FE9 Tier List

[Colonel M]

One could mention healing is more valuable than thief utility. How is that not an advantage for Mist?

There are more units that have access to Staves than units that have access to thieving.

The supports that she's very easily getting? The one's Volke never has unless one of the worst characters in the game gets fielded? The forge that she might as well be entitled to and Volke doesn't even have the ability to get since Daggers can't be forged?

She's reliant on them, as in the other units would likely have to move first to help fix her offense, unless you really WANT to be stuck with 22 Atk, which is even worse than Volke. At least Volke isn't requiring resources (the forge in general) to fix his offense. Not that he was getting much further with it, but it's not something you can "just ignore".

EDIT: for the hell of it, let's just say everyone at this point is 20/1 by C18. Units that could use a forge.

- Ike with forged Steel Sword KOes most Wyverns.

- Tanith with forged Steel Lance can just about ORKO things.

- Makalov and Astrid with forged Steel Axe can ORKO more than the Soldiers.

There's more I can bet.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

She's reliant on them, as in the other units would likely have to move first to help fix her offense, unless you really WANT to be stuck with 22 Atk, which is even worse than Volke.

That's not much worse than a 20/1 Volke, who has 23 with dagger

At least Volke isn't requiring resources (the forge in general) to fix his offense.

And at least Mist CAN fix her offense.

[Florete]

There are more units that have access to Staves than units that have access to thieving.

That says nothing about the value of the ability, and the majority of healers only get it on promotion, and can still only use Heal.

She's reliant on them, as in the other units would likely have to move first to help fix her offense, unless you really WANT to be stuck with 22 Atk, which is even worse than Volke. At least Volke isn't requiring resources (the forge in general) to fix his offense. Not that he was getting much further with it, but it's not something you can "just ignore".

I don't see what you're saying about her supports. She wants them, her partners want them, what's the big deal? In fact, all of them except Boyd match her promoted movement.

The problem with the forge is that Mist can get one to fix her offense. Volke can't. His offense will never be very good.

[Colonel M]

That's not much worse than a 20/1 Volke, who has 23 with dagger

23.5, which about 24.

And at least Mist CAN fix her offense.

don't see what you're saying about her supports. She wants them, her partners want them, what's the big deal? In fact, all of them except Boyd match her promoted movement.

She's reliant on them, as in the other units would likely have to move first to help fix her offense, unless you really WANT to be stuck with 22 Atk, which is even worse than Volke.

Read the bold.

That says nothing about the value of the ability, and the majority of healers only get it on promotion, and can still only use Heal.

With this crappy argument of WEXP in general it wouldn't take that long to even reach Mend.

[Dat Nick]

Read the bold.

I read the bold. It's not changing the fact that Mist can actually scrape together semi decent offense as soon as she gets tossed a forged steel whereas Volke can NEVER do that. Never. Ever. EVER.

[Colonel M]

I read the bold. It's not changing the fact that Mist can actually scrape together semi decent offense as soon as she gets tossed a forged steel whereas Volke can NEVER do that. Never. Ever. EVER.

Stilleto comes by C20 and another one arrives with Bastian by C24. That's about half a chapter (or a chapter and a half, I can't recall) that Volke has to wait around until having +4 Mt and auto-scrapping of Generals. Granted it only jumps up to 16 Mt, but it's backed by an existing Str stat.

[Florete]

EDIT: for the hell of it, let's just say everyone at this point is 20/1 by C18. Units that could use a forge.

- Ike with forged Steel Sword KOes most Wyverns.

- Tanith with forged Steel Lance can just about ORKO things.

- Makalov and Astrid with forged Steel Axe can ORKO more than the Soldiers.

There's more I can bet.

How many times have I gone over this? Why do Ike, Tanith, Makalov, and Astrid, and anyone else we're using not already have forges ready to use? Hell, I often find myself forging ahead in this game (meaning I forge a weapon I won't use until later) because my current team is already properly equipped. A forge is not such a big deal.

Read the bold.

What does that matter? She's getting them, so it doesn't matter that she "relies" on them. It's like saying Sothe relies on the Beastkiller in RD. He's getting it, so there's no argument against it. And if they have to "move first"....Okay? So what? You'll probably be doing that anyway so that Mist can heal if someone gets hit.

With this crappy argument of WEXP in general it wouldn't take that long to even reach Mend.

Awesome, now they can use Mend. Your argument?

[Colonel M]

How many times have I gone over this? Why do Ike, Tanith, Makalov, and Astrid, and anyone else we're using not already have forges ready to use? Hell, I often find myself forging ahead in this game (meaning I forge a weapon I won't use until later) because my current team is already properly equipped. A forge is not such a big deal.

I dunno, maybe because there's 3 chapters to make the stupid things in the first place before C18? And by then we can forge h4x ranged weapons?

What does that matter? She's getting them, so it doesn't matter that she "relies" on them. It's like saying Sothe relies on the Beastkiller in RD. He's getting it, so there's no argument against it. And if they have to "move first"....Okay? So what? You'll probably be doing that anyway so that Mist can heal if someone gets hit.

Goddamit, read. There was no point of "Mist not getting her supports", it's "being near her supports" which is the argument against her. Not always will she be around these specific units. What happens if Maurim can OHKO the enemy but Mist cannot, but in order to do so he needs the support and if Maurim moves first the support is broken?

Awesome, now they can use Mend. Your argument?

That they can heal now? And Physic was likely with Crown Soren or Ilyana? And unpromoted Rhys? Canto is the only thing that's making it unique.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

I dunno, maybe because there's 3 chapters to make the stupid things in the first place before C18? And by then we can forge h4x ranged weapons?

Make what things exactly? And maybe we can have a weapon for her before then anyway, as I mentioned was a possibility. And what about the possibility of trading?

Goddamit, read. There was no point of "Mist not getting her supports", it's "being near her supports" which is the argument against her. Not always will she be around these specific units.

I covered that too.

And if they have to "move first"....Okay? So what? You'll probably be doing that anyway so that Mist can heal if someone gets hit.

That they can heal now? And Physic was likely with Crown Soren or Ilyana?

Mend is barely better than Heal, and Physic is at C.

[Colonel M]

Make what things exactly? And maybe we can have a weapon for her before then anyway, as I mentioned was a possibility. And what about the possibility of trading?

Steel forged unless you want weak Iron forges.

I covered that too.

And if they have to "move first"....Okay? So what? You'll probably be doing that anyway so that Mist can heal if someone gets hit.

There was more to it, but it sort of slipped that in the case Mordecai could KO and Mist cannot, she could simply attack first and Canto back.

Mend is barely better than Heal, and Physic is at C.

Again, easy to nab. With all these other good D Staves in the first place.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Mend is barely better than Heal, and Physic is at C.

Still likely.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=451065

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Florete]

There was more to it, but it sort of slipped that in the case Mordecai could KO and Mist cannot, she could simply attack first and Canto back.

What if Mordy attacks first and Mist comes up behind? I don't see this as a very good argument. She could also be supporting Titania and/or Jill, who both have Canto.

Again, easy to nab. With all these other good D Staves in the first place.

Is that sarcasm, or are you really hyping Ward?

Still likely.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=451065

You also assumed they were always using a staff, which, unless it's Rhys you're talking about, is not the case. And Mist still has better range with a Physic on promotion, so...

[Colonel M]

I'm so sick of this circular argument.

What if Mordy attacks first and Mist comes up behind? I don't see this as a very good argument. She could also be supporting Titania and/or Jill, who both have Canto

I scrapped it already.

Is that sarcasm, or are you really hyping Ward?

You attempted to hype Ward and Torch, so why not?

So if we're seriously scrapping out this utility crap like you've said iunno posts ago, you're only doing this to keep Mist up.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

You attempted to hype Ward and Torch, so why not?

Torch is C. Ward could already be used up, and by "hyping" I was referring to the way you said "all these other good D satves."

Waitwaitwait, I made a mistake. Ward is C, Torch is D. Scrap that (not the hyping thing, the other part)

So if we're seriously scrapping out this utility crap like you've said iunno posts ago, you're only doing this to keep Mist up.

What? I'm doing this because Mist is a High tier character. What are you saying?

[Colonel M]

You're simply stating that we can't compare the utilitys, which in this case you would consider a scratchout and then overhype the support faction.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You also assumed they were always using a staff, which, unless it's Rhys you're talking about, is not the case. And Mist still has better range with a Physic on promotion, so...

I didn't. I simply listed possibilities, not mention that I only discussed a few chapters and not the others. All I did was just show that it isn't unlikely for them to reach C rank by the time Physic shows up and if they don't reach it, it's happening VERY SOON cause o the way staves level up.

Also, speaking of uncountered posts, I dug these up.

All of them already read, addressing things which was already covered by Vykan's much earlier post for the most and the 2 that made these posts never countered mine and never addressed what Vykan said was missing.

Whether or not Volke is > Mist at this point is uncertain, I simply put her there to see what people think. Clearly, you're against it and insist that she should remain high tier but no, she's not staying in high tier, she's going to upper mid, be it above Volke or not. For now though, above Volke.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

To put in my $0.02, Volke's theiving utility is better than Mist's healing utility. We have more healers than theives and more vulenaries and stuff than Chest Keys.

Edited July 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

To put in my $0.02, Volke's theiving utility is better than Mist's healing utility. We have more healers than theives and more vulenaries and stuff than Chest Keys.

Not to add that we can't steal any items like Mends without Volke.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not to add that we can't steal any items like Mends without Volke.

I'm betting this will be bombed by the fact that we get a shitload of funds in the game that stealing mend is hardly meaningful.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm betting this will be bombed by the fact that we get a shitload of funds in the game that stealing mend is hardly meaningful.

Stealing Physics however is, since they aren't buyable until Endgame.

Also, anyone oppose Haar>Tormod?

[Colonel M]

I'm betting this will be bombed by the fact that we get a shitload of funds in the game that stealing mend is hardly meaningful.

This was what I was getting at: he can steal a bunch of goodies and make the cash flow fluid for us. Yeah we have a lot of cash, but we do have the opportunity on saving money by simply stealing something like Mends. Of course there's more that he can steal, but I'll hold on that.

[Florete]

You're simply stating that we can't compare the utilitys, which in this case you would consider a scratchout and then overhype the support faction.

I said it was tough to compare. And what overhyping? Mist's supports rock. It's not overhyping if it's true.

I didn't. I simply listed possibilities, not mention that I only discussed a few chapters and not the others. All I did was just show that it isn't unlikely for them to reach C rank by the time Physic shows up and if they don't reach it, it's happening VERY SOON cause o the way staves level up.

Fair enough, but when are they promoting again?

All of them already read, addressing things which was already covered by Vykan's much earlier post for the most and the 2 that made these posts never countered mine and never addressed what Vykan said was missing.

I'd call most of what was said an indirect counter to your post, which I've more or less countered at this point anyway.

Whether or not Volke is > Mist at this point is uncertain, I simply put her there to see what people think. Clearly, you're against it and insist that she should remain high tier but no, she's not staying in high tier, she's going to upper mid, be it above Volke or not. For now though, above Volke.

So even though good arguments for her in High tier have been shown, you're simply not going to do it just because? I'm pretty sure that's not how tier lists work.

To put in my $0.02, Volke's theiving utility is better than Mist's healing utility. We have more healers than theives and more vulenaries and stuff than Chest Keys.

Our units like being alive. It's not like there are some h4x items being stolen by our thieves, and once Sothe comes in Volke is getting less credit anyway. Also, it's only helping if it's in a chapter where thieving has value, which isn't all chapters. Every chapter wants a healer or two.

[Colonel M]

Volke getting less credit? Notice that a Blossom!Sothe has about the same durability as base Volke by Level 9, at which case Volke would've gained more levels by that point?

which I've more or less countered at this point anyway.

By banging a ton of resources onto her. Sure they aren't as useful on other units, but that doesn't mean it's that much of a freaking victory for her. Not like I'm going to go ahead and try to push Rolf out of bottom tier with a bunch of resources, so what exactly is Mist doing with it? I've sufficiently said people want Steel forges when there really was "no" counter to that (BB missed the entire point of it). I know she's high in particular because of Canto lategame and good supports, but this doesn't mean she's "High" tier.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Fair enough, but when are they promoting again?

1's promoting in 11, the other in 12.

I'd call most of what was said an indirect counter to your post, which I've more or less countered at this point anyway.

Eh? Only thing you brought up that wasn't considered was just Ward for Mist which you kinda debunked on your own when you reminded us that it was C rank.

So even though good arguments for her in High tier have been shown, you're simply not going to do it just because? I'm pretty sure that's not how tier lists work.

No, those arguments were basically re-stating the reasons she WAS in high tier. Currently the only people that agree that she should be high tier after reading that post I linked to are you and perhaps BB.

Our units like being alive. It's not like there are some h4x items being stolen by our thieves, and once Sothe comes in Volke is getting less credit anyway. Also, it's only helping if it's in a chapter where thieving has value, which isn't all chapters. Every chapter wants a healer or two.

The same logic actually works against Mist too, perhaps worse.

When she comes in, we've already got a healer.

When a Sage gets the early promotion in C11, that's already another healer getting in her way and one I've shown to be better than Mist during this time. Yeah Mist is probably the better Healer later but if she promotes in 10/1 Soren's better in the midgame. If she promotes later, in the time she remains unpromoted she's even worse than Soren.

EDIT: About Physic range, granted but it's just a 2 range difference and 6 range + 6 MOV Physic is quite sufficient as it is.

@Cynthia: Tino's the one that suggested moving Tormod above Haar. I'll wait for his input on that.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Sirius

[Florete]

1's promoting in 11, the other in 12.

What the hell? Why so early? In fact, why do we even assume they get Seals?

Eh? Only thing you brought up that wasn't considered was just Ward for Mist which you kinda debunked on your own when you reminded us that it was C rank.

What about the whole part of early promotions?

No, those arguments were basically re-stating the reasons she WAS in high tier. Currently the only people that agree that she should be high tier after reading that post I linked to are you and perhaps BB.

It looked like Vykan might have agreed, though he seemed more neutral. Otherwise, not too many people have been posting on this subject. I'd assume SS and Xort would still defend her, and I think Tino defended her in High as well.

The same logic actually works against Mist too, perhaps worse.

When she comes in, we've already got a healer.

Yes, I know, and I never denied it.

When a Sage gets the early promotion in C11, that's already another healer getting in her way and one I've shown to be better than Mist during this time. Yeah Mist is probably the better Healer later but if she promotes in 10/1 Soren's better in the midgame. If she promotes later, in the time she remains unpromoted she's even worse than Soren.

What I haven't gotten ever since it was brought up is why we're assuming a Mage gets an early promotion. It kills their long term offense and there are only 2 before chapter 21. I for one don't think anyone should be assumed to get an early promotion except possibly Mist and/or Rhys. Even so, I wouldn't assume the Mages automatically come next. Jill, Makalov, Oscar, and Astrid can use one to get Axes faster and anyone can use one to remove some extra leveling.