Crystal Shards Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 [Article here] Highway-safety advocates are prodding Congress to mandate that backseat passengers buckle up, igniting anew the persistent tension between government regulation and individual rights. The initiative—which would reduce federal highway funding to states that don’t require rear seat belts—has met resistance from those who say that seat-belt laws should be left to the states and that the federal government shouldn’t impose “nanny state” regulations on passengers. Jim Baxter, president of the National Motorists Association, notes that all states already require young children to wear rear seat restraints. Adults, he says, should be allowed to decide for themselves. “What started out as a program to encourage the use of seat belts is becoming a flat-out mandate,” Baxter says. “I don’t believe it would result in any improvement in highway safety.” A recent study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) shows that 85% of rear-seat passengers wore seat belts in the 20 states with laws requiring their use. In states without such laws, the number was 66%. An earlier NHTSA study found that rear belts greatly reduce fatalities in crashes, particularly those involving passenger vans and sport utility vehicles. Lowell Porter, vice chair of the Governors Highway Safety Association, believes states should decide for themselves but says society has a stake in making highways safer: “You always get this huge pushback on individual rights and people saying the government shouldn’t be telling me how to run my business. But when people get injured, the costs are not borne solely by the individual. They are borne by the public.” I can see why the government would want to impose such a law, but I don't really think that it'll help anything. The only law I think I'd support was one that required children to have seat belts on, and then leave it up to adults to do what they want (even though 18 is an arbitrary age designating adulthood, but that's another discussion entirely). To me the problem isn't wearing seat belts, it's reckless driving: speeding, swerving, driving drunk, unsafe passes, passing in no passing zones, crap like that. I would almost bet that bad driving habits and not things like weather and car malfunctions are the main reason people get into accidents. When you don't wear a seat belt, you're endangering yourself. When you drive like an idiot, however, you're endangering everyone on that road, which happens to include you. Therein lies a huge difference. But we also know that children learn from role models, most notably, parents. If the parents don't wear the seat belts, how can we really expect the children to pick up that good habit? And if someone dies, there's a cost not only to the family but also to society: that's one less worker, or future worker if it's a child that dies. And on a small scale that's no big deal but on a larger scale it could pose a problem... I mean not wearing a seat belt is a stupid reason to be dead. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quanta Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Unless someone can come up with some sort of good reason you shouldn't be wearing a seat belt, I'm kind of inclined in favor of laws that require seat belts. Mostly because the cost of someone's injury is not borne by them alone. The thing is, I can't really think of much you gain by not wearing a seat belt, whereas I see a lot of cost for everyone else sometimes if you fail to wear a seat belt. On the other hand, I feel it would be preferable if someone could come up with an equally effective way to get people to wear seat belts without making it a law, although I can't think of anything myself. At the very least, I would hope that if people are allowed to not wear a seat belt, that this can be reflected in things like insurance premiums and payments. I feel like if you get flung out the windshield because you didn't have a seatbelt, your insurance shouldn't have to cover your injuries. Of course, this is up to the insurer technically, but I don't really know whether or not the government allows this sort of clause in car insurance contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Click-it, or ticket-it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitherion Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Click-it, or ticket-it. Are we just quoting arbitrary slogans now? Neat. NO GLOVE, NO LOVE! And as far as the topic goes, the government realistically should have no control over whether adults wear seatbelts. Pretty much everyone I know does, but if someone wants to make themselves more likely to be hurt, more power to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Are we just quoting arbitrary slogans now? Neat. No, it was a slogan our area has to promote wearing seatbelts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 No, it was a slogan our area has to promote wearing seatbelts. And, funnily enough, didn't tell us anything at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitherion Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 No, it was a slogan our area has to promote wearing seatbelts. So yes, you're quoting an arbitrary slogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The slogan expresses the safety and concern of our neighborhood's citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) The slogan expresses the safety and concern of our neighborhood's citizens. But it doesn't tell me what YOU think or why you think that way, your experiences, etc. This is Serious DISCUSSION, not Far From the Forest. Post something of substance or get out. Edited August 2, 2009 by Crystal Shards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quanta Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) but if someone wants to make themselves more likely to be hurt, more power to them. Normally, I'd be fine with this sort of philosophy, but this is one of the few more clear-cut cases I can think of where A) there isn't really any valid reason to increase the risk to yourself, B) this isn't going to lead to some sort of illegal alternative that's worse than not buckling up, C) other people's stupidity clearly and directly translates into wasted resources and cash for everybody else, and D) I would wager the cost of enforcement of this sort of thing is pretty negligible since cops must already be around to give out speeding tickets and such (and since any individual cop can choose when necessary between arresting somebody speeding or somebody not buckled up, it doesn't even strike me as having any significant effect in terms of opportunity cost). Edited August 2, 2009 by quanta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Are we just quoting arbitrary slogans now? Neat. NO GLOVE, NO LOVE! And as far as the topic goes, the government realistically should have no control over whether adults wear seatbelts. Pretty much everyone I know does, but if someone wants to make themselves more likely to be hurt, more power to them. But this isn't a situation about just them. They can hurt others indirectly too. Like Crystal Shards said, kids pick on their parents habits. Now all of a sudden it's not about just the adult, it's also about whoever he/she influences. WHOEVER HE/SHE INFLUENCES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I pretty much think children should have to wear seatbelts, for the obvious reason, which is that they aren't really experienced enough to make proper decisions about these things themselves, so it's somewhat silly to say they can do whatever they want. Other than that, I'm kind of in the middle here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitherion Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 But this isn't a situation about just them. They can hurt others indirectly too. Like Crystal Shards said, kids pick on their parents habits. Now all of a sudden it's not about just the adult, it's also about whoever he/she influences. WHOEVER HE/SHE INFLUENCES. Thank you for typing it in all caps afterwards just in case I hadn't seen it the first time, I've been incapable of reading things in normal case recently. And obviously since there's no debate about children having to wear seatbelts that's not a huge issue; admittedly, children do pick up on habits, but that doesn't mean that all adults should have to wear them if they don't want to if they don't even have children. IF THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE CHILDREN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 But it doesn't tell me what YOU think or why you think that way, your experiences, etc. This is Serious DISCUSSION, not Far From the Forest. Post something of substance or get out. Kids have to wear seatbelts. Adults should too. Obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) Things as heavy as full-grown adults become projectiles when they aren't strapped down and a stop is forced at high speeds. While I don't have statistics to type at anybody, people without belts have been the cause of death for others with belts on riding in the same car because they bounced around inside the car too much. Regardless of whether the law gets passed, I know I'm always going to make people buckle up. Edited August 3, 2009 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Kids have to wear seatbelts. Adults should too. Obvious. Pray tell, how is it obvious? Because you said so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) Thank you for typing it in all caps afterwards just in case I hadn't seen it the first time, I've been incapable of reading things in normal case recently. And obviously since there's no debate about children having to wear seatbelts that's not a huge issue; admittedly, children do pick up on habits, but that doesn't mean that all adults should have to wear them if they don't want to if they don't even have children. IF THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE CHILDREN. Jeez, don't get so worked up over it. It's just caps. <_< I'm pretty sure you've heard of having 'emphasis' before... A role model doesn't have to be a parent. It can be an uncle, aunt, or anybody the child looks up to. An eighteen year-old who just got his first car is probably going to drive out with his friends. If they aren't required to wear seat belts, and they have the choice whether to wear it or not doesn't only hurt them, it hurts society too. If they were to die, or become injured, anyway (I'm obviously talking about reckless driving, you know, the number one killer of teens?). A law that keeps a child safe should have the same affect on an adult to keep the adult safe. Seat belts laws should be made to ensure as much safety as possible to the entire party inside the car, not just the child(ren). Edited August 3, 2009 by Old Snake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Pray tell, how is it obvious? Because you said so? No, because it's good to have fatal accidents opposed to surviving because of seatbelts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 No, because it's good to have fatal accidents opposed to surviving because of seatbelts! Talking about laws here, not seat belts themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 The law makes the seatbelts mandatory. The people have to wear them. They get in an accident. They survive because of the seatbelt! The law does not make seatbelts mandatory. Some people wear them. Some don't. They get in accident. The people who didn't have a higher chance of dying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 The law makes the seatbelts mandatory. The people have to wear them. They get in an accident. They survive because of the seatbelt! The law does not make seatbelts mandatory. Some people wear them. Some don't. They get in accident. The people who didn't have a higher chance of dying! Thank you for finally showing some semblance of logic instead of spouting off useless crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) Thank you for finally showing some semblance of logic instead of spouting off useless crap. Oh, it was there, I just had to point it out and explain. I keep forgetting inference skills on internet forums suck Edited August 3, 2009 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Oh, it was there, I just had to point it out and explain. I keep forgetting inference skills on internet forums suck I can infer just fine. But again, this isn't FFtF, and as such, stupid one-liners from safety PSAs don't further the discussion. Either post like you have a brain or don't post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Thank you for finally showing some semblance of logic instead of spouting off useless crap. I can infer just fine. But again, this isn't FFtF, and as such, stupid one-liners from safety PSAs don't further the discussion. Either post like you have a brain or don't post. Inconsistency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Shards Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Inconsistency? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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