FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

Aren't we picky, they're the same thing :/

By the way, if it's raping his AS to the point where he gets doubled, he can just switch to normal Light. And he's still beating Ilyana in ATK.

Rhys is 15/1 when Ilyana is 10/1 because...?

Because Barrier is basically free EXP, as well as him having access to BEXP in C8, as well as staves in general bringing in a nice chunk of EXP.

Edited June 14, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Aren't we picky, they're the same thing :/

By the way, if it's raping his AS to the point where he gets doubled, he can just switch to normal Light. And he's still beating Ilyana in ATK.

Because Barrier is basically free EXP, as well as him having access to BEXP in C8, as well as staves in general bringing in a nice chunk of EXP.

You're giving him too much BEXP if he's 15/1 at that point. Also, it's not like Light doesn't weight him down either. 1.7 STR and 11.6 SPD isn't exactly great with a 4 WT tome as it would result in 8.6 or 9.6 AS. While Ilyana has 12.2 with regular Thunder.

[Zkirsche]

Rhys is 15/1 when Ilyana is 10/1 because...?

If we were to promote these units at chapter 11, Rhys would've gained 11 levels in 8 chapters (1.375 levels per chapter). To get to Level 10, Ilyana gains 4 levels in 2 chapters (She doesn't really do much in chapter 8, so I don't count it). That's 2 levels per chapter. Most of this comes from bexp thanks to both having access to the wonderful supply of bexp from chapters P-7 and Chapter 10.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wait, 11 levels in 8 Chapters? How's he getting much Heal EXP in the earlygame when we're clearing some of those rather fast? (6 turns or something like that). Looks more like a 2-3 level lead for Rhys.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

He still retains an atk lead.

[Tino]

Assuming Sirius's suggested 2 lvl lead for Rhys:

12/1 Rhys: 20-22 atk, 7-5 spd (Light and Shine respectively, w/ 1 str/18 mag/10 spd)

10/1 Ilyana: 15-18 atk, 12-10 spd (Thunder and Elthunder respectively, w/ 4 str/11 mag/12 spd)

If Rhys is 13/1, he gains 2 more spd (so 9-7 spd) but still doubles much less than Ilyana does. Also, I wouldn't be much surprised if 5-7 spd actually results in getting doubled rather than doubling.

I'd say actually doubling some things > a fairly sizeable atk lead.

[grandjackal]

That, and here's a thought. Out of all the bands, some would suggest a speed boosting band, but the thing is her speed gets good enough anyways really. It's the fact tomes still weigh her down even with her strength, so how about she's better off with the Knight band? Like make her a tougher mage, and she gains meta-speed through gaining strength for her heavier lightning tomes?

I mean, no mage really gets as much use out of it. Tormod's growths are spectacular as is, Calill's pre-packaged, Soren's more an avoid monster later and could make do with any general strength boosting band, and Rhys is so weak and slow that no band is saving him from being doubled, so he'd prefer a magic boosting band. But I'm gonna assume bands aren't assumed...

Also...dammit, forgot what I was gonna contest. Oh ya.

1. Geoff is STILL in upper mid, despite the fact he's comparable to Haar. Will you drop him already? At least drop him to the top of lower mid, a character with only 5 chapters does not upper mid get you. It's rediculous.

2. Speaking of mages, anyone think Tormod could rise to lower mid with the new thought? Yeah he joins late, but he levels up rather quickly thanks to his low joining level, and he does pay off for it with his fantastic growths and the ever awesome Celerity. Unlike the other mages, he has more healing range due to it, and also widens his combat range. He has a significant killzone.

Support-wise, he's got lower mid guys anyways, and they both give him full attack, from our rising black star Devdan and lady Calill. He has a bit of a movement difference with Calill though, but he can keep up with Devdan.

Only thing I see getting in hte way is we do have to baby him a bit, but perhaps an early promotion could help him?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Kuja

[Zkirsche]

The knight ward is for pallys, Halbs, knights, generals, soldiers and i think Ike. Sages can't use it.

[grandjackal]

The knight ward is for pallys, Halbs, knights, generals, soldiers and i think Ike. Sages can't use it.

Knight BAND, not ward.

Also to repeat.

1. Geoff is STILL in upper mid, despite the fact he's comparable to Haar. Will you drop him already? At least drop him to the top of lower mid, a character with only 5 chapters does not upper mid get you. It's rediculous.

2. Speaking of mages, anyone think Tormod could rise to lower mid with the new thought? Yeah he joins late, but he levels up rather quickly thanks to his low joining level, and he does pay off for it with his fantastic growths and the ever awesome Celerity. Unlike the other mages, he has more healing range due to it, and also widens his combat range. He has a significant killzone.

Support-wise, he's got lower mid guys anyways, and they both give him full attack, from our rising black star Devdan and lady Calill. He has a bit of a movement difference with Calill though, but he can keep up with Devdan.

Only thing I see getting in hte way is we do have to baby him a bit, but perhaps an early promotion could help him?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Kuja

[Zkirsche]

Knight BAND, not ward.

Still, if you plan on promoting her at level 10 for healing staves, she only gains 1.15 Str and def (AT most), not much of a difference durably, and the str is likely to be superluous anyway.

1. Geoff is STILL in upper mid, despite the fact he's comparable to Haar. Will you drop him already? At least drop him to the top of lower mid, a character with only 5 chapters does not upper mid get you. It's rediculous.

Tino explained well enougth how Geoff is a tier ahead offensively, yet is still fine durably.

2. Speaking of mages, anyone think Tormod could rise to lower mid with the new thought? Yeah he joins late, but he levels up rather quickly thanks to his low joining level, and he does pay off for it with his fantastic growths and the ever awesome Celerity. Unlike the other mages, he has more healing range due to it, and also widens his combat range. He has a significant killzone.

I thought about this too, it makes him arguably the best endgame sage due to being able to outrun enemies and keep up with teh front lines.

And as you said, early promotion helps and since he's underleveled he gains levels uber-fast.

[grandjackal]

Still, if you plan on promoting her at level 10 for healing staves, she only gains 1.15 Str and def (AT most), not much of a difference durably, and the str is likely to be superluous anyway.

Well I suppose it ain't much worth with that considered...

Tino explained well enougth how Geoff is a tier ahead offensively, yet is still fine durably.

I showed that Haar's utility is not to be ignored as a pre-packaged stat flier either, should he rise? No, because he joins late, because being in upper mid with that few number of chapters is rediculous. Was Brom's durability and supports completely nullified by Geoff's existence?

I thought about this too, it makes him arguably the best endgame sage due to being able to outrun enemies and keep up with teh front lines.

And as you said, early promotion helps and since he's underleveled he gains levels uber-fast.

How high would you figure he might rise? Just to the bottom of lower mid?

[-Cynthia-]

I don't mind Devdan over Ranulf, and don't know about Gatrie(depends on weight of earlygame) but I'm mostly argiung he's not >Haar.

Also, I don’t see who would actually gain more from the KW than Devdan. For Astrid, BEXP works in tandem with paragon, so BEXPing her to lv 11 or higher is actually pretty reasonable. That would already give her 15 AS, and she gains 0.5 every level-up, something that occurs very frequently due to still being under-levelled + paragon.

Makalov is pretty much the same deal, though to a lesser extent (he’s not as efficient with BEXP). Then again, it only takes Makalov 5 levels with the KW to have 15 AS, which soon jumps past 17 once promotion is factored in.

Sure there’s Gatrie and Brom, but they’re not likely fielded, and the remaining candidates (Oscar, Titania, Nephenee) have stellar AS, so the KW is only really boosting their avo until they hit their cap.

These are still several characters he's taking it away from.

If that’s an issue, just field him later, such as in 17.3. The other units in lower-mid suffer from this same problem anyway, so it’s a neutral point.

If Devdan isn't being fielded when they aren't around, he isn't being a positive. He's also going to perform even more unfavorably in comparison to someone like Haar, due to not having as many levels.

Both Brom and Calill need to be supporting Neph for Devdan not to help her. It’s pretty questionable that two mid-ish units will be in play consecutively, let alone both taking her (Brom has Boyd and Zihark, after all, and those 2 characters really want Brom’s support).

Possibly, although if you're going that route there's the issue of Nephenee not being in play either.

That’s assuming Devdan doesn’t get any KW access at all. Even if Devdan had major competition for it, he’s still at least getting partial bonuses from it, and gaining a point of spd every 3 levels is a very considerable boost.

True, but a 20/14 Devdan is also pretty high for Haar's jointime. Then there's the fact that Haar can overcome his doubling woes via Brave Axe, and unlike the Geoffrey comparison, Haar has an Atk lead over Devdan.

A --/10 Devdan with KW access for every level only has a 2 AS lead over base Haar, with access every other level it's a tie, with less than that Haar is faster. Haar has 3 more Atk even with B Neph factored in, 6 more HP and Def, Mov, canto, flight, pretty crushing leads.

So apparently speedwings are in a low enough demand that we can put one onto Ilyana, but not even mention it when considering Devdan? A bit of a double standard methinks.

dondon said that there was no way to fix Illyana's speed, which is false. I'm not saying Illyana is entitled to these resources, just that they exist.

I think that this early promotion is becoming overrated very quickly. Note that the Exp gain post promotion is much less than pre-promotion, this can be somewhat fixed through staves, but not that much. Also, every unit in the game gets short term benefits from sealing early, not just mages. Soren and Illyana arguably get more, but there's still an opportunity cost involved, Master Seals are a limited resource. Also, is staff utility really that good? Teams don't gain much beyond 2 staff users and you have 2 of them before Soren/Illyana promote already. It helps Tormod less, since Tormod should promote soon after joining anyway, or else he's not going to be good enough to catch up.

Also at Mist using the Runesword, that's a no no. Runesword has 17 Wt, Mist has like 9 Str at the time.

Kuja, you seem to ignore the fact that Geoffrey doubles a significant number of opponents that Haar doesn't and they have equal Atk and durability, it's a big lead that can't be ignored. If we overlook AS while tiering we might as well move Gatrie to Top.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

As for Tormod with the new method for mages used...Who here thinks he could easily slip by Tauroneo, Gatrie, possibly even Ranulf?

For lulz effect, he and Muarim have a bond support for teh critz. 10% increase, which is pretty nuts considering Muarim has a 70% growth.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

This topic has been moving way too goddamn fast. Any way someone could give me a quick summary of what's been happening recently?

[Zkirsche]

These are still several characters he's taking it away from.

Not to mention they do benefit from the def and res boosts. Makalov and Astrid especially, and i doubt I'll need statistics to prove that.

True, but a 20/14 Devdan is also pretty high for Haar's jointime. Then there's the fact that Haar can overcome his doubling woes via Brave Axe, and unlike the Geoffrey comparison, Haar has an Atk lead over Devdan.

I agree with this, Haar's problems are easily fixed through a simple brave weapon - and there are two of them. no other unit benefits as much from them as Haar does as they're problems can usually be solved through a simple forge.

@ Red fox: Devdan was proved of worth through a comparison between Him and a level 18/0 Oscar, which showe them to be quite close statistically:

Devdan lv --/4 (steel lance): 36 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 11 def, 10 res, 42 avo

Oscar lv 18/0: 34 hp, 23 atk, 14 AS, 13 def, 9 res, 38 avo

I'd like to point out that this is without Oscar's 'A' with Ike and 'B' with Kieran. And whilst Vykan did mention this, you shouldn't just skip over it and conclude that they're comparable.

Soren and Ilyana's ability to promote early and the ability to use tomes was deemed superier than the combat utility of those beneath them.

Lethe was moved bellow nephenee after her transformation gauge was determined a big enougth problem to do so.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Tino]

Not to mention they do benefit from the def and res boosts. Makalov and Astrid especially, and i doubt I'll need statistics to prove that.

loltrade

I agree with this, Haar's problems are easily fixed through a simple brave weapon - and there are two of them. no other unit benefits as much from them as Haar does as they're problems can usually be solved through a simple forge.

Boyd may have some doubling issues, so he wouldn't mind some brave axe uses. The lance has plenty of people who want it, including Geoffrey himself. But let's not forget Brom, Gatrie and Devdan, or how about Tauroneo?

And even if he would get both brave weapons fully, you still can't shove his doubling issues off by saying 'lolbrave'. As soon as the brave weapons are broken, the doubling issues will be there again.

I'd like to point out that this is without Oscar's 'A' with Ike and 'B' with Kieran. And whilst Vykan did mention this, you shouldn't just skip over it and conclude that they're comparable.

Interesting. I'll just quote myself from something I posted in the tier topic on gfaqs a couple of minutes ago:

The point wasn't revolving around Oscar, it was revolving around how Devdan compares to a great unit. Unsupported, Oscar is still a great unit. And since Devdan is rather comparable to unsupported Oscar, it's fair to assume Devdan is a rather great unit, too.

[Zkirsche]

loltrade

Loltheywanttouseitallthetime.

Which is basically saying: "they want to use it all the time."

Boyd may have some doubling issues, so he wouldn't mind some brave axe uses. The lance has plenty of people who want it, including Geoffrey himself. But let's not forget Brom, Gatrie and Devdan, or how about Tauroneo?

Then we should've given the knight ward to fix their base so they wouldn't even have doubling issues. They're around long enougth. Oh wait, they're not likely to be fielded. Besides, if Devdan needs them as well he is in teh same position as Haar, except haar can use 2 brave weapons, not just one.

Contradiction fltl.

And even if he would get both brave weapons fully, you still can't shove his doubling issues off by saying 'lolbrave'. As soon as the brave weapons are broken, the doubling issues will be there again.

True enougth.

That still leaves a period where he wtfrapes Devdan.

Interesting. I'll just quote myself from something I posted in the tier topic on gfaqs a couple of minutes ago:

The point wasn't revolving around Oscar, it was revolving around how Devdan compares to a great unit. Unsupported, Oscar is still a great unit. And since Devdan is rather comparable to unsupported Oscar, it's fair to assume Devdan is a rather great unit, too.

Fair enougth.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[dondon151]

This topic has been moving way too goddamn fast. Any way someone could give me a quick summary of what's been happening recently?

Haar vs. Geoffrey, Soren vs. Ilyana vs. Rhys (the benefits of early promotion), Devdan vs. the world

Basically Soren and Ilyana might move above Rhys if they promote early and get staves and Devdan should move up.

By the way I really don't think Soren and Ilyana should move above Rhys even with early promotion because there's like 8 chapters where Rhys has a monopoly on staves, and then after that using more than 2 of them (let's not forget Mist) is rather redundant.

[-Cynthia-]

loltrade

It kind of hurts team efficiency to require units to be adjacent to each other at all times, especially since Makalov and Astrid have more Mov than Danved(and Brom and Gatrie have less). Plus, it still doesn't stop the point that they can't have it when Danved has it and vice versa

Boyd may have some doubling issues, so he wouldn't mind some brave axe uses. The lance has plenty of people who want it, including Geoffrey himself. But let's not forget Brom, Gatrie and Devdan, or how about Tauroneo?

And even if he would get both brave weapons fully, you still can't shove his doubling issues off by saying 'lolbrave'. As soon as the brave weapons are broken, the doubling issues will be there again.

Hammerne(what else do you want to use it on?). Geoffrey doesn't really need the Brave Lance,as he doubles anyway, though I guess anyone can quadruple with these weapons.

Also if the Generals are being fielded, they'll want the KW. Devdan is more KW dependent than Haar is Brave Lance dependent, especially since Haar can use the Brave Axe almost no one wants.

Interesting. I'll just quote myself from something I posted in the tier topic on gfaqs a couple of minutes ago:

The point wasn't revolving around Oscar, it was revolving around how Devdan compares to a great unit. Unsupported, Oscar is still a great unit. And since Devdan is rather comparable to unsupported Oscar, it's fair to assume Devdan is a rather great unit, too.

That was also an unpromoted Oscar, and promoted Oscar at Devdan's join time is very reasonable. Post promotion, Oscar's durabiltiy leads over Devdan are even higher

kirsche beat me to the punch, oh well

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

That was also an unpromoted Oscar, and promoted Oscar at Devdan's join time is very reasonable. Post promotion, Oscar's durabiltiy leads over Devdan are even higher

I second this, to get to 20/1, Oscar would've had to get 18 levels in 14 chapters, which results in 9 levels every 7 chapters. Not hard to get.

kirsche beat me to the punch, oh well

You got ninja'd :P.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Tino]

Then we should've given the knight ward to fix their base so they wouldn't even have doubling issues. They're around long enougth. Oh wait, they're not likely to be fielded.

The KW doesn't fix their spd issues at all, and just because they're not likely to be fielded doesn't mean they're never played.

Gatrie probably has gained three or four levels without the KW. Brom two or three, probably.

--/4 Devdan: 13 spd

15/0 Brom: 10 spd

15/0 Gatrie: 8 spd

--/18 Devdan: 22 spd

20/10 Brom: 20 spd

20/10 Gatrie: 17 spd

Looking at some lategame enemy spd values:

lvl 15 halberdier: 17 spd

lvl 15 warrior: 18 spd

lvl 15 sniper: 19 spd (one more level allows Devdan to double)

lvl 15 paladin: 19 spd (one more level allows Devdan to double)

lvl 13 sage: 19 spd (weigh themselves down by 1 or 2 to 17-18 spd)

lvl 17 wyvern lord: 16 spd

lvl 7 berserker: 17 spd

lvl 16 tiger: 19 spd (one more level allows Devdan to double)

All other things they all double (generals) or none of them double (swordmasters, cats, dragons).

Looks like Devdan's spd lead actually gives Devdan an incredibly sizeable offensive advantage, even though it's only a 2 spd lead (though it's a 5 spd lead against Gatrie, who barely doubles anything and even gets doubled by some 20+ spd things).

Loltheywanttouseitallthetime.

Good jorb missing the entire point of it... Though, there wasn't a point, really. The 'lol' already implied it was a sarcastic remark, but apparantly I forgot that sarcasm detection is nigh impossible over the internet.

People like Astrid and Makalov are durable enough. Why you would want to give them +2 def/+2 res just to get superfluous durability is behind my comprehension, really.

Hammerne(what else do you want to use it on?). Geoffrey doesn't really need the Brave Lance,as he doubles anyway, though I guess anyone can quadruple with these weapons.

S rank weapons, killer weapons, slayer weapons... plenty of weapons that are incredibly useful come in limited amounts and deserve to be hammerne'd.

That was also an unpromoted Oscar, and promoted Oscar at Devdan's join time is very reasonable. Post promotion, Oscar's durabiltiy leads over Devdan are even higher

waaat?

With Oscar being kind of fail after he just rejoined in ch 5 and being rather bad for the following few chapters, I wouldn't say promotion is very likely by the time Devdan joins, but that's completely beside the point. The point was that Devdan was comparable to a great unit, and the Oscar he provided is a great unit at that point, whether it's a realistic Oscar or not.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Tino

[Zkirsche]

What's with the strangely levelled units? People say I sandbagged Soren, but 20/10 Brom aginst a level 18 Devdan is silly.

If we were to give Brom 1.75 levels per chapter (He starts off underlevelled like Nephenee. Except he has better durability), this means he's promoted by Chapter 18, like nephenee.

Devdan is, at most, level 8 by chapter 18. This means for your comparison you have given Devdan 10 levels, and Brom 9. Except... Brom is at a lower level so grows faster. Conclusion? Devdan gains 10, Brom gains 15. Brom is now likely to have 22 AS. But wait!!!!11! If for those 2 levels Brom got without the Knight ward Brom used a speed boosting band he has an 85% chance to have 22 AS.

Besides, Brom still doubles more than what he would've done without it, Gatrie too. Who's the same as brom - he grows faster than Devdan.

People like Astrid and Makalov are durable enough. Why you would want to give them +2 def/+2 res just to get superfluous durability is behind my comprehension, really.

Lol@Astrid being durable. But since you asked for it, I'll just respond with the same one I pout in my debate, as I'll repeat myself otherwise:

Level 12/0 Makalov with no Knight ward: 31HP, 11 def

Level 12/0 Makalov with the Knight ward: 31 HP, 13 def

Level 14/0 Astrid with no knight ward: 26 HP, 9 def

Level 14/0 Astrid with the knight ward: 26 HP, 11 def

2* level 16 myrmidon with a steel sword: 19-20 Atk

2* level 18 myrmidon with a steel sword: 20-21 Atk

2* level 15 fighter with a steel axe: 23-24 Atk

2* level 15 knight with a steel lance/javelin: 22/18 Atk

The myrmidons with 19 Atk 4HKO Makalov without the knight ward, but 6HKO’s Makalov if he has the knight ward. If they have 20 atk, they 5HKO him with the knight ward – but that’s still an improvement. The weaker lvl 16 myrmidons 3HKO Astrid without the knight ward, but 4HKO if she equips it. If the myrmidons have 20Atk, they 3HKO either way but with the knight ward Astrid takes less damage, making it much easier for her to survive (Astrid without the knight ward gets killed if she gets attacked by a stronger fighter and stronger lvl 16 myrmidon. With it, she doesn’t die.)

The lvl 18 weaker myrmidons are the same as the lvl 16 stronger myrmidons. The stronger lvl 18 myrmidons are the same against Astrid as the stronger lvl 16 myrmidons too. Against makalov, they 4HKO either way, but with the knight ward, Makalov can survive 2 attacks from said myrmidon and an atatck from the knight with a steel lance.

The fighters 2HKO Astrid without the knight ward, but the weaker ones 3RKO her if she equips the knight ward and the knight ward allows her to go against a stronger lvl 16 myrmidon after wards too. So it’s still an improvement on her end. Makalov gets 3HKO’ed by both without the knight ward, with it, he gets 4HKO’ed by both.

The knights with a javelin 3HKO’s Astrid if she doesn’t equip the knight band, if she does, they 4HKO her. They 4HKO Makalov if he doesn’t equip teh knight ward, but if he does equip it he gets 6RKO’ed by the knight. The knight with a steel lance 2HKO’s Astrid if she doesn’t equip the knight ward but 3RKO’s her if she does equip it. Makalov gets 3RKO’ed by the knight without weilding the knight ward, which improves to a 4RKO if he equips the knight ward.

With Oscar being kind of fail after he just rejoined in ch 5 and being rather bad for the following few chapters, I wouldn't say promotion is very likely by the time Devdan joins, but that's completely beside the point. The point was that Devdan was comparable to a great unit, and the Oscar he provided is a great unit at that point, whether it's a realistic Oscar or not.

He has very little competition for it, and 1.286 levels per chapter isn't much at all.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Tino]

What's with the strangely levelled units? People say I sandbagged Soren, but 20/10 Brom aginst a level 18 Devdan is silly.

Devdan has a small part of chapter 16 and then chapters 17 through 28 to level up. That's 11 chapters. Why Devdan won't be able to gain 14 levels there, I wouldn't know. Seems fairly reasonable to me, really.

But Gatrie and Brom, with their fail mobility and crap offense aren't going to level up very quickly.

[Zkirsche]

Devdan has a small part of chapter 16 and then chapters 17 through 28 to level up. That's 11 chapters. Why Devdan won't be able to gain 14 levels there, I wouldn't know. Seems fairly reasonable to me, really.

But Gatrie and Brom, with their fail mobility and crap offense aren't going to level up very quickly.

Nephenee isn't the best offensively whilst joining. And, as Vykan stated, they really don't need that much exp to level.

Chapter 16? Lolno. You'd be finishing off the chapter by the time you'll recruit Devdan. He'll really have no use.

[Tino]

Nephenee isn't the best offensively whilst joining. And, as Vykan stated, they really don't need that much exp to level.

What's Nephenee got to do with anything? She sucks offensively upon jointime, but she'll start rocking everyone's socks once her spd gets rolling, which won't take too long. Gatrie and Brom will always fail at killing, and they have mobility issues that Nephenee doesn't have.

You can't compare to offensive walking fail-machines to a great unit like Nephenee. Not that she has anything to do with it anyway.

As for the ch 16 comment: so what? I didn't even count that chapter when deciding his level.