Xort Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I remember when Smash Bros. Brawl came out, and people started getting really into it. I did too - winning fights was an issue of strategically choosing your moves, comboing, and anticipating your opponent’s reaction - and hey, it’s a fun fighting game. Then, some people REALLY got into it. These people started to devise these things called “tiers”. The most dedicated and knowledgeable gamers decided to get together - on Smashboards, I believe - and separate the fighters in this game into tiers; high tiers for the best fighters, low tiers for the worst, in between, you all get the idea. This went beyond personal opinion; in fact, personal opinion was verboten. This was to be a scientific, God-approved grouping of video game characters into iron-clad definitions of their worth. As a statistical exercise, or something for a beginner, it's something to read and maybe even be entertained by. As something for a serious, competitive player, this sparked discussion regarding their mains, and how they matched up against other characters, helping them to better their play styles. One of the things that people like to do with tier lists is debate them. "Well, no, fighter X, I don't think, is better than fighter Y because of A, B and C". Fortunately, these tier lists were decided by those widely regarded as the best Smashers in the world, and discussion of such was limited to an exclusive board, thus ensuring that only the best would decide the lists. This usually led to discussions outside of the SBR about character matchups and whatnot, all of which were a great help to those truly interested in bettering their game. Most of you could see the inevitable result coming, even if you weren't there: a great increase in the quantity and quality of discussion. As a competitive player myself, this was extremely helpful; after all, what is more useful for making my main better than organized, civil discussion over the characters? However, these tier lists had existed long before Brawl; there were lists for nearly every mainstream fighting game in existence, and even lists for an SRPG called Fire Emblem. By this point, tier lists had already been providing great sources of discussion and entertainment. It gave people who wanted to statistically analyze each game a chance to do so, and debate with one another, resulting in entertainment for those involved in the debate and those reading it. What's that? You swear that Nino in FE7 is awesome because she has epic growths? Well, she does have good growths, but by this point you’ve had every other mage in the game long enough to be at a decent level with good stats and supports. She does end up good, but she just doesn’t compare due to availability issues. Now, if you like using her, fine, but don’t go about telling people that she’s awesome. She just isn’t. As I was frequenting FEU at this time, I loved this trend, and made a decision to get involved. Of course, I was kinda dumb at first. However, the people who knew what they were doing made sure to tell me I was wrong, and why, which helped me learn more about this fascinating thing. Well, long story short, FEU is now TU, and it‘s pretty dead. However, looking around here, I notice that tier list discussion is pretty active. That‘s wonderful; these 10 or so topics were the source of lots of discussion and the people were all very intelligent, not to mention pretty cool guys. However, some people just aren‘t content to let us discuss tiers in a thread specifically about tiers. A thread was made bashing them, for no apparent reason other than a personal dislike, and people began to agree. Of course, debaters were quick to try and defend themselves, but they couldn’t make much progress due to the pig-headedness and arrogance of certain members. I know that some of you click on a tier list not quite realizing what the deal is, and post an incorrect statement, and that when the people there tell you what is wrong with your post you take offense and assume they’re elitist bastards. Yes, I know that you don’t like tiers. Now, can you finally stop making a big deal about them and just avoid these topics you so vehemently hate? No? OK, I'll go back to the debate forum and begin enjoying myself aga- oh, wait. I see two problems, and it's inherent in this, and all other games that have diehard niche fanbases like this: the fan boys are unwilling to accept the fact that their favorite character just might not be the best in the game, and this leads to a general misguided opinion about the lists. You know... Intellectual discussion? That's right, there’s more to it than just raw stats! And despite archetypes, there are some genuinely good characters! I'm a Seth fan, and trust me, very little of that has to do with the advantages of using him over Franz. I also really like Joshua, though most of that is because he’s got a badass hat. Yes, we’re willing to let people like sub-par characters… Just something to consider after reading this massive missive: don’t get butthurt because your characters aren’t high tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameAtAll Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I approve of this topic. I expect the legions to come though. They will come, mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Awesome is a synonym for YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardan Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This topic is of the highest quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This is pretty neato bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This topic is top tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This topic is better than Sedgar and Wolf combined. =) Really, I've been following the Bashing of Tier Lists here lately, and this topic here states the absolute truth. Some people like tiers, some don't, so what's the deal with bashing them all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I rate this parody 8/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I don't care if I get whacked with the image macro rule, it was worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I rate this 11/10. Not even Sety can match to this topic's awesomeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Bottom tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Now, if you like using her, fine, but don’t go about telling people that she’s awesome. She just isn’t. How dare you Internet Court imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergeshwan Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I agree with this topic. I may be a fail debater, but those topics have improved my strategy. And they're fun to read too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 this is where fads take hold and its poisoned idiots roam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xort Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 No need to be so harsh, brah. I wanted to make a topic representing the other side of the argument, and I decided that going for the lols was the best approach. If you dun like it, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyosua Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Tier lists are generally based purely on statistics. Situational advantages are usually not taken into consideration, and therefore tier lists become baised against characters that while they may have subpar stats, become useful because of the number of times their situational advantages become needed. Thus these things should all be taken with a grain of salt. The only real thing that should be paid attention to, is the skill of the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Actually, situational advantages are taken heavily into consideration, if not moreso than stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameAtAll Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Tier lists are generally based purely on statistics. If that were the case, Est wouldn't be as low as she is. >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyosua Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I disagree. But whatever, those are my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) All Jeigans would drop if it was just stats >_>. It USED to be about stats, that's why Nino was thought to be one of the best characters in FE7. The past is hilarious... "Axes are shit because you don't always see 100 hit with them. SKL, SPD and LCK are the most important stats. Growths are everything." Edited July 22, 2009 by Sirius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It's true. We can't just look at character stats and see who has the bigger numbers, we have to know what enemies they fight, level design they are in, and how helpful they are in fighting these enemies. This all results in whoever has the best situational advantages. On paper, Est is an amazing unit. Even her base stats aren't that bad compared to other units of her level, and has excellent growths, but her situation when she actually comes is so poor that she can't really make use of these strengths without heavy abuse, so she's mostly limited to chip damage and triangle attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Tier lists are generally based purely on statistics. Situational advantages are usually not taken into consideration, and therefore tier lists become baised against characters that while they may have subpar stats, become useful because of the number of times their situational advantages become needed. Thus these things should all be taken with a grain of salt. The only real thing that should be paid attention to, is the skill of the player. And where is that defined? Out tiers take into consideration everything that a character can do to help beat the game as efficiently and painlessly as possible. Obviously statistics are the biggest point, but situational advantages are also very important. For example, why do you think Flying units often get rated highly, despite occasionally being worse statistically? It's because flight allows them a bunch of advantages a normal infantry unit doesn't have. They can move farther, allowing them to face more enemies in combat. In some games they can move again (Canto), which allows better positioning for trading or for Enemy Phase. They are also very often better at Rescuing units, which can be a quick save for a unit that got unlucky, and since Canto always applies with Rescuing as far as I know, the ability is magnified further. They can also move freely over terrain that other units might not be able to traverse at all, further magnifying the fact they can move farther already. None of that even has to do with statistics at all, and yet they are big advantages virtually every flier has over other units. There are other unique unit types as well, of course, and they get special points too. Thieves, Dancers/Herons, Healers, etc. It all depends on how much easier they make the game to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xort Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Also, if tier list looked purely at stats, Titania would be much lower than she is in FE9. She still ends up good, but not near as good as plenty of other people. As it is, we now realize she's pretty much necessary in order to get max BEXP on early stages, and her offense and defense never fall too far behind everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyosua Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hmm. Maybe things have changed since I last looked at tiers. Granted, I haven't paid attention to them since at least 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xort Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 That would explain it :P I'm still having trouble getting used to the fact that FE7 tiers are moving away from ranked runs. It's just such an alien concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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