FE9 Tier List

[grandjackal]

I feel guilty about Geoff now x.x

As for Tormod though, I'd say he compensates for it pretty thoroughly. Has the best strength out of any mage (of reasonable talents), balanced stats outside of it, his supports (Calill and Devdan, who the fuck else do they got? Oddly enough, helps complete a square with Nephenee, talk about a motley crew) giving him awesome 5 point offense boost (with doubling, that's 10 magic damage), bond with Muarim gives them both 10% crit boost (both have pretty nice skill, Tormod has access to crit boosting thunder magic), and has 2 better move than other mages, with staffs, and actual durability to speak of. How does he NOT compensate for it? Like it keeps being said, not much difference between 10/20 and 20/10, and his staffs help his level case.

As for Geoff, I already said my piece on him.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Kuja

[-Cynthia-]

About Devdan and KW: I'm pretty sure Vykan said that the KW's going to Devdan whenever he's going to level up which is quite reasonable as it's not to difficult to have him hold for when he levels up or when you give him the BEXP to level up, specially if happens to be close to a level up when giving him bonus EXP. KW on Devdan has been shown to be not much of an issue at all.

So everytime Devdan is about to level up, the current holder of the KW has to run over and trade to Devdan? What if they're on the other side of the map? What if Devdan gains a level on the Enemy Phase, not the Player Phase? I'm not arguing that Devdan shouldn't get any KW access, but for him to have it for every level is pretty ridiculous. Devdan can of course get the KW when getting BEXP, but pumping BEXP into Devdan is rather inefficient at his jointime since he'll use substantially more than your unpromoted units.

Mist has a few less chapters without staves as well and she's above him. Soren had some earlygame chapters where he's an asset and early promotion helps him beat Rhys for the rest of the game easily. With Ilyana it probably is questionable as she wasn't an asset like Soren and her combat ability diminishes faster compared to Soren so Rhys probably does make up for that with his early staff use in this situation.

I know you love tout's Soren's earlygame and all, but his utility isn't even comparable to Rhys's. Healing> minor damage output at this point in the game. You also aren't addressing the point that every unit in the game can reap the benefits of the Master Seal, Rhys/Mist/Soren/Illyana are arguably the best candidates, but that doesn't mean that they're the only ones who can use it effectively, by using the Seal they are hurting the performance of a unit who would benefit from it. There are only 2 Master Seals before Chapter 21, so it's a rather hefty cost for early promotion.

At the end of the day, their early promotion is a much greater asset to the team than promoting combat units early because with it, we can replace that fragile healer for a unit that is just 10 heal staves away from using Mend as well as some decent combat with the package and the promotion of a combat unit at this point would be rather less of an asset to the team.

Not necessarily, since said combat units may have less to lose in the long run, since Soren and Illyana are often underleveled compared to some of them. Also, the "fragile healers" enjoy an early promotion themselves, since it allows them a horse in Mist's case, and they both can defend themselves. I will agree that Rhys and Mist are both relatively poor attackers, but being able to hold a weapon means it's less likely for enemies to attack. Rhys and Mist are both superior in terms of healing to Soren/Illyana (horse for Mist, staff levels for both), so it's very arguable that they would deserve the Seals over Soren/Illyana. Since there are only 2 Seals for a long time, it's very competitive.

As for Tormod using the Seal, we would have to not use it until at least Ch16, possibly later. Another unit could have been utilizing it in the meantime, so it's not the best tradeoff.

Also, we've been over Haar vs. Geoffrey a million times. Their stats are basically even, except Geoffrey doubles 75% more enemies. Haar has flyer utility, but the ballista weakness hurts this somewhat, the only maps flyer utility really helps on are 25 and 28. Haar has a whoppin 1.25 chapters of availability over Geoffrey. Let's compare chapters.

Ch 23 Really small win for Haar

Ch 24 Haar wins due to existing and being fairly good

Ch25 Mountain- Haar wins

Ch 26- Geoffrey wins, big offensive lead

Ch 27- Geoffrey wins, big offensive lead

Ch 28- Geoffrey wins, big offensive lead

Endgame- Geoffrey wins, big offensive lead.

4 to 3 Geoffrey wins, even counting Ch 23 as a full win. If you want to move Geoffrey down, you might want to compare him to someone else.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

About Rhys and the Master Seal...I doubt promoting Rhys immediately is that wise a choice. I checked the shop page, and light magic isn't available until chapter 13. (Odd, considering that it isn't buyable until chapter 14 in Normal mode...)

[grandjackal]

As for Tormod using the Seal, we would have to not use it until at least Ch16, possibly later. Another unit could have been utilizing it in the meantime, so it's not the best tradeoff.

Like who?

Combatants could care less, as they rarely get much out of it, and wouldn't mind the extra levels anyways.

Rhys has plenty of time with his staff toys to promote normally.

Mist wants every bit of strength she can squeeze out.

You got two others for Soren and Ill'n.

[dondon151]

What if Devdan gains a level on the Enemy Phase, not the Player Phase?

Seriously? You can't give the KW to Devdan on the player phase before he levels up? I mean, seriously?

Healing> minor damage output at this point in the game.

I'm not going to argue that Rhys is more useful than Soren but please, please stop spouting "minor damage output" when it's been shown pretty thoroughly that the damage output is not minor.

[-Cynthia-]

Seriously? You can't give the KW to Devdan on the player phase before he levels up? I mean, seriously?

This implies that the KW holder will always be in range, will not be an at Exp value where they will miss a KW levelup by giving it to Devdan, and that Devdan won't unexpectedly level up on the Enemy Phase. That's a lot of factors to consider. You also have to accurately calculate how much Exp Devdan will get from a given enemy, which is not readily apparent.

I'm not going to argue that Rhys is more useful than Soren but please, please stop spouting "minor damage output" when it's been shown pretty thoroughly that the damage output is not minor.

Depends on your definition of minor. I don't consider 2-4RKOing very good, but maybe I just have high standards.

Also a few things:

Why does Mist want Str so much? Unless you're advocating she enter melee combat often (not recommended), there's no real reason for her not to promote.

Rhys promoting fairly early requires either staff abuse or a Seal. Rhys promoted in Ch13 is still better than RHys promoted in some later chapter.

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Why does Mist want Str so much? Unless you're advocating she enter melee combat often (not recommended), there's no real reason for her not to promote.

Well gee, she has swords, why not use them? Promoting her early they'd just be useless with her non-existing strength.

Rhys promoting fairly early requires either staff abuse or a Seal. Rhys promoted in Ch13 is still better than RHys promoted in some later chapter.

Doesn't Rhys join chapter 2 (with like a couple earlygame chapters out of it?), if you can't get a staff user to promotion in 9 chapters...

[dondon151]

This implies that the KW holder will always be in range, will not be an at Exp value where they will miss a KW levelup by giving it to Devdan, and that Devdan won't unexpectedly level up on the Enemy Phase. That's a lot of factors to consider. You also have to accurately calculate how much Exp Devdan will get from a given enemy, which is not readily apparent.

A large proportion of your KW users have lots of move and can re-move for easy positioning. A lot of them as well don't really need the +30% spd at level up.

Devdan will not "unexpectedly" level up because any competent player knows roughly how many attacks a unit should see on enemy phase. This is completely irrelevant anyway because I proposed giving Devdan the KW on the player phase when there is a possibility of a level up on enemy phase.

Quite frankly the argument that it's too tedious to calculate EXP gain is bullshit because if we've been playing through the chapter and attacking the enemies, we know EXACTLY how much EXP Devdan gets both from a nonfatal and a fatal attack.

Depends on your definition of minor. I don't consider 2-4RKOing very good, but maybe I just have high standards.

This early in the game, you're lucky to be 2RKOing, so try to lower your standards when the occasion calls for it.

[Vykan12]

There’s obviously too much to respond to in detail so I’ll just summarize.

I think Ilyana > Rhys post promotion. A big AS lead is almost always better than a big atk lead, particularly if both units have poor AS to begin with. Perhaps if Ilyana were doing piddly damage, Rhys could do more in 1 hit than she did in 2. However, enemies have nonexistent res in this game, so that isn’t really the case. I’m not in the mood to bring up enemy samples for that, though I will if need be.

Kuja brought up Tormod being too low, and I think he has a point. He used to be very close to Ilyana in past tier lists, and it can be argued celerity makes a big difference for keeping up with the frontlines, so a case can be made there.

Now for more specific stuff.

I wouldn't say Devdan's performance is a negative, but it's not a big positive either, since he's fairly average at jointime, which I think you can agree with me.

I don’t. Though, since you guys insist on dissecting an offhand Oscar comparison I made, I might as well make another comparison to try and be more persuasive.

Devdan lv --/4 (steel lance): 36 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 11-13 def, 10-12 res, 42 avo

Ike lv 20/0 (A Oscar, C Soren, steel sword): 33 hp, 23 atk, 17 AS, 13 def, 13 res, 79 avo

I am not sandbagging Ike in any way here, unless you think B Soren has happened yet, which gives 1 atk and 3 avo.

Devdan ties in concrete durability, wins atk and has possible 1-2 range. Ike still wins offence due to a lot more AS and durability due to wtfavoid, though neither lead is that pronounced when put in practice.

Let’s look at someone else, namely Jill.

Devdan lv --/4 (steel lance): 36 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 11-13 def, 10-12 res, 42 avo

Jill lv 16/0 (B Mist, B Lethe, steel axe): 29 hp, 26 atk, 13 AS, 16 def, 6 res, 44 avo

I’m being rather generous with Jill’s level here, having given her 2 per chapter. Offensively, Jill wins because of a 2 atk advantage, but that’s the extent of it. Durability, however, is quite arguable since we’re talking 7 hp vs 3-5 def, 2 avo and bow/wind weakness. Sure, Jill can fly, but that’s the only major tiebreaker in this comparison.

Now let’s look at how Devdan is doing vs enemies. In all 3 comparisons I made, his atk was +-2 of a top tier unit, so he's most likely killing what he can double. Though how much is that really? Earlier in the thread, I said the following:

You’re not accounting for AS lost from weapons then.

Devdan can double steel axe fighters, as well as lower-end ones regardless of weapon choice. He’s also double all mages except wind tome users. Actually, according to Reikken’s data on that level, the only things Devdan doesn’t really double is a lone sniper and some myrmidons.

That should establish how much 13 AS doubles, though I’ll be glad to show Devdan’s still doubling a lot in chapter 17-18 onwards if need be.

On the durability end of things:

Against steel sword!Myrmidons, Devdan is barely 4HKOed (7HKOed with KW) at 47 hit. Same thing for iron blade ones, except their hit rates are even lower.

Against steel axe!fighters, he’s 3HKOed at 63 hit. Hand axe ones 4HKO him (6 with KW) at 45 hit.

Steel lance!soldiers 4HKO him (6 w/ KW) at 53 hit. Iron ones 6HKO him (9HKO w/ KW) at 70 hit.

What’s more is for all those 4HKOes, he only needs +1 hp or def to turn those into 5HKOes. Clearly this guy can absorb a decent amount of hits, albeit having unreliable avo.

Haar wins Atk, durability, Mov, supports by a little, flight etc.

Atk is offset by Devdan’s AS advantage. Durability lead is only minor once considering bow weakness, particularly to ballista, which also cuts into his move lead. Move and flight are the same thing, which is superior mobility, and stating the same thing 2-3 times doesn’t make it count more.

I’m not sure you can even say Haar wins supports. Makalov is a given, but Haar x Jill is a lot like Muarim waiting for Largo instead of taking Lethe, so it’s a very neutral support (Jill benefits roughly the same regardless of which option she chooses). IMO, Devdan giving Neph some appreciated bonuses (2+ damage per round and 5 avo at B ) alone is > that.

I’m not going to continue arguing about the KW, you know what my opinion is about that.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I know you love tout's Soren's earlygame and all, but his utility isn't even comparable to Rhys's. Healing> minor damage output at this point in the game.

And I know you love constantly interpreting me as a Soren fanboy or something of the like but point out where I said his damage is greater than Rhys' healing or anything comparable? The point was that he actually had something in addition to instantly nuking Rhys and staying that way after promotion. FFS, most of Soren's rising was because all the sandbagging on him was exaggerated and generated better counter arguments to lead to that (put simply, it freaking backfired), not because of my preference or shit like that because if that were true, Nephenee would unreasonably rise -__-.

You also aren't addressing the point that every unit in the game can reap the benefits of the Master Seal, Rhys/Mist/Soren/Illyana are arguably the best candidates, but that doesn't mean that they're the only ones who can use it effectively, by using the Seal they are hurting the performance of a unit who would benefit from it. There are only 2 Master Seals before Chapter 21, so it's a rather hefty cost for early promotion.

Because an early promotion to units such as Boyd or Oscar would be a superfluous addition to combat while units such as Mia seeing early promotion shows more damage to their lategame than it does to the Sages because their EXP gain will drop and they don't have ability to get staff EXP. Waiting for others to use it would be inefficient. Also, you're worried about "hurting the performance of unit who would benefit from it" when doing so would damage efficiency even more? Also no1 is saying you MUST as we're not assuming that they're always going to be played (otherwise, what the fuck would be the point of having list with more than the maximum number of units you could deploy?)

Not necessarily, since said combat units may have less to lose in the long run, since Soren and Illyana are often underleveled compared to some of them. Also, the "fragile healers" enjoy an early promotion themselves, since it allows them a horse in Mist's case, and they both can defend themselves. I will agree that Rhys and Mist are both relatively poor attackers, but being able to hold a weapon means it's less likely for enemies to attack. Rhys and Mist are both superior in terms of healing to Soren/Illyana (horse for Mist, staff levels for both), so it's very arguable that they would deserve the Seals over Soren/Illyana. Since there are only 2 Seals for a long time, it's very competitive.

Mist is superior to them in terms of healing because she's got a pony once promoted, can heal and run and doesn't have as much trouble keeping up with the mounted units later, that has already been acknowledged from the very beginning so bringing that up is pointless.

Rhys? I already commented on that several times. All he's got is a lead in Staff rank that isn't much of a big deal as Soren/Ilyana will be able to use Mend after 10 heals which would be 30+ HP healing at that point and 20+ HP around these chapters is quite sufficient at the moment. Is there a huge need for B rank staves early or something? As for Physic, Mist would be able to use that fairly soon and Ilyana/Soren would soon after as well. If one had to rank these as candidates for the Master Seals, it would be...

1. Mist

2. Soren

3. Ilyana

4. Rhys

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

This early in the game, you're lucky to be 2RKOing, so try to lower your standards when the occasion calls for it.

Titania ORKOs nearly everything, Gatrie ORKOS when he doubles 2RKOS when he doesn't, Shinon ORKOs to 2RKOS everything, Ike at least 2RKOS most things since he can Regal Sword Knights, can ORKO some things, Boyd usually ORKOs when doubles, 2RKOs when not(or they're Knights). Oscar 2RKOs everything but Knights, so you are once again wrong, Soren's offense still isn't good in earlygame, especially in comparison to everybody else and you have failed to ever show otherwise. Beating Oscar against a single enemy type does not consititute good offense.

Mist's offense with non-magical swords is so bad it doesn't add much to team efficiency for her to have slightly higher Str.

Rhys really doesn't gain that much Exp, assuming we're doing an efficient runthrough and not taking excessively long on chapters. He gains 11 Exp from Heal, 12 from Mend. If he heals once per turn and each chapter takes about 9 turns to complete(some definitely take less) he gains about a level a chapter. he starts out at level 4, so he should be about 13/0 in nine chapters. He should promote naturally in about Chapter 19, without BEXP. He might like to promote before that.

Again, nobody is acknolwedging the point that every unit in the game gets benefits from promoting early. Extra Mov, extra weapon type, increase to all ability score etc. There is a good chance that if the unit is high leveled enough (more likely to have a high level Oscar/Boyd than higher leveled Soren), then they will not feel the negative effects of an early promotion later on. The magic using charactrs might use the Seal best, but that doesn't mean their entitled to it. There's still an opportunity cost associated with it.

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Again, nobody is acknolwedging the point that every unit in the game gets benefits from promoting early. Extra Mov, extra weapon type, increase to all ability score etc. There is a good chance that if the unit is high leveled enough (more likely to have a high level Oscar/Boyd than higher leveled Soren), then they will not feel the negative effects of an early promotion later on. The magic using charactrs might use the Seal best, but that doesn't mean their entitled to it. There's still an opportunity cost associated with it.

The opportunity costs exists for every1 so it is neutral negative and their positive outweighs that of the others.

This point has already been acknowledge, brought up several times and countered several times... we are going around in circles damn it and some of these walls of texts contain obvious stuff that it's just stupid (Titania ORKOs in the earlygame for example) and wastes time.

Also, the only thing ever entitled to any1 was the Arms Scrolls to Mist because apparently, no one wanted to argue against it at the time. There is no entitlement of Master Seals to anyone.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[dondon151]

Titania ORKOs nearly everything, Gatrie ORKOS when he doubles 2RKOS when he doesn't, Shinon ORKOs to 2RKOS everything, Ike at least 2RKOS most things since he can Regal Sword Knights, can ORKO some things, Boyd usually ORKOs when doubles, 2RKOs when not(or they're Knights). Oscar 2RKOs everything but Knights, so you are once again wrong, Soren's offense still isn't good in earlygame, especially in comparison to everybody else and you have failed to ever show otherwise. Beating Oscar against a single enemy type does not consititute good offense.

Titania is obvious. Gatrie ORKOs few enemies outside of chapter 4, because Steel Lance soldiers aren't everywhere anymore (there are still a few). Shinon is obvious. The last two mentioned here have very sparse availability earlygame and aren't always present to overshadow Soren, not to mention they are your best units.

Ike doesn't have the strength to ORKO things, Boyd needs quite a few chapters to get his AS up to a point where he can double (so he is 2RKOing during that time), and as you said, Oscar is far from ORKO.

I mean we can push and pull all we want but I won't be convinced without stats.

[Vykan12]

Oh yeah, I forgot to address Mist sandbagging. I didn’t think much of her either until Reikken convinced me otherwise.

I’ll be focusing on Mist’s post-promotion contribution, though I’ll get back to that at the end of my argument.

First off, Mist is one of the most h4x supporters in the game. Of her options, 4 of them are in high/top tier (Titania, Boyd, Mordecai, Jill) and she is the best option for all of those units. Here are the bonuses we’re talking about:

Boyd A: 3 atk, 1 def

Boyd B: 2 atk, 1 def

Mordecai A: 3 atk, 3 def

Mordecai B: 2 atk, 2 def

Titania//Jill A: 1 atk, 3 def

Titania/Jill B: 1 atk, 2 def

There are a ton of combinations where Mist’s outgoing benefits are either +4 atk/+5 def or +5 atk/+4 def, and the atk in particular makes a big difference when considering doubling (6 extra damage per double for Boyd, which makes it easier for him to ORKO with hand weapons).

This is a huge advantage Mist has over other healers, especially since Mist’s mount allows her to have an easier time actually giving out those bonuses on a consistent basis.

Speaking of mounts, this gives Mist a lot of flexibility. Unlike Rhys/Soren/Ilyana, Mist can canto after healing, meaning Mist’s enemy phase never has to be a negative in any way. It also makes her more effective at using any non-physic staff. For instance, status effects becomes a common problem later in the game, so Mist restore & running is very useful.

Finally, Mist isn’t quite as useless in combat as people seem to think she is.

20/1 Mist (A Mordy, B Boyd, forged steel): 29 hp, 28 atk, 18 mag, 18 AS, 12 def, 21 res, 53 avo

28 atk is enough to 2RKO lv 3 generals (53% damage), and there’s plenty of unpromoteds it downright 1RKOes (lv 18 fighters, for instance). 18 AS doubles pretty much everything but iron sword myrmidons, so that’s not an issue. There’s obviously the sonic sword too, which lets her ORKO about 12.5 enemies at 1-2 range, something that easily outweighs taking 1-2 arm scrolls that nobody wants (weapon levels rise fast in this game so long as you use steel).

Defensively, she has mediocre concrete durability (-1 hp/+2 def on Makalov’s bases) but then 53 avo is pretty considerable, and she has a good chance at getting sol since so many occults are available, and only Ike/paladins make decent use of them.

She’s no Soren in combat, but even without a forge, she’s not always dead weight offensively. For instance, she makes for a great mage killer since she targets their low def while they target her massive res. And, her durability stats are at least decent, especially when you consider how her movement can allow her to avoid huge enemy confrontations thanks to hit & run. I’d say she is the most durable out of all the healers, though that’s a bit arguable.

The issue remains when it is Mist’s promoting, and how useful she is before then. It’s worth considering she’s basically guaranteed to be only your second healer on the team since early promoting Ilyana or Soren in Gallia is ludicrous. Since neither Rhys or Mist can attack before promotion and both have the survivability of a wet tissue, Mist is at worst Rhys’ equal for that period of time.

Mist boils down to getting excellent returns (supports, mobile healing, good to phenomenal attacking) when given a reasonably large amount of resources. The most crippling one would be BEXP since she needs a lot to either promote early to get mounted benefits ASAP, or to reach lv 20/1 before that 23-28 atk starts looking ugly.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

What's teh reasoning behind Ena > Bastian? The latter has supports and more availability, the former has durability and transformation issues.

I think Bastian > Ena.

[soundecho]

Mist promotes at chapter 17~ Reikken made this list on her exp gains each chapter and how she would promote. And what's this about Soren > Rhys. Rhys promotes around chapter ch 15~16 if you give him BEXP.

500 BEXP gives him around 5 levels (what we would give Soren). Using all of the ward staff gives him 2.55 levels. Using the torch staff gives him .75 of a level. Then you can get a good number of restores uses 2~3 which is 40-60 exp.

4 + 5 + .75 + 2.55 + .6 = Level 12.9 Rhys requires 8.1 levels to promote. There are 12 chapters (excluding prison chapter) before chapter 15 to promote, that requires 6 heals per chapter + the use of aforementioned staves to promote by chapter 15. At worst he promotes late chapter 16 because he can use physics.

So Rhys is 20/1 when Soren is something like 16/0. If you forge Rhys a 2 wt tome Rhys is actually only losing to him in speed by like .4 (note you take Rhys' 20/4 stats as the game auto levels Rhys from 1 -> 4) and massively beating him in attack. And then Rhys doesn't lose him to that much in AS. He flies ahead while using physic while Soren is busy using mend. Then he flies even more ahead due to lolashera staff which is insta 3+ levels. So it's something riduculous like 20/5 Soren vs 20/15 Rhys. So Rhys is pretty comparable to Soren in offense until the last few chapters where the enemies catch up.

The main advantages of Rhys are his earlygame healing. Soren has nothing over this. Soren also requires 1500 EXP to promote compared to Rhys (I took away 500 EXP cause Rhys uses BEXP as well).

So it's something like 16~ chapters of being the healer + being pretty awesome in combat until last few chapters + not needing 1500 BEXP + not needing to be fed kills (yes, I do realise things such as Soren being able to finish a soldier) vs lategame h4x.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What's teh reasoning behind Ena > Bastian? The latter has supports and more availability, the former has durability and transformation issues.

I think Bastian > Ena.

I have no clue. Good points there and I doubt she's compensating for that much with just 2 chapters of use... one of them where she easily gets left behind.

Let's see if any1 has something to say for her.

@Soundecho: early promotion for Soren (which came up after much sandbagging so if more of this makes him rise again, I'll laugh) pretty much makes him replace Rhys as this is happening at the start of C11 and 20+ HP of healing is quite sufficient at the time so the ability to use Mend isn't much of a bonus for him. Then there's also the additional MOV and the fact that Soren's got a decent offense so it flat out makes him better than Rhys from this point on until the end of the game and the time Rhys had staves where Soren didn't does not make up for that.

Rhys promoting early has already been considered, of the 4 best candidates for the first 2 master seals, he's the worst.

[Florete]

I think one of the arguments for Ena is that she's one of few who can damage Ashnard if Ike is screwed or something. I personally don't care, though.

[soundecho]

@Soundecho: early promotion for Soren (which came up after much sandbagging so if more of this makes him rise again, I'll laugh) pretty much makes him replace Rhys as this is happening at the start of C11 and 20+ HP of healing is quite sufficient at the time so the ability to use Mend isn't much of a bonus for him. Then there's also the additional MOV and the fact that Soren's got a decent offense so it flat out makes him better than Rhys from this point on until the end of the game and the time Rhys had staves where Soren didn't does not make up for that.

Rhys promoting early has already been considered, of the 4 best candidates for the first 2 master seals, he's the worst.

That quite about kills any combat he ever had. A 15/20 soren has 59% chance to get at least 23 spd or above. That's failing to double weapon knights and cat laguz (not sure about cat laguz, reikkens site is down?). Then a 72% chance to get at least 22, which gets him a lot of trouble if he is unable to double most stuff. If you promote him at chapter 10/1 his offense goes down the drain even more where he averages 21 AS at 20/20. This also kills any of his ability to frontline and use his offense, great 82 avoid vs 130 hit laguz.

So it's now it's 8 chapters of earlygame healing where you units are least durable + not needing 400~ CEXP + not needing a master seal (free level for someone else) vs slightly better offense but still utterly fail compared to everyone else to the point where I wouldn't even use him to attack + better but still mediocre durability.

When Reikken's site comes back online I'll give stats to how inferior he is now due to early promotion.

Also if you're gonna give Soren a master seal, you give Rhys one. I give Soren a master seal. No one else can use it now. I give Rhys a master seal. No one else can use it now. How both of them use doesn;t matter.

Rhys also benefits someone with his support. A with Mia actually allows her to ORKO stuff w/o a crit. A with Ike? I make one of the most durable units in the game even more durable. Great. B Stefan? I give him 5 avoid whoop de doo.

Edited June 15, 2009 by soundecho

[Dr. Tarrasque]

That quite about kills any combat he ever had. A 15/20 soren has 59% chance to get at least 23 spd or above. That's failing to double weapon knights and cat laguz (not sure about cat laguz, reikkens site is down?). Then a 72% chance to get at least 22, which gets him a lot of trouble if he is unable to double most stuff. If you promote him at chapter 10/1 his offense goes down the drain even more where he averages 21 AS at 20/20. This also kills any of his ability to frontline and use his offense, great 82 avoid vs 130 hit laguz.

So it's now it's 8 chapters of earlygame healing where you units are least durable + not needing 400~ CEXP + not needing a master seal (free level for someone else) vs slightly better offense but still utterly fail compared to everyone else to the point where I wouldn't even use him to attack + better but still mediocre durability.

When Reikken's site comes back online I'll give stats to how inferior he is now due to early promotion.

Also if you're gonna give Soren a master seal, you give Rhys one. I give Soren a master seal. No one else can use it now. I give Rhys a master seal. No one else can use it now. How both of them use doesn;t matter.

Rhys also benefits someone with his support. A with Mia actually allows her to ORKO stuff w/o a crit. A with Ike? I make one of the most durable units in the game even more durable. Great. B Stefan? I give him 5 avoid whoop de doo.

@Bold: Looked into it. These negatives you're pointing out for Soren, Rhys has them worse and the positives he gets, Soren gets better.

@Italic: The same is true for everyone who would use it so it all comes down to who puts it to best use. The answer being:

1. Mist

2. Soren

3. Ilyana

4. Rhys

What you just brought up has already been countered and I grow tired of going around in circles with this shit. Just how many times must there be posts with the same arguments brought up over and over again?

I also love how apparently combat only exists in the lategame even though lots of people are struggling in that department if we got the Paladins raping everything.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

What's teh reasoning behind Ena > Bastian? The latter has supports and more availability, the former has durability and transformation issues.

Resolve Ena prevents the game from being un-winnable, and the same applies to Nasir. It only applies to a very small percentage of playthroughs, but it still easily keeps them out of bottom tier.

@soundecho: What you said sounds plausible, but I’ve never found SEXP to level up healers faster than fighters in practice, and I’ve played a LOT of FE in my time. Maybe that’s just me.

@sirius: did you get my PM?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Resolve Ena prevents the game from being un-winnable, and the same applies to Nasir. It only applies to a very small percentage of playthroughs, but it still easily keeps them out of bottom tier.

@soundecho: What you said sounds plausible, but I’ve never found SEXP to level up healers faster than fighters in practice, and I’ve played a LOT of FE in my time. Maybe that’s just me.

@sirius: did you get my PM?

I did. Waiting for another heavy discussion before trying that out because the side against Devdan really didn't do much to convince me.

IIRC, Torch staves are only usable in FOW and the first one you can get is in C14. Any of the Master Seal candidates can easily reach a D in Staves at this point so this is no advantage for Rhys.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Vykan12]

Any of the Master Seal candidates can easily reach a D in Staves at this point so this is no advantage for Rhys.

What about the higher rank staves? Rhys has earlier access to physics, which are pretty commonly acquired if Volke is in play. Then as Soundecho said, Ashera staff is 3+ free level-ups for him, and Soren can't even reach S rank in staves, so you can't really call that favoritism. Sleep + silence probably give a lot as well despite their low usage amount.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What about the higher rank staves? Rhys has earlier access to physics, which are pretty commonly acquired if Volke is in play. Then as Soundecho said, Ashera staff is 3+ free level-ups for him, and Soren can't even reach S rank in staves, so you can't really call that favoritism. Sleep + silence probably give a lot as well despite their low usage amount.

According to a FAQ I'm "reading" (CTRL + F ftw), the first Physic staff comes from the Desert chapter, 15.

Let's see... according to SF, one needs 30 WEx to go from E to D rank in staves and Heal staff is 3 WEx so this just takes 10 uses of Heal. the BEXP C11 requirement is 7 turns so if you're healing every turn, that's 70% done and the next chapter is 9 turns so you've got a D rank pretty easily.

Then in C14, Torch staff (5 WEx) comes in and IIRC, C14 itself is a FoW Chapter though I'm not sure on this one. To go from D to C rank, one needs 40 more WEx and this would be either...

14 uses of Heal (42 WEx)

12 uses of Heal and 1 of Ward which gives 4 WEx (40 WEx)

5 uses of Torch and 5 of Heal (C14 BEXP says 5 turns so that's why I only listed 5 uses of Torch)

I think it's safe to say that it isn't unlikely to have the rank for them to use the first Physic staff.

Sleep comes in C22 and Silence Staff in C18. C to B rank requires 50 WEx.

This site really needs an Item Locations page for FE9.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[soundecho]

@Bold: Looked into it. These negatives you're pointing out for Soren, Rhys has them worse and the positives he gets, Soren gets better.

You don't count things twice. You can't say 1. Soren has better offense 2. Rhys has worse offense.

@Italic: The same is true for everyone who would use it so it all comes down to who puts it to best use. The answer being:

1. Mist

2. Soren

3. Ilyana

4. Rhys

If you're using Rhys, why on earth are you using Mist? And Ilyana is very mediocre.

What you just brought up has already been countered and I grow tired of going around in circles with this shit. Just how many times must there be posts with the same arguments brought up over and over again?

I don't see how any of the stuff I've brought up relate to anything that's being brought up before

I also love how apparently combat only exists in the lategame even though lots of people are struggling in that department if we got the Paladins raping everything.

What I'm talking about is how promoting Soren early basically kills any advantage that Soren has over Rhys lategame. Rhys basically has 8 chapters where he is the only healer (you wouldn't use both him + Mist at the same time).

Since Rhys promotes around chapter 15 Soren has somewhat good existant offense for 4~ chapters. But then Rhys promotes 20/1 Rhys~ 20.5 Mag 12.4 AS if using forged weightless Light compared to 20/5 Soren 14.7 Mag 15.2 AS

But most of the time, they're running around healing so they're offense isn't really being used. 1 mov help in getting to other units, but when Rhys has nothing to do, you might as well use ward. 1 mov will rarely result in life or death of another unit.

So let me sum up some stuff. It's basically 8 chapters of healing (he heals when your units are least durable) + not needing some CEXP vs existant offense for 4~ chapters + slightly better offense for the rest of the game + superfluous durability (after chapter 15, they rarely need to be in enemy ranges).

I swear there was a FoW chapter beofre chapter 14 but I guess I'm wrong.

@ Vykan12 Well I do things such as field Rhys + some random unit in chapter 10 and avoid the soldiers while using ward. And then I usually run a team of 8~9 people meaning more BEXP + using Titania who doesn't need BEXP. By doing stuff like this, I got Rhys promoted by chapter 12 although I passed the BEXP limit by 1~2 turns occasionally to milk some CEXP for my other units.

Edited June 15, 2009 by soundecho