

Demi-Band point is that Lethe starts off transformed. When she untransforms, or gets close to it, she can just equip it, giving her sort of an uber mode before having to slap on the bracelet. Unlike the other two, she doesn't have to equip it for immediate action.

To simply keep a long story short since I've already covered it earlier, it means she still deprives better units of it, whether she uses it halfway through the chapter or at the start of it.

She'll have her full transformation bonuses for a while, but that doesn't last forever.

[-Cynthia-]

The point was Ike can live without a Soren support easier than Neph can live without a Calill one, so Calill wins outgoing support benefits.

Indeed.

They only person on Titania's support list that keeps up with her better than Ike is Mist, and that's only post promotion. There's actually 1 Mov gap most of the time between Ike and Soren anyway. Regardless, PoR is the game where Mov difference between supports means the least, since you don't need to be next to each other to build supports.

Callil easily gets Nephenee, since her only other non-Brom support option is Devdan, who is average at best and gives off worse benefits. She gets Geoffrey by default since he only has 2 options total and one is Elincia, who isn't that good and has a bad affinity. If Tormod is being fielded, he wants Callil since it gives the best bonuses and his other options are fairly poor (lots of maps where Sothe isn't fielded, Reyson is entirely one sided and adds no durability, Devdan has a great chance not to be fielded and gives no durability boost).

Compare this to Soren's support list. Ike is a hgihly contested character, so by supporting him Soren denies quite a few other characters of a support they want. There's Stefan, but this support is slow and the bonuses aren't very good. I would say Callil wins supports by a fair margin, even though Soren's bonuses start earlier.

Also, let's not overrate Soren's staff utility. He doesn't get it until Ch17 ish, and there's already Rhys and Mist who outperforms Soren due to higher Mov/Canto post promotion. We probably don't need more than one staff user anyway. This by the way, is the only thing seperating him from Geoffrey, who's "just another combat unit".

In regards to Elwind, it's unavailable until Ch9 and it slows him down by 2 AS anyway. If we plow Soren with some BEXP his AS will get better, but likely not enough to reliably double(unless it's a lot of BEXP) with Thunder/Fire (and his offense is even worse if we just use Wind).

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Also, let's not overrate Soren's staff utility. He doesn't get it until Ch17 ish, and there's already Rhys and Mist who outperforms Soren due to higher Mov/Canto post promotion. We probably don't need more than one staff user anyway.

Also, let's not overrate Geoffrey's overall usefulness.

@Bold: Earlier promotion would change that I guess... and Rhys has superior staff rank over Soren, not MOV >_>. Soren would be somewhat able to replace Rhys with Arms Scrolls while giving those to Mist is just for... Sonic Sword >_> and with that you would get Combat, healing and not having to deal with Rhy's shit durability which you pointed out >_>.

@Italic: We probably don't need Geoffrey either and Elincia did go above Ena due to her healing. Healing is always welcomed, Combat is too but holy fuck there's already so much of it.

In regards to Elwind, it's unavailable Ch10 and it slows him down by 2 AS anyway. If we plow Soren with some BEXP his AS will get better, but likely not enough to reliably double(unless it's a lot of BEXP) with Thunder/Fire (and his offense is even worse if we just use Wind).

Why are you so hellbent on having him use Fire and Thunder? If he's doubling with Wind and not with Fire/Thunder, you're going to use Wind. If he's not doubling with Wind and it's not a flying unit, you're going to use Thunder. His offense is only worse with Wind IF HE'S NOT DOUBLING WITH WIND OR IF HE'S DOUBLING WITH THUNDER/FIRE.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

@Bold: Earlier promotion would change that I guess... and Rhys has superior staff rank over Soren, not MOV >_>. Soren would be somewhat able to replace Rhys with Arms Scrolls while giving those to Mist is just for... Sonic Sword >_> and with that you would get Combat, healing and not having to deal with Rhy's shit durability which you pointed out >_>.

The Mov was obviously referring to Mist. You can't use Arms Scrolls to gain staff levels either. At a certain point staff utility is no longer valuable, depending upon how many people get seriously injured in a round.

@Italic: We probably don't need Geoffrey either and Elincia did go above Ena due to her healing. Healing is always welcomed, Combat is too but holy fuck there's already so much of it.

There isn't a supreme shortage of staff users either, and if you're suggesting that combat isn't useful because there's so much of it we might as well bump up everyone capable of using staves up a tier. There's also the fact that Mist/Elincia/Tormod do it better because of higher Mov, Rhys does due to higher staff levels, and Illyana can use staves too. Staff usage is an advantage for Soren, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

I mention Soren using Fire and Thunder, because he may want to use Fire to do effective damage against laguz. If he's using Wind,a level 7 or below Soren has less Atk than a base level Rolf.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The Mov was obviously referring to Mist. You can't use Arms Scrolls to gain staff levels either. At a certain point staff utility is no longer valuable, depending upon how many people get seriously injured in a round.

Well shit. If staff utility is ever "no longer valuable" then what the hell is Mist doing so damn high?

There isn't a supreme shortage of staff users either, and if you're suggesting that combat isn't useful because there's so much of it we might as well bump up everyone capable of using staves up a tier. There's also the fact that Mist/Elincia/Tormod do it better because of higher Mov, Rhys does due to higer staff levels, and Illyana can use staves too. Staff usage is an advantage for Soren, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

If it were, I'd be moving Rhys up. Also, how do you even consider that I would suggest that combat isn't useful...

Healing is always welcomed, Combat is too but holy fuck there's already so much of it.

The point is that in addition to combat, Soren also has staff utility which not as many people have as opposed to combat -__-. Ilyana isn't always used and you've got to be proceeding extremely slow or overusing Titania to stress the whole "you only need 1 healer" point.

I mention Soren using Fire and Thunder, because he may want to use Fire to do effective damage against laguz. If he's using Wind,a level 7 or below Soren has less Atk than a base level Rolf.

@Bold: Let's neglect the fact that Soren targets RES, Rolf targets DEF, Soren can double and has Adept. I've been ignoring your arguments that bring up for the same reason I ignored Jackal's (Kuja) arguments of Ilyana > Soren: Mercy. Of course if you insist, I'll counter each one.

As for the whole using fire on Laguz for effective damage... that's probably common sense, if the damage from Fire surpasses the damage from Wind in those instances then Of. Course. You. Are. Going. To. Use. It.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Well shit. If staff utility is ever "no longer valuable" then what the hell is Mist doing so damn high?

At the point Soren gets staves, there's at least two other characters that can use them. Mist has several advanatges over Soren, namely horse and supports. I'm not really the person to be defending Mist though, since I tried to argue her down in the last tier thread.

The point is that in addition to combat, Soren also has staff utility which not as many people have as opposed to combat -__-. Ilyana isn't always used and you've got to be proceeding extremely slow or overusing Titania to stress the whole "you only need 1 healer" point.

But Soren doesn't have healing for the early chapters or likely the midgame chapters. He can only heal later in the game, where your PC's have much higher avoid rates and he has competition from several other healers.

@Bold: Let's neglect the fact that Soren targets RES, Rolf targets DEF, Soren can double and has Adept. I've been ignoring your arguments for the same reason I ignored Jackal's (Kuja) arguments of Ilyana > Soren: They're weak.

Soren has like an 11% chance to activate Adept at this point. Also, if his offense is even comparable to the worst character in the game(who's been using no resources mind you), that's saying something. The point is that Soren would be able to utilize the offensive boost that Thunder provides if he had more Str, but he can't so he's stuck with Wind. His offense with either tome is poor, so it goes back to "relies on forges".

As for the whole using fire on Laguz for effective damage... that's probably common sense, if the damage from Fire surpasses the damage from Wind in those instances then Of. Course. You. Are. Going. To. Use. It.

You asked why I keep referring to Soren using Fire. I gave a reason why he would.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

At the point Soren gets staves, there's at least two other characters that can use them. Mist has several advanatges over Soren, namely horse and supports. I'm not really the person to be defending Mist though, since I tried to argue her down in the last tier thread.

I'm aware that there's Rhys and Mist as healers at that point but if what you say about "you only need 1 healer", then it wouldn't kill you to ditch Rhys once Soren reaches promotion since that's all Rhys is good for and Mist has nice staff rank. Thus, Soren's ability to use staves isn't as minuscule as you make it seem and again, he can use staves earlier if you promote him earlier at the cost of course of some lategame combat potential but this earlier promotion also fixes his so called AS issue with Thunder and Fire no?

Soren has like an 11% chance to activate Adept at this point. Also, if his offense is even comparable to the worst character in the game(who's been using no resources mind you), that's saying something. The point is that Soren would be able to utilize the offensive boost that Thunder provides if he had more Str, but he can't so he's stuck with Wind. His offense with either tome is poor, so it goes back to "relies on forges".

Yes, that his earlygame sucks which has already been acknowledged and has been what most of your arguments against Soren > Geoff are about. I kept Geoffrey above Soren waiting for responses but so far I'm leaning towards undoing that since I'm just seeing the same arguments from those against Soren while others have provided good counter arguments.

You asked why I keep referring to Soren using Fire. I gave a reason why he would.

Good reason indeed... bit of a neutral point though since it's always been: If he's doubling with Wind and not with Thunder/Fire, you're going to use Wind.

To rephrase: He's using whichever tome leads to the superior damage output.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

I'm aware that there's Rhys and Mist as healers at that point but if what you say about "you only need 1 healer", then it wouldn't kill you to ditch Rhys once Soren reaches promotion since that's all Rhys is good for and Mist has nice staff rank. Thus, Soren's ability to use staves isn't as minuscule as you make it seem and again, he can use staves earlier if you promote him earlier at the cost of course of some lategame combat potential but this earlier promotion also fixes his so called AS issue with Thunder and Fire no?

This essentially makes him midgame better, but his lategame worse, so it pretty much balances itself out. Again, you already have 2-4 staff users, so there's no real need for another one.

Yes, that his earlygame sucks which has already been acknowledged and has been what most of your arguments against Soren > Geoff are about. I kept Geoffrey above Soren waiting for responses but so far I'm leaning towards undoing that since I'm just seeing the same arguments from those against Soren while others have provided good counter arguments.

Finally, you admit Soren's earlygame sucks. Let's look at a chart for comparison:

Soren

Earlygame: Below Average

Midgame: Above Average

Lategame: Average(worse than Geoffrey at any rate)

Geoffrey

Earlygame: Average

Midgame: Average

Lategame: Above Average

-1+1+0 for Soren = 0

0+0+1 for Geoffrey= 1

Also, you're the only one really making the arguments for Soren(Kuja briefy mentioned the phrase staff utility). To move Soren up simply because you seem to think so would be irreposnsible.

Good reason indeed... bit of a neutral point though since it's always been: If he's doubling with Wind and not with Thunder/Fire, you're going to use Wind.

To rephrase: He's using whichever tome leads to the superior damage output.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he's damage output is good,while doubling with Wind, which is the entire point you seem to miss.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

...

This is going in circles and too much is being repeated and missed so clearly, I have a bad time getting my points across so I'll just wait for some1 else to try. Just one last thing.

Also, you're the only one really making the arguments for Soren(Kuja briefy mentioned the phrase staff utility). To move Soren up simply because you seem to think so would be irreposnsible.

Vykan gave a good counter argument with statistics that showed that you and Kirsche's point about Soren having terrible durability was exaggerated and mostly just true in the earlygame which Has. Been. Acknowledged. Several. Times. Dondon brought up a good point about the Knights in the early game which counters your "Soren adds nothing t efficiency in the earlygame", this one didn't even need statistics because it's obviously while most of your points are just statements being thrown without evidence and even though all this is much more convincing than you and Kirsche, I still haven't moved Soren above Geoffrey.

Simply put, I've been more courteous towards those against Soren (you and Kirsche) than I have been to myself and those who have shown your exaggerations (Kuja, Dondon and Vykan). So this begs the question: What the fuck?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

I never argued his mid/lategame durability was bad, merely dependent on A Ike, which is an issue. Also, my points and kirsche's are backed up by evidence-- if you can't find them that's likely due to your bias or lack of reading comprehension.

[Dat Nick]

...Please let's try to focus on the topic at hand.

I'll ask this again. We should evaluate just when Soren stops sucking and when he starts being good to evaluate how much of a determent he is, Pre-Geoffrey. I don't recall that being done.

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Mekkah]

Well, he's obviously always going to get his ass kicked by a regular team of great units like Boyd/Oscar/Kieran/Titania etc, so he looks like a detriment there. You'd have to compare him to a unit that's exactly average, or something. Or go and make chapter-by-chapter tier lists.

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, here's a shot:

Soren is underperforming compared to most of the team until at least Chapter 10, I doubt anyone wants to dispute this. He's worse than Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Ike, Shinon, Gatrie, Lethe and Mordecai. Rhys, Mist, and Volke have utility over him. he's comparable to Mia and Marcia and only marginally better than Rolf.

Chapter 11 brings Brom, Kieran, Nephenee and Zihark. Kieran and Zihark beat him by quite a bit. Brom's offense isn't as good as Soren's, but the durability lead is more than substantial. he's about equal to Nephenee. The characters listed before are probably still beating him handily, except he maybe outclasses Mia now.

Chapter 12 is the ravens, Wind Magic is effective against ravens, so Soren is about average here, not doubling anything and still being 2RKOd easily.

13 brings Gatrie and Astrid. Astrid is worse than Soren, Gatrie is a worse offense/better durability story. Soren is starting to become passable here, 14 is basically the same, he should be better than base Makalov,although by now he's worse than Nephenee/Marcia.

15 He's above average, due to higher Mov than most and being able to flame up laguz.

16/17 He's worse than Muarim/Stefan, better than Tormod and probably Devdan. he should promote around now (assuming we didn't Seal him earlier). He's pretty much average now, maybe a little above.

18-25 A few characters come around and outclass Soren (Tanith, possibly Haar), but he still manages to maintain above averageness.

26+ Since we're comparing him to Geoffrey, he loses here. Geoffrey has Canto, 3 more Mov,and a big durability lead, with similar offense.

So I would say Soren's below average from Chapter 4 to Chapter 14(9 chapters). He's slightly above average from Chapter 8, 13, 15 to 25(12 chapters), then loses the last 4 chapters to Geoffrey. This is a very basic analysis, I could probably go into more direct character comparisons, but didn't want to be tl;dr.

Edit: I'll give him credit for 8 and 13

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-