Reikken vs Kirsche

[Zkirsche]

Eaten by the forum before.

Reikken opens. Good luck.

[Reikken]

I got halfway through this before I remembered that this is a short debate, so I decided to go ahead and finish it normally and then cut afterwards. I guess that was a mistake... I ended up with lol5pages. The long version is saved also. Anyway...

. . . . I'll skip Astrid's ch 13/14 performance and move straight to exp gains. If you have a problem with it, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. Anyway, in this chpater, she gains 30-40 per hit and 80-100 per kill. Easily 440 exp with no “babying” or whatever. Level 5.40. Then, given 300 bexp, she ends at lv 11.52. After ch 14, Makalov has gained about a half a level, since he joins in the latter half and on the wrong side of the map to reach the last enemies. Astrid, meanwhile, was there from the start, already has decent offense due to spd, and has Paragon. 2.5 lvs pretty easily, putting her at lv 14. Then after Makalov gets as much bexp, he's now level 13.31. Now we can compare them directly. Assuming they got all their bexp levels with the Knight Ward and Astrid got 2 with it in her 7 other level ups...

Mak, iron sword: 15.7 atk, 12.4 AS, 115.6 hit, 4.0 crit - - 33.6 avo, 31.8 hp, 11.4 def, 2.6 res, 8.8 critavo

steel sword: 18.7 atk, 11.1 AS, 100.6 hit, 4.0 crit - - 31.0 avo

Astrid, steel bow: 20.2 atk, 15.9 AS, 104.6 hit, 6.3 crit - - 40.0 avo, 25.9 hp, 8.9 def, 7.2 res, 8.2 critavo

. . . . Astrid is clearly dominating in offense. I don't think I need to go into that. Also, Astrid has exclusive access to killer bows, which are very helpful when unable to one-round without a crit. On defense, Makalov looks to fare better his higher def/hp. What is defense good for, though? Counterattacking and being able to attack without risk of getting killed. Astrid wins by a lot in res, and most non mages won't be countering her, and she has high move and can move to a better position after attacking. Makalov, however, gets countered by everything but archers, and he has to move closer to the enemy to attack, using up more of his move, making him less able to relocate afterward. So in ability to attack without risk of getting killed, Astrid actually wins.

. . . . What about counterattacking? Makalov has garbage offense, as shown. If we have him counterattacking as opposed to Kieran, Ike, etc, enemy phase offense takes a big hit. That's quite inefficient. Of course, dishing out poor damage is better than dishing out no damage, right? But Astrid is rarely getting attacked melee, as explained already. That's not much of an advantage that Makalov is sporting. Being able to counterattack is no good when you suck at it. Meanwhile, against bows and mages and other 1-2 rangers, Astrid can counterattack while Makalov cannot, and Astrid has one of the strongest ranged offenses on the team. The 1-2 rangers require somewhat specific positioning, but that's easily doable thanks to range + horse. While Astrid may be less often able to counterattack, her counterattacking is more useful than Makalov's is.

. . . . Later, Astrid gains exp twice as fast, or more--she kills much more often--, and then promotes.

17 Makalov, steel sword, C Astrid: 20.8 atk, 14.4 AS, 107.2 hit, 4.8 crit - - 43.6 avo, 34.2 hp, 13.2 def, 3.4 res, 9.8 critavo - - 8 move

20/1 Astrid, steel axe, C Makalov: 26.6 atk, 19.9 AS, 114.4 hit, 8.9 crit - - 55.4 avo, 33.6 hp, 13.7 def, 10.7 res, 10.6 critavo - - 9 move

. . . . lulz, the numbers speak for themselves. Also Astrid has full-blown 1-2 range, while still having more atk, and better defenses to go with it. Also 1 more move, etc. A bit later, after getting creamed for 4 levels, Makalov promotes as well. Meanwhile, Astrid's Paragon continued to hax.

20/1 Makalov, steel axe, B Astrid: 27.5 atk, 17.9 AS, 107.5 hit, 6.5 crit - - 56.3 avo, 39.0 hp, 17.5 def, 8.0 res, 10.5 critavo

20/7 Astrid, steel axe, B Makalov: 29.0 atk, 22.9 AS, 126.4 hit, 10.6 crit - - 68.8 avo, 36.3 hp, 16.5 def, 13.2 res, 13.0 critavo

. . . . Ouch, that hit loss is pretty bad. Even more so when using 1-2 range weapons. And Astrid has a huge power advantage against wyverns and ravens. Then Astrid still has that exclusive access to high end bows. She pwns even harder than normal vs laguz, which are generally the hardest things to kill, still gets free crits, and now also has massive pwn in the brave bow whenever desired. Astrid clearly rapes on offense, as she has forever. On defense? There she wins as well. 68 avoid is quite good when backed up by solid concrete defenses. And a 5 res lead is nothing to scoff at either. All Makalov has is 1 def and 3 hp.

. . . . Makalov isn't gaining any significant ground for a long time. His str won't pass Astrid's until after her level caps, and not much else grows faster. Higher def/hp, but he always loses in avoid and res, so he's not winning defenses. Maybe if and when he approaches max level, he wins, but that's it. He's not getting many more level ups in after Astrid caps unless your team size is small, leaving multiple open unit slots in each chapter and such. Not that he would pull out a win even if he did manage to win by a significant margin late game, with him being whipped so badly the rest of the game.

[Zkirsche]

Mak, iron sword: 15.7 atk, 12.4 AS, 115.6 hit, 4.0 crit - - 33.6 avo, 31.8 hp, 11.4 def, 2.6 res, 8.8 critavo

steel sword: 18.7 atk, 11.1 AS, 100.6 hit, 4.0 crit - - 31.0 avo

Astrid, steel bow: 20.2 atk, 15.9 AS, 104.6 hit, 6.3 crit - - 40.0 avo, 25.9 hp, 8.9 def, 7.2 res, 8.2 critavo

No forge = lol. The only real way to use these units is by giving them forges. So, voila, here are there new attack stats:

Level 13/0 Mak, steel sword forge: 23.7 Atk, 12.4 AS, 125.6 Hit – 33.6 Avo

Level 14/0 Astrid, steel bow forge: 25.2 Atk, 15.9 AS, 129.6 hit

Astrid is clearly dominating in offense. I don't think I need to go into that. Also, Astrid has exclusive access to killer bows, which are very helpful when unable to one-round without a crit.

Astrid only has exclusive access to bows until Kieran promotes, since we can give Kieran bows to give him better 2-range options. Plus, if we forge a tome for Soren/Rhys, we might run low on funds. Heck, normal crit forges, which work well when training units like Neph, Zihark and Marcia are also quite expensive – it costs 5964 gold to forge a max mt, max crit steel lance forge, for example. That’s over ¼ of your funds taht you get in chapter 9, and tehse cna easily build up. Killer bows are worth more than your average steel weapon. Add this to the fact that killer bows only have 15 uses and you shoudl realise that killer bow usage is not an advantage over Mak, especially as Mak has access to a killer of his own.

Contrary to what the above stats say, Mak has a higher chance of having 13 AS than 12 because after 3 level up’s with the KW he has a 0.8^3% chance of having 13 AS, or 51.2%. Thus, I’ll treat his AS as 13, though there is a possibility that he has 12AS, this is far less common than scenario’s that have Mak at 13 AS. Using thier average Atk and AS (Rounded to nearest whole, Mak has 13 AS), I counted 19/38 enemies that they both RKO the same – 50%. That’s 50% they tie, 50% Astrid wins. Looks like a win for Astrid, right?

Astrid has no enemy phase. Zilch. Mak has an enemy phase. Can he be attacked on the enemy phase? Lessee:

2x Soldier: 16 atk

5x Myrmidon: 19 atk

2x Knight: 17 atk

The solider 6RKO, the myrmidons 4RKO and the knight 5RKO’s. And these enemies only have 63-73 displayed on Mak. Mak can easily face 1-2 enemies on the enemy phase after attacking on the player phase. Because of this, I’m inclined to say Mak wins offensive, as dealing 3 enemies 50% damage > dealing 1 enemy 100% damage.

Plus, there are a lot of healers by this point (The sages should have been sealed, Mist and Rhys, too) meaning that being healed is less of a negative. Which means I’m inclined to say Makalov > Astrid at join time due to better offence and durabiltiy mattering less.

Of course, dishing out poor damage is better than dishing out no damage, right?

Indeed, even if Astrid isn’t attacked, she still deals 0 damage on the enemy phase, which is inferier to Mak dealing 10+ damage.

As for the garbage offence, he ~2RKO’s with a forge. Besides, I’ll be more inclined to bring a unit who can attack on both phases than just one, meaning Astrid builds up negative utility too.

Meanwhile, against bows and mages and other 1-2 rangers, Astrid can counterattack while Makalov cannot, and Astrid has one of the strongest ranged offenses on the team.

They can also counter attack her, which is cutting into her poor durability. Besides, these enemies make a minority and Mak’s enemy phase existance is overall more important.

17 Makalov, steel sword, C Astrid:

I’d argue that he’s a higher level than this. Having an enemy phase matters quite a bit in levelling up.

However, he still gets wtfraeped But this is 1-2 chapters, at best.

20/7 Astrid, steel axe, B Makalov:

More like 20/5 Astrid, for above reasoning. Enemy phase matters. Plus, Mak can easily get 1 use with the knight band, boosting his Atk to 27.55, which is more likely to be 28 than 27, and his def to 17.55, which is likely to be 18. Also, you’ve only given Mak 3 levels with the KW, but 6/11 levels with it is much more appropriate because not many actually want it by that point (Gatrie and Brom may be used, everyone else is not likely to have AS issues at this point:

20/5 Astrid, steel axe, ‘B’ Makalov: 35 HP, 28 Atk, 22 AS, 66 Avo, 16 Def, 13 Res, 10 Crit

20/1 Makalov, steel axe, ‘B’ Astrid: 39 HP, 28 Atk, 19 AS, 59.5 Avo, 18 Def, 8 Res, 7 Crit

Defensively, 4 HP/2 Def are much bigger leads than 6.5 Avo and 5 Res. Why? Mages are rare, and 6.5 avo is a very minor lead indeed.

Offensively, Mak’s superier durability gives him more enemy phase, which is much more important than any negligible crit lead and a superfluous AS lead that Astrid holds over Makalov.

I’ve reached the limit, so I’ll save endgame for later.

[Reikken]

You have a grand total of 4 steel forges to spread over your entire team for ch 14, 15, 16, 17.1, 17.2, 17.3, 17.4. And the only way to use Makalov is to give him a forge? lulz. On the contrary, assuming a forge = lol.

Not only that, but also his offense is utter garbage without one, so he'll have to be using it just about every time, which is bad news when it has only 35 uses.

Then Astrid's offense with a normal steel bow is similar to Makalov's with forge. She has 3.5 less atk and 3.5 more spd. So Makalov uses up an extremely valuable resource (one-rounding is extremely difficult at this point, there are only 4 possible so far, and you have that long ch 17 coming up), and he still loses offense (he only ~ties for 35 swings...and Astrid still has killer, laguz, etc bows, and Astrid levels faster). Or you can opt to give Astrid a forge as well and have her offense be amazing. Two options, both of which have their merits, and both of which beat Makalov.

A killer bow is worth only 35g per use to sell. That's very little. How little? That's only 15 more per use than it costs to buy a steel sword (A steel sword is 20 per use in the first place). Or crit lance forges? It's apparently 3654 for the total addition to max crit on a lance, and the last addition (at least for steel sword) is ~50% higher than the first, so the cost for it should be about 1460. The total amount of money you get for selling all 3 killer bows is 1575. So basically, selling all your killer bows lets you afford an extra 3.2 crit on one of your 35 use steel lances. Incredible. So much for that. Selling bows is worthless.

Yes, Makalov has access to killing edges, but every time he uses one, he deprives other units of using it, like Ike, Stefan, Zihark. Even Mist. So overall, it's not worth much.

Kieran with bows on promotion? Only half the time. Lances are arguably a better option as an iron lance is the best against swordmasters, the only things he wouldn't be using a steel axe against. Even if/when he does take bows, he starts with E. He needs to use a loliron bow enough to get D and then a steel bow enough to get C before he can use a killer bow. By then you likely can buy silver axes, so there wouldn't be much reason for him to use a killer bow with its 7 less mt. So no, Astrid's really the only one using them, barring the use of Rofl or something.

Contrary to what the above stats say, Mak has a higher chance of having 13 AS than 12 . .

While having 13 AS is the highest chance for any one possibility, he also can have 12, 11, or even 10 AS. He'll have 13 on fixed mode due to his 70 base spd exp, but he has 13 only half the time on random, and the other half of the time, he has 11 or 12. And he has a 0% chance of having higher. Also, averages do not round. Makalov has X chance of having Y atk. Or on fixed mode, he has 0 base str exp, so cut off the decimal part of the average to get his atk. ie round down, rather than the rounding up that you undoubtedly did.

So your analysis is inaccurate (biased in Makalov's favor).

*stuff about counterattacks*

A typical Makalov can't one-round anything that he can counterattack, even with a forge. Myrmidons are too fast. Fighters have too much hp. Soldiers have too much def/WTA. Knights are obvious. Archers and mages he can't counter. and are usually also too fast. So you leave Kieran or someone without a forge and therefore unable to one-round much, and you also have Makalov counterattack and not kill.

Or you could do something like this: Give Kieran a forged steel axe, making him a beast; one round that fighter, soldier, whatever on the counterattack, and then have Astrid one-round that myrmidon or something with a normal steel bow, and then move to the edge of that mage's range, take a hit to her rather nice res, and then one-round it on the counterattack. Or take a killer bow to something like a fighter or a promoted enemy or one of those hard-to-kill cavaliers, and score a ORK a bit over half the time.

winner: Astrid

also..

Plus, there are a lot of healers by this point (The sages should have been sealed, Mist and Rhys, too) meaning that being healed is less of a negative.

You may have used a seal on someone else or not used a sage at all; they're still not high tier or anything. Either way, a promoted staffer having to heal means not being able to attack. And unlike Astrid, when Makalov has taken a lot of damage and has low hp, he has to hold back until he gets healed.

They can also counter attack her, which is cutting into her poor durability.

First of all, they're mostly mages or 1-2 range weapon users, which hit her high res or are weak and inaccurate, respectively. Archers are the strongest, and even those have low str. Considering that, combined with her great ability to carry on killing things and whatnot on player phase even if she has 1 hp, she's better off in counterattacking than Makalov even defensively.

Yes, the enemies that Astrid counterattacks may be less common, but the units you have that are any good at countering them are much less common. You have like Titania, and that's it. Whereas you have tons of units that excel at melee. Kieran, Ike, Boyd, Stefan, Muarim, Titania again, etc. Astrid is a much more valuable/useful asset than Makalov.

I’d argue that he’s a higher level than this. Having an enemy phase matters quite a bit in levelling up.

Astrid's enemy phase > Makalov's. Also, actually getting kills matters much more for leveling.

For the rest, a promoted Astrid's enemy phase is wtfamazing. She can counterattack either 1 range or 2 range and do either extremely well, or even do both at the same time. So your "above reasoning" would actually imply Astrid being a higher level rather than lower.

And again, averages do not round, so +0.05 avg str/def means next to nothing. And on fixed mode, they effectively round down, no matter how high that decimal on the end of the average is. Well, for def, he has 35 base exp, so a .65+ effectively rounds up. But other than that, no.

So Makalov's 1 def lead is garbage. 1.5 would be meh, too. 2, too, in the face of Astrid's avo lead. You seriously underestimate the power of avoid that's paired with decent concrete defenses. I'll show you. In a second. If I have space. First, I must refute your KW stuffs.

Everyone else not likely to have AS issues? Everyone wants more spd. While unpromoted, everyone that can use the KW has major AS issues, what with meh spd and then also AS loss from steel up until almost to lv 20, but even once promoted, Kieran's average spd at 20/1 is 17.2. The paladins running around in ch 17, for instance, have 14 spd at least. Then even if manages to get enough spd to double, they're hard to 2HK, so having even more spd so he can double with a pole axe = win. And then on random mode, you can easily be down in spd by a point or two. Oscar is slower than Kieran. Even if there weren't any spd issues on anyone after promotion, that would be very few levels left for Makalov to KW before now anyway. Like what, 1? since the KW doesn't help for the 20 -> promotion level up. And then of course, with Gatrie/Brom/Devdan, they need as much KW action as they can possibly get forever. Also, Astrid would be getting more KW levels than Makalov if either were to get any, since she levels more often and is more able to trade while still attacking due to range (bows have twice as many places to attack from as melee, and then once she promotes and gets melee as well...).

k, I would make a chance of death list for Makalov and Astrid, but I'm low on space, and it basically boils down to lolFE9paladins (ie invincibility for both). like 17 attacks before 10% chance of death, 10 before 1%, etc.