FE9 Tier List

[Florete]

You see what I mean? Bolded is the main argument against her.

Vykan didn't mention what resources he was giving her. I did. Counter that and make it seem like it's really bad enough.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

That's not fair at all. You might as well disregard Volke's thieving utility because it's already been mentioned. Mist's supports are a big point and they will be brought up in an argument for her.

They've been brought up and considered several times already, if bringing that up again and again is going to change her position, then let's bring up reinforce skill for Tanith again and again and put her in Top tier. Her supports are considered and she's quite high enough as it is and more evidence has appeared to show that the gap between her and the other healers shouldn't be that huge. Can't really move the healers up either since they've recently been moved down so the only option there is would be moving Mist down.

Hey, I also found this rather awesome post from Vykan.

I read it a while after it was posted... 20 pages before mine.

The issue remains when it is Mist’s promoting, and how useful she is before then.

Which was looked into in the post I linked you to and was shown that the gap between her and Soren and Rhys should not be that huge.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Vykan didn't mention what resources he was giving her. I did. Counter that and make it seem like it's really bad enough.

First Steel forge is C14, just as I suspected. Throws come in C18, which now cuts much more into the forge. This leaves a grand total of 3 chapters to forge Steel weapons alone.

Then there's the Arms Scrolls. Put simply it isn't a major detriment; however, I did figure out reasons why to give it to other units. Someone like Kieran or any Paladin in general could use these to gain the class effective weapons much faster on top of Kieran getting Steel Lances much faster to build up the WEXP. Gatrie and Brom start with a pitiful E Rank in Swords and could use the boost from E -> D to make themselves useful. Minor notes would be Sages like Soren who could use the item to wield stuff like Meteor and such, so it's still an item that I find competitive to obtain.

For the BEXP argument, we first hit the base upon C8, which means that gives us 2 chapters where we could've used some of it. She does need a fair amount, but I guess I won't entirely shut down something like 10%. It's a negative though, since with level finishing in general I don't think it'll amount to 10% all the time. I wouldn't see it as a major one, but something that could be seen as a pull-under-the-rug.

Nope, not seeing how Mist getting much favoritism is an excuse. Especially with the lack of chapters to make certain forges.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

They've been brought up and considered several times already, if bringing that up again and again is going to change her position, then let's bring up reinforce skill for Tanith again and again and put her in Top tier. Her supports are considered and she's quite high enough as it is and more evidence has appeared to show that the gap between her and the other healers shouldn't be that huge. Can't really move the healers up either since they've recently been moved down so the only option there is would be moving Mist down.

I don't see how Tanith's Reinforce skill s comparable to Mist's supports, and isn't that part of what gives Tanith her position as it is, just like Mist's supports (+ her other stuff) put her in high tier?

I read your post and it was sandbag heaven for Mist. You didn't assume any BEXP, nor did you assume Torch, Ward, Physic, etc. You just went on about 10/1 Mist not being good enough, and I've already covered that issue:

If my calculations are correct, there's 2150 BEXP available by ch. 10, and then a fuckton more (>1000) after ch. 10. Realistically, that leaves us with ~3000 BEXP at ch. 11 (That's about the amount I had on my last HM run). The way I usually do it, I give Mist one level up per base, usually 3-4 at ch. 10/11. 4 levels from level 1 is ~352 (less because she healed a bit on ch. 9), which is a bit more than 10% of what we currently have, not even the max possible. Depending on how long a chapter takes, Mist can get anywhere from 50-80 experience a map, so the BEXP to get her a level is negligible at best. In fact, she should be able to pull out another level of BEXP solely on what she's entitled to. By this method, she should easily be 20/1 by the end of ch. 17, and you can still have plenty of BEXP to spare.

[Dat Nick]

First Steel forge is C14, just as I suspected. Throws come in C18, which now cuts much more into the forge. This leaves a grand total of 3 chapters to forge Steel weapons alone.

You have to consider that by then some units will be promoted and not even need forges.

Someone like Kieran or any Paladin in general could use these to gain the class effective weapons much faster on top of Kieran getting Steel Lances much faster to build up the WEXP.

You remember what game this is, right? FE9, where weapon ranks go up hideously fast. Steel Axes start at E, are dirt cheap, are a pally's best weapon at promotion, and give 2WEXP per attack. One and a half steel axe uses, and poof, there's your slayers right there.

Gatrie and Brom start with a pitiful E Rank in Swords and could use the boost from E -> D to make themselves useful.

And what the hell do Gatrie and Brom care about swords?

[Florete]

Also, speaking of uncountered posts, I dug these up.

Except that Physics aren't very common (lol deploying a Thief and wasting combat for a couple staffs, too), and are far better off used early on to give Mist/Rhys much higher EXP gain. Which also leads to said healer gaining levels extremely fast. 20 EXP a turn is fantastic. And even when there's a Physic around after promotions, let's see...

Level 15/5 Rhys w/ Physic has 19 healing range.

Level 15/1 Mist w/ Heal has 9 healing range.

Which would be signifigant, except that Mist's 9 healing range is enough to heal just about everyone, including Paladins. Also, having a pony means she'll actually be in support range. :o

Mordecai really wants Mist. +3 Attack and Defense helps both enormously. And even if Mordecai just B supports, Jill A gives 7.5% Avoid and 2 Defense. Either way, Mist's durability is fairly good. ^_^

Leveling is easy. She makes the best use of BEXP upon join, so you can dump several hundred on her and not be hit. Also, Physic and Restore give 20 and 15 EXP, respectively. And when healing isn't too needed, Mist is benefitting with supports and chip damage.

Chip damage is always good, and starting with a D rank actually does make Mist viable after a single Arms Scroll (Which she makes a case for best use of) and a few attacks so she can get B Sonic Sword. Then she can actually one-round a few enemies.

Boyd support is slow, but they can get a B after Chapter 19, which is useful if Brom's not in play. Titania will also take her if her ideal support (Boyd A, Ike B) is for whatever reason not used. Actually, Titania A gives Mist full Defense and some Hit, where she suffers most. And it's a quick support. ^_^ So really, Titania A, Boyd B is viable if somehow Mordecai and Jill aren't supporting. With that, both have similar Movement to Mist after she promotes, so there's no reason not to use her supports.

Besides being the only decent healer and an excellent supporter? :o

We'll give Mist Mordecai A, since that gets full ATK and DEF bonuses. This benefits both characters a lot, since Mordecai has good ATK but trouble doubling, and Mist could use the extra ATK and doubles lots of stuff. +3 ATK from a Mordecai support means +6 damage per double. Along with a Jill B,

Also, not many other people are going to need Arms Scrolls, so why not put them into Mist? It helps her offense tremendously when she can use Steel Swords, and it's not like you're going to be using every Arms Scroll you get on her. One would do. A good forged Steel Sword will help her offense quite a bit.

As for promotion, Mist joins in Chapter 9. Now, with Heal staves giving 11 EXP per use, Mist should be leveling up quite reliably, needing to act 10 times in order to gain a level. Also, you can't forget that he staff level will be rising as you use her, granting her acces to higher leveled staves which grant even more experience. Let's say she gains about 1.5 levels per chapter.

Now lets factor in BEXP. Once we hit Chapter 8, we'll have about 1500 BEXP. Assuming we're going with an 8 man team, each character will recieve ~187 BEXP. Save that for Mist next chapter, and there's another couple of levels right there. From that point on, she'll be included in all BEXP divisions, so she'll be gaining about 2 levels a chapter. That means, assuming we are promoting at LVL 20, it'll be about Chapter 19 when she promotes. Could be better, but still not too far behind the rest of your team.

From that point, she becomes even better. 10 chapters is more than enough time to have built up supports, so the entire time she's been moving towards promotion she's been benefiting the team through supports as well as healer utility. Now that she can attack, she gets, as I said earlier, +3 to her ATK stat from Mordecai, as well as defense. Good for her; solid offensive and defensive boosts. Plus she helps Mordecai kick even more ass.

Assuming we give her an Arms Scroll right off the bat, she's using Steel Swords right away. This gives her about 23 ATK, and she is most likely doubling pretty reliably. Of course, this isn't even taking into account forged weapons. Admittidely, Canto is less of an asset than it could be, but it gives her more versatility than other healers and lets her do her job while not straying too far from her support partners.

In addition to everything I've already said, she is the only healer available when fighting the Burger King, and Canto lets her heal Ike without putting herself in any danger whatsoever. Sure, given you manage to activate Aether, a healer won't be all that necessary, but there's a good chance you won't, and a healer will be greatly appreciated.

All in all, Mist is an extremely solid unit, with good supports, offense, durability, and utility.

Mist supports Mordecai and Jill, providing epic bonuses to Mordy with full ATK and DEF, and is also providing +1 ATK, +2 DEF, and +5 AVO for Jill. She heals, she fights, and she provides epic support bonuses to good characters.

Volke can't do shit as far as fighting goes, so Mist beats him there. He's providing thief utility, though, and having better durability than Sothe, along with a promotion, makes him the more logical choice for the job. However, he really doesn't net you anything spectacular, and on maps where he is deployed you have to be careful due to low durability.

On another note, guess what Volke's support options are? Bastian. Wow. His only support option is the second worst character in the game. Even if you do field Bastian and give him A Volke, all it adds it +15 to hit and Avo. But we're not fielding Bastian.

Mist has epic supports, nice offense (+4 ATK with A Mordy B Jill), good durability (+5 DEF and AVO with A Mordy B Jill), and has healer utility, along with a pony. She helps quite a bit when fighting the BK, although that only really gets you Nasir. Still, having Nasir > having Ena.

Volke has shit for offense, shit for durability, and lawl supports. Thief utility, yeah, but that's the only way he benefits the team. I think Mist is fine where she is.

[Dat Nick]

I've got my doubts about Mist moving done as well, but quoting a bunch of people circle jerking over Mist really isn't helping your case.

[Colonel M]

You have to consider that by then some units will be promoted and not even need forges.

Example:

Tanith (Steel Lance) - 26 Atk

Most enemies have a bit over 30 HP / 10 Def. Soldiers obviously follow that case.

You remember what game this is, right? FE9, where weapon ranks go up hideously fast. Steel Axes start at E, are dirt cheap, are a pally's best weapon at promotion, and give 2WEXP per attack. One and a half steel axe uses, and poof, there's your slayers right there.

THere's still Kieran with Lances (Iron Lances? No.) and using up one and a half Steel Axe uses to get there. That's 45 uses of a freaking Axe and we could've had Hammer. If you forgotten, Astrid starts with BOWS as her main weapon at this point.

And what the hell do Gatrie and Brom care about swords?

Brave Swords and WTC in general. Not that the latter matters a whole lot, but that just helps bend Def down against Axe users.

quoting a bunch of people circle jerking over Mist really isn't helping your case.

Main reason why I didn't even bother countering them. This isn't toward Prog or Red Fox, but just those three quotes that you brought up.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

I've got my doubts about Mist moving done as well, but quoting a bunch of people circle jerking over Mist really isn't helping your case.

I understand what you mean, but as far as I can tell, Sirius's main reasoning for moving Mist down was that no one countered his post previously and others being in agreement. So I pulled the same thing out.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't see how Tanith's Reinforce skill s comparable to Mist's supports, and isn't that part of what gives Tanith her position as it is, just like Mist's supports (+ her other stuff) put her in high tier?

I was not comparing Reinforce with Mists' supports. I was saying that constantly bringing up the same arguments that are already reason for a character's position won't necessarily bring him/her up. Yes, of course you should use that argument to elaborate to some1 who disagrees.

I read your post and it was sandbag heaven for Mist. You didn't assume any BEXP

I didn't? What the hell is this then?

Assuming she heals each and every turn (which is possibly not happening as there may be some turns she can't heal) and we last that many turns on the chapters, this is 297 EXP if we assume Heal, 324 if we assume it's always Mend (which ain't happening) and 315 if we assume 10 Heals and 17 Mend.

Thus, she'd be lvl 4. To get either of the first 2 Master Seals she'll need more BEXP use than the others.

nor did you assume Torch, Ward, Physic, etc. You just went on about 10/1 Mist not being good enough, and I've already covered that issue:

Ok Ward I didn't assume but it'd only be a few uses since Rhys could use some of that staff as well and it may not even result in another level for her.

Torch... I remember that I didn't come till like... Chapter 14 IIRC so how do I about assuming Torch staff use by C11 or C12 when it doesn't exist then O_o?

I also remember looking into when Physic comes in and it isn't until C15 so the same I said about Torch applies here. Not to mention that the other Healers can reach the rank to use those staves by the time they show up so to assume it all on just Mist is favoritism.

I understand what you mean, but as far as I can tell, Sirius's main reasoning for moving Mist down was that no one countered his post previously and others being in agreement. So I pulled the same thing out.

Hey, I gotta do something to spark some conversation. I've been bugged by others about Mists' position several times and didn't know what to do about it and always waited for your input on it... I think I even PMed you about that.

Oh and the shitload of Chapter 10 BEXP happens if you sneak in the chapter. I dunno what's the agreement on this one... to sneak for BEXP or to fight for the less tedious CEXP?

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

THere's still Kieran and using up one and a half Steel Axe uses to get there. That's 45 uses of a freaking Axe and we could've had Hammer.

so what? It's not like 45 Axe uses is a crap load, and it's not like Steel Axes aren't a dime a dozen.

Not even taking into account that Kieran starts at C Axes already...

If you forgotten, Astrid starts with BOWS as her main weapon at this point.

...K? And? Bow rank isn't really a problem for Astrid.

Brave Swords and WTC in general.

They're not entitled to brave swords just because everybody else can double, you know. Guys like Zihark want to blick something before they can counter at one range just as badly as Gatrie and Brom want to double. Hell, I'd argue they want to MORE since, well, Gatrie and Brom don't really give two shits if they have to eat a counter. Even WITH arms scrolls their sword rank is going up way too slow to justify use of a weapon they're not even entitled to.

[Colonel M]

so what? It's not like 45 Axe uses is a crap load, and it's not like Steel Axes aren't a dime a dozen.

Not even taking into account that Kieran starts at C Axes already...

*facepalm*.

Again, 45 Axe uses before hitting Hammers. Once again, I'll point out: we could've had it sooner than later. I don't want Makalov using effective Swords forever when they constantly face WTD.

Then there's Kieran. LANCES in general.

...K? And? Bow rank isn't really a problem for Astrid.

No effective weapons perhaps?

They're not entitled to brave swords just because everybody else can double, you know. Guys like Zihark want to blick something before they can counter at one range just as badly as Gatrie and Brom want to double. Hell, I'd argue they want to MORE since, well, Gatrie and Brom don't really give two shits if they have to eat a counter. Even WITH arms scrolls their sword rank is going up way too slow to justify use of a weapon they're not even entitled to.

No, but Gatrie and Brom do give two shits about wanting to double attack with something without major use of the KW. Not to mention that it gives them both a second Brave option or a greater chance of a Laguz-effective weapon.

[Florete]

I was not comparing Reinforce with Mists' supports. I was saying that constantly bringing up the same arguments that are already reason for a character's won't necessarily bring him/her up. Yes, of course you should use that argument to elaborate to some1 who disagrees.

Well then how am I supposed to raise her with supports suddenly being...I don't even know what the term I'm looking for is?

I didn't? What the hell is this then?

Guess I missed that. Sorry.

Torch... I remember that I didn't come till like... Chapter 14 IIRC so how do I about assuming Torch staff use by C11 or C12 when it doesn't exist then O_o?

I also remember looking into when Physic comes in and it isn't until C15 so the same I said about Torch applies here. Not to mention that the other Healers can reach the rank to use those staves by the time they show up so to assume it all on just Mist is favoritism.

But wait, why is Mist promoting so damn early? My method promotes her at 17, which is plenty good enough and allows her to promote at 18-20. Depending on the amount of healing and BEXP, she might not even need a Seal. And what other healers are already up to C rank staves by ch. 16 other than Rhys? You can't seriously tell me Soren or Ilyana have already promoted and done enough healing.

Hey, I gotta do something to spark some conversation. I've been bugged by others about Mists' position several times and didn't know what to do about it and always waited for your input on it... I think I even PMed you about that.

That time you PMed me about was at a different time than the time we're referring to now, and I did join in that time. I tried joining in this last time, but it appeared to have already been handled by the time I showed up, so there wasn't much for me to do. Then you made that post when I left for 5 days, so I never had a chance to counter it.

And Mist getting to ranks for the magic swords isn't even a big deal. Toss her a Steel Sword and watch her rank go up. She might need 1, but definitely not both.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

I go to write a linear algebra test, and when I come back this topic explodes with >40 new posts. Wtf is with the sporadic posting here? Also, it's curious how Red Fox shows up the second someone tries to move Mist down, though I won't make too much of that :P

What pains me greatly in reading (err skimming) these posts is the assumption that Mist having good offence is somehow important. No one cares how bad she fights at 10/1, she'll just stick to healboting instead to optimize her use. Making her able to fight decently is an option she has, and some would argue a couple arms scrolls is worth getting her to 1RKO stuff with the sonic sword.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But wait, why is Mist promoting so damn early? My method promotes her at 17, which is plenty good enough and allows her to promote at 18-20. Depending on the amount of healing and BEXP, she might not even need a Seal. And what other healers are already up to C rank staves by ch. 16 other than Rhys? You can't seriously tell me Soren or Ilyana have already promoted and done enough healing.

That's the tricky thing about Mist. If she promotes early, she's at least able to do the same as the early promoted sages: combat and healing, though hers at this point is weaker as already shown.

If she isn't promoting early, the time she's not promoted is time she's losing to the early promoted sages for they've got combat and healing. Rhys' staff rank was shown to be a very minor advantage at that point and since his is obviously higher than Mists' the same is said about her staff rank.

That time you PMed me about was at a different time than the time we're referring to now, and I did join in that time. I tried joining in this last time, but it appeared to have already been handled by the time I showed up, so there wasn't much for me to do. Then you made that post when I left for 5 days, so I never had a chance to counter it.

Hmm guess I should PM people about it more often then.

About the Arm Scrolls: We have literally entitled her to 2 Arms scrolls or at least. Mist is almost always mentioned whenever Arm scrolls are brought up for some1 and noted as the competition for them.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

Again, 45 Axe uses before hitting Hammers.

Exactly. So what? When you double everything, 23 rounds is NOT a whole lot to ask for. Never mind that hammers aren't even buyable, so not being able to use them for one, two more chapters TOPS is really not the huge deal you're making it out to be.

I don't want Makalov using effective Swords forever when they constantly face WTD.

So have him use Steel Axes instead.

Then there's Kieran. LANCES in general.

Reiteraing an earlier point, why does Kieran have any intrest in lances when he's loling at the entire game with Axes already?

No effective weapons perhaps?

K, so you see what I mean when I say she doesn't really care about her bow rank so long as she can use steel.

So why the hell did you even bring up Astrid being locked to bows?

No, but Gatrie and Brom do give two shits about wanting to double attack with something without major use of the KW.

Yeah. But after all that favoritism we oozed into them so they can double attack....whoops, there they are, not doubling anything again. Was 15 rounds of one rounding REALLY worth an arms scroll and goddess knows how many rounds of them swinging around inferior weapons with no 1-2 range? I don't think so. At least Mist puts SOME sort of longterm use to the arms scrolls.

[-Cynthia-]

I go to write a linear algebra test, and when I come back this topic explodes with >40 new posts. Wtf is with the sporadic posting here? Also, it's curious how Red Fox shows up the second someone tries to move Mist down, though I won't make too much of that :P

What pains me greatly in reading (err skimming) these posts is the assumption that Mist having good offence is somehow important. No one cares how bad she fights at 10/1, she'll just stick to healboting instead to optimize her use. Making her able to fight decently is an option she has, and some would argue a couple arms scrolls is worth getting her to 1RKO stuff with the sonic sword.

Well, combat utility is important, since obviously being able to kill enemies> not killing enemies. It's a point against Mist, since people like Soren are much better fighters and can also heal. Mist of course has her advantages over Soren (pony, supports), but being better at killing things is not an inconsequential advantage.

As for the Sonic Sword, giving Mist the Arms Scrolls is questionable. We can sell them for cash (granted we won't need much at most points in the game, but still), give them to other people (Classes with multiple weapons often have trouble raising levels). Then there's possible use by other characters, mainly Tanith who reaches Wyverns faster. It also does only last for 12.5 enemies. I'll admit Mist is probably best with the Arms Scrolls, but they do have other uses (as well as the Sword itself).

Edited July 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

It also does only last for 12.5 enemies.

First off, you forgot the runesword.

Second, you make it sound like magic swords is the only reason we're giving Mist an arms scroll.

[Colonel M]

Second, you make it sound like magic swords is the only reason we're giving Mist an arms scroll.

Actually... it is the reason.

[Florete]

Also, you have to explain why Volke > Mist, which I believe was disproven. I won't assign value to their utility for now (healing and thieving) because assigning values there would be tough, but she's 10x the supporter he is and she's better in combat, has greater range, etc.

[-Cynthia-]

First off, you forgot the runesword.

Second, you make it sound like magic swords is the only reason we're giving Mist an arms scroll.

I "forgot" the Runesword because Mist loses a lot of AS from it. 20/9 Mist loses 4 AS, 20/14 loses 3 etc. It's enough to send her from doubling to not doubling, plus it hurts her Avo.

[Dat Nick]

Actually... it is the reason.

It's not the only one. She doesn't have to put up with the suck of Iron and can be average-good at combat right away. That's good.

I "forgot" the Runesword because Mist loses a lot of AS from it. 20/9 Mist loses 4 AS, 20/14 loses 3 etc. It's enough to send her from doubling to not doubling, plus it hurts her Avo.

There's an energy drop in C21, and if a non-Mist unit honestly needs it, you must be doing something horribly wrong.

[Colonel M]

One could mention Thief utility is more unique than healing. How is that not an advantage for Volke?

As for Mist being a better combatant, again, this relies heavily on her supports and the forged weapon.

It's not the only one. She doesn't have to put up with the suck of Iron and can be average-good at combat right away. That's good.

Arms Scroll in general, which you asked why she would need it. In that case, I answered: getting the Sonic Sword faster.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

One could mention Thief utility is more unique than healing. How is that not an advantage for Volke?

As for Mist being a better combatant, again, this relies heavily on her supports and the forged weapon.

One could mention healing is more valuable than thief utility. How is that not an advantage for Mist?

The supports that she's very easily getting? The one's Volke never has unless one of the worst characters in the game gets fielded? The forge that she might as well be entitled to and Volke doesn't even have the ability to get since Daggers can't be forged?

[Dat Nick]

Arms Scroll in general,

Not really. Steel Axes are E rank in this game so pallies/Jill can pick them up right away and still be cool at combat. Classes that have a non-axe secondary weapon really aren't that bothered about the WT. Mist is pretty much the only one that sees a VERY noticeable jump in overall combat utility with no effort from it.