FE9 Tier list v3

[Zkirsche]

Indeed, late game Soren has ~90 avo (see my debate with Tino). Which isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, and those stats didn't account for everything, like Largo not getting A Muarim/B Tauroneo and low Biorythm for avoid based units. And then of course, I had mentioned Reyson and our other healers, who aren't immune to attacks themselves.

Ironically, the only units who will ever have a pressing need to be healed are healers themselves (Soren/Ilyana/Tormod/Rhys). Therefore, these are the types of units that Elincia is helping offensively (eg/ Tormod being able to take 2 E. phase counters instead of 1).

This isn’t a big deal for a few reasons. First, these characters will not face player phase counters 90% of the time. Usually a level has about 1/3 of enemies that are ranged, but most of those are either snipers (can be attacked at 1 range) or sages (do piddly damage to your own sages/bishops). Second, Tormod aside, their enemy phases are innately limited by their low movement. Finally, a lot of the playable healers aren’t even that impressive offensively. Rhys and Ilyana have some pretty serious AS issues, particularly if they promote early. Then Tormod has some offensive difficulties due to being supremely underlevelled (lol at lv 7/0 in C16). What’s the point of increasing Rhys’ enemy phase when he’s sub-par on offence? I could’ve just kept him on the backlines spamming physics and my team would probably be better off.

Just replace Elincia with Mist. As for Reyson, after vigoring units, said units can clear out the area of enemies and protect Reyson. Or we can just give him shade. Meh, Largo's unlikely to be fielded himself, it just shows how a unit that is considered to lack durability can have it by endgame.

I think what Reikken means is that healing is more important to the team than Thieving, especially earlier on when our units aren't highly durable.

Again, Volke helps out other unit's durability by fetching staves, elixers and def-boosting items. And he also aids offence, too. And since units aren't reliably ORKO'ing either, they could use the offensive boost.

Edited September 2, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

As for Reyson, after vigoring units, said units can clear out the area of enemies and protect Reyson.

I never said we couldn't protect him. But a simple slip-up can put him in enemy range, and Volke isn't the one that's going to save him.

Again, Volke helps out other unit's durability by fetching staves, elixers and def-boosting items. And he also aids offence, too. And since units aren't reliably ORKO'ing either, they could use the offensive boost.

The staves aren't as significant as you think, since our healers (especially Mist) are adequate at their job without said staves. Basically, if their ability really relied on the staves he steals, that would be a good point, but that isn't the case.

Elixirs again? What about staves >>> self-healing did you miss? And Chest Keys >>> self healing relatively as well.

Tino already debunked the Def boosting items thing, since Mist's supports do better than that. His offense is lol until promotion, and then Mist wins it anyway.

[Zkirsche]

I never said we couldn't protect him. But a simple slip-up can put him in enemy range, and Volke isn't the one that's going to save him.

Since when did we count player stupidity for efficient runthroughs? See Int on the matter.

The staves aren't as significant as you think, since our healers (especially Mist) are adequate at their job without said staves. Basically, if their ability really relied on the staves he steals, that would be a good point, but that isn't the case.

Really? Wow, with multiple paths in many a chapter (17-2, 17-3, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27 and endgame all come to mind), I thought physics might come in handy so that our healers can heal them from across the map. I guess not. [/sarcasm]

Elixirs again? What about staves >>> self-healing did you miss? And Chest Keys >>> self healing relatively as well.

What part of no they aren't did YOU miss?

There's no difference, using a self-healing item just means the unit that the ally would've attacked on the player phase would attack him/her on the enemy phase. It does nothing to efficiency. Chest keys, however, force untis out of their way to open chests, which reduces tehir enemy phase action and efficiency. So no, self healing >>> using chest keys relatively as well.

Tino already debunked the Def boosting items thing, since Mist's supports do better than that.

I guess you missed this:

Then there's the energy drop for +2 atk, a peedwing for + 2 Spd (which mist doesn't give anyone), +2 hit/avo from the ashera icon and +2 mov from boots. Considering all these provisions are definite and works 100% of the time, are not limited to certain characters so are impossible to have superfluous bonuses (read: giving Jill a durability bonuses lategame), don't limit where units go, can't be replaced by a support (aka, other support pairings can also help units, perhaps not as much, but definitely shrink the gap. +2 mov cannot be replaced by any support) and don't even have to be used (yay at getting 4000 gold).

In otherwords, they're much better.

His offense is lol until promotion, and then Mist wins it anyway.

His offence is still a positive. By the time Mist promotes, her healing utility is already starting to not matter as much, and her combat is vastly inferier to everyone else's. Mist has nothing to fall back on lategame. Volke does: thieving. Which is always useful.

[Tino]

And you missed this.

[Florete]

Since when did we count player stupidity for efficient runthroughs? See Int on the matter.

We don't, but you're missing the point. Ranged enemies exist. And what if Reyson has to move too far to Vigor and can't mvoe back? Mist is insurance against these kinds of problems, Volke is not.

Really? Wow, with multiple paths in many a chapter (17-2, 17-3, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27 and endgame all come to mind), I thought physics might come in handy so that our healers can heal them from across the map. I guess not. [/sarcasm]

Come in handy, yes. Again, you missed the point. My healers, especially Mist, are already sufficient without the Physics he grabs us (We can get a few without him). Having them is nice, but I can get by fine without them.

What part of no they aren't did YOU miss?

The part where you're wrong?

There's no difference, using a self-healing item just means the unit that the ally would've attacked on the player phase would attack him/her on the enemy phase.

Eh what? Healing with a staff means that PC can kill on the player phase, which means it can't attack anyone on the enemy phase and might also mean my PC doesn't take an attack from it at all, and if that PC has Canto, can also move farther. Enemies attack anyone within range. It sounds like you're fishing for arguments at this point, since it's widely known and agreed that staves > self healing.

It does nothing to efficiency. Chest keys, however, force untis out of their way to open chests, which reduces tehir enemy phase action and efficiency. So no, self healing >>> using chest keys relatively as well.

I can deploy anyone to use a Chest Key just like Volke. In fact, if I have the required number of Keys, it's better to do so if I didn't use someone like Makalov or Lethe that has more movement than him, since they might be able to reach them faster.

I guess you missed this:

Then there's the energy drop for +2 atk, a peedwing for + 2 Spd (which mist doesn't give anyone), +2 hit/avo from the ashera icon and +2 mov from boots. Considering all these provisions are definite and works 100% of the time, are not limited to certain characters so are impossible to have superfluous bonuses (read: giving Jill a durability bonuses lategame), don't limit where units go, can't be replaced by a support (aka, other support pairings can also help units, perhaps not as much, but definitely shrink the gap. +2 mov cannot be replaced by any support) and don't even have to be used (yay at getting 4000 gold).

In otherwords, they're much better.

I'll just quote Reikken.

The problem with those stat ups is that none of them are exclusive to Volke. Even if you throw out Sothe. But then Sothe does exist (and is being severely underrated*). Mist's supports, however, are exclusive to Mist.

His offence is still a positive. By the time Mist promotes, her healing utility is already starting to not matter as much, and her combat is vastly inferier to everyone else's. Mist has nothing to fall back on lategame. Volke does: thieving. Which is always useful.

His offense might be considered a positive when he's already assumed on the map for thievery, but then it's still minimal because it sucks, and, well, he's thieving for a lot of the map. So it's still lol.

And lol at thieving being always useful. By the time late game comes around, most of the stuff he can get is redundant because our units are already awesome enough as you've shown and seen.

Mist's combat isn't even that much worse anyway. Vykan showed it a while back, but she's generally 1-2RKOing, which isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination. And, as previously stated, she's a perfect Mage/Sage killer.

[Shadow Mir]

the longsword is great against pallys, who start appearing en mass in chapter 17.

Actually... the longsword has a mere 6 Mt (Which is 12 effective Mt). And IIRC, most Horse Knights use lances, dropping that to 10 effective Mt, which is barely better than a Steel weapon.

[Reikken]

Here we go with the "needing" thing.

lol nope, you got it entirely wrong

By "need", I meant that it's actually useful. Or rather, that it's needed in order to proceed more efficiently. Certainly you don't need Titania to beat the game, but you're going to be much less efficient without her, so in order to beat the game efficiently, you do need her. K, now read it again now that I've better explained myself.

[Dat Nick]

Actually... the longsword has a mere 6 Mt (Which is 12 effective Mt). And IIRC, most Horse Knights use lances, dropping that to 10 effective Mt, which is barely better than a Steel weapon.

Isn't the -1 for WTD taken after effective damage calculation?

[Shadow Mir]

Actually... the longsword has a mere 6 Mt (Which is 12 effective Mt). And IIRC, most Horse Knights use lances, dropping that to 10 effective Mt, which is barely better than a Steel weapon.

Isn't the -1 for WTD taken after effective damage calculation?

Actually, I think it's before effective damage is taken into account. In other words, the Longsword has only 5 MT with WTD, which doubles with effective damage.

[NinjaMonkey]

The problem with comparing Mist to everyone else in combat is that she is the hardest unit to get to level 20.

wut? Healers are extremely easy to level

Let's see: Mist gets 11 or so, exp every time she heals (22 with a Physic staff). Everyone else gets 20-30 exp attacking/killing enemies.

Nope, I'm not seeing it...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Actually... the longsword has a mere 6 Mt (Which is 12 effective Mt). And IIRC, most Horse Knights use lances, dropping that to 10 effective Mt, which is barely better than a Steel weapon.

Isn't the -1 for WTD taken after effective damage calculation?

Actually, I think it's before effective damage is taken into account. In other words, the Longsword has only 5 MT with WTD, which doubles with effective damage.

Physical damage = Strength + [(Weapon Might + Weapon triangle bonus) x Effective coefficient] + Support bonus

As if dropping the coefficient down to 2 wasn't enough, they had to keep that bit in there too. Sheesh effective weapons suck in this game.

[uzy5o]

If a unit is =<~10HKO'ed then a vulnerary will suffice. Heck, it may even suffice with just a ~7RKO with/without avo considered.

10RKOed is also a HUGE overestimation of a PC's durability. It's closer to like 4-5RKOed.

I mean, endgame, stuff like that isn't even unlikely. Vykan's showed very well multiple points that undermine lategame healing which I think should be highlighted:

Vykan assumed support partners are always in range. Having to keep one (or two) specific character(s) within three squares of another may make that unit really durable, but it's also a huge tactical inflexibility, which could lead to inefficiency. He also conveniantly used two characters with earth affinity as examples (Zihark and Tanith):

93 avo is a pretty big underestimate for Zihark’s avo in C26. If he’s 20/13 by then, a full support set nets him 100 avo, at which point said tiger only manages 18 hit. The odds of Zihark getting hit thrice in a row is only ~0.58%, and there aren’t even 3 tigers in close proximity to each other at any point in the game.

Take away A Muarim, and Zihark's 18 real becomes ~54 real. Take away B Brom as well, and Zihark faces ~71 real. All of a sudden, Zihark faces a ~29%/~50% chance of being critically wounded in just two hits! And Zihark's support partners not being in range is actually quite likely given the massive movement disparity.

In addition, Tanith has some freakishly high avo herself. At lv --/17 with A Marcia/B Oscar, she has 101 avo, not to mention 2 high rank weapon types for WTC. The Wyvern Lord you mentioned will only manage 2.53 real, and she could always 1RKO him at range using the sonic sword.

Take away the B Oscar (quite likely because Tanith might need to fly off elsewhere) and that 2.53 real becomes ~19 real. Take away A Marcia as well, and it becomes ~43 real.

See how a unit's durability can plummet sharply with each support taken away? With healer(s) present, you have to worry about that much less. Units are free to move where they want instead of having to be chained to certain other unit(s) or risk taking significant damage.

Also, I haven't seen an answer to Red Fox's point that healers >>> self-healing. If a character takes a big wound, healing with a healer uses one player phase. Healing with vulneraries uses up 2 or 3 player phases. Elixirs also use only one player phase, but there's only 9 uses.

I could go on, but I'll just quote Cynthia because she did a much better job of explaining than I did:

Taking an average of all the enemy damage doesn’t account for all the situations that lead to significant damage though.

Effective weapons are an example of this. Let’s take someone normally durable, like Muarim. There’s a laguz axe warrior on Ch26 with 44 eff attack, this 2HKOs a level 14 Muarim (44-18*2= 26, Muarim only has 50 HP). So if Muarim or any other laguz is hit by this guy or many of the other enemies with laguzslayer weapons, they’ll need healing.

Some of the common high tier units also have low Res. 20/13 Zihark for example, is 2HKOd by any of the sages on the map in Ch265. Now their hit rates may not be very high, but Zihark also doesn’t necessarily have a full support set that’s always in range either and if he does get hit by one he’s going to need healed.

Plus there are enemies with high crit. There are a few enemies sporting Killers on Ch26, as well as every SM and Sniper having about 26 Crit. These crits do a lot more damage than normal. For example, that Makalov with 44 HP/21 Def takes 33 damage from the Warrior with a Killer Axe crit., the chance to crit is pretty substantial too, about 25%. After this crit, there are several enemies on the map who can kill Makalov in a single hit, so healing him would be beneficial.

There are also enemies with absurdly high Atk and Hit, namely laguz which show up very frequently in the last few chapters. For example Dragons have 43- 48 Atk, which would all 2HKO Makalov, and their hit is high as well(around 135 Hit). Anyone hit by a dragon is going to need healing.

It’s not just the dragons either, all the laguz have high hit. Take Zihark for example, he may have 93 Avo, but a Tiger has about 130 hit, which means his chances of getting hit are non-negligible. A 20/14 Zihark is still getting 3HKOd by a 30 Atk Tiger (a lot of tigers have more than this), so his need of healing go up considerably.

There are also just enemies with high Atk period, for example the 34 Atk Wyvern Lord on Ch26. This guy can 2RKO a level 15 Tanith for example, and leaves a lot of other durable units at low HP values after 2 hits.

Actually, there's a lot of 2-3RKO's here.

Edited September 3, 2009 by uzy5o

[Shadow Mir]

Actually... the longsword has a mere 6 Mt (Which is 12 effective Mt). And IIRC, most Horse Knights use lances, dropping that to 10 effective Mt, which is barely better than a Steel weapon.

Isn't the -1 for WTD taken after effective damage calculation?

Actually, I think it's before effective damage is taken into account. In other words, the Longsword has only 5 MT with WTD, which doubles with effective damage.

Physical damage = Strength + [(Weapon Might + Weapon triangle bonus) x Effective coefficient] + Support bonus

As if dropping the coefficient down to 2 wasn't enough, they had to keep that bit in there too. Sheesh effective weapons suck in this game.

My sentiments exactly. Also, they're mad heavy.

[Reikken]

effective swords suck in this game

axes are w1n

lances are........decent sometimes

[Florete]

And here's another thing I just thought of. It'll sound like a sandbag, but let me explain.

Depending on the time we get them, Volke cannot be credited for the ~12 most valuable things he can get from chests. Why? Because that's how many extra uses of Chest Keys we have. In other words, if I don't use Volke or Sothe, these are the items I'll get anyway, because I want the most valuable items. This is the number of Chest Keys we have at certain parts of the game

Until 16 - 4 (Chapter 7 lacks Volke, but I'll list the items)

16-21 - 2 more

22-26 - 4 more

27-F - 2 more

So basically, until 16, we have 4 uses. On 16 we get 2 more, and etc.

The list of Chest items at those parts of the game:

From 10-16 (4 Chest Key uses): (7) Barrier, Armorslayer, Miracle, (10) Javelin, Short Axe, Steel Lance, Counter, Statue Frag, (13) Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, Longsword, Elfire, Occult, Energy Drop, Speedwings.

The only items in that list I'd consider particularly valuable are the Energy Drop, Speedwing, Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, Barrier, and maybe the Elfire, Occult, and Statue Frag. The top four I'd say are Energy Drop, Speedwing, and two of the Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, and Barrier (Although I'm pretty sure it's called Ward in this game). I can't really pick between those last three, but let's move on before making any decisions.

From 16-21 (2 more uses): (16) Full Guard, Dracoshield, Bolting, Physic, Ashera Icon, Silver Lance, (18) Recover, Silence, Wrath, (21) Thoron, Corrosion, Talisman, Energy Drop, Stiletto, Parity, Brave Sword, Master Seal.

The most valuable items here I'd say are the Full Guard, Dracoshield, Physic, Energy Drop, Brave Sword, and maybe the Thoron, Bolting, and Silver Lance. +2 Luck and Res aren't particularly amazing, those skills aren't particularly awesome, we shouldn't need a Master Seal at this point, and if we're not even using Volke we definitely don't care about the Stiletto.

From 22-26 (4 more uses): (22) Spirit Dust, Nosferatu, Sleep, Bolganone, Tomahawk, Silver Bow.

All are fairly good, but none of them are spectacular either.

27 to the end (2 more uses): (27) Bolganone, Resolve, Laguz Axe, Fortify, Spear, Silver Lance, Physic.

Resolve would have been better earlier, but isn't too special now. Same with most of that stuff save the Fortify.

So what are we getting? Well, I'd say our first four Chest Key uses can go to the Energy Drop, Speedwings, Ward, and Laguz Axe (Since we're more likely to have any Axe user in play than any bow user).

The next bit is more tricky, since we have only 2 uses for a good number of decent items. The Brave Sword and Physic are probably the best. And the items acquired earlier were probably better to get then than waiting for these, so those are still in as well.

And then we get 6 more uses for the last 13 items. I personally would take the Spirit Dust, Tomahawk, Fortify, Physic, and be left wondering about the other 2 I can take.

So Volke's/Sothe's list has been cut down to this:

(Only Volke) (10) Javelin, Short Axe, Steel Lance, Counter, Statue Frag.

(Both) (13) Killer Bow, Longsword, Elfire, Occult, (16) Full Guard, Dracoshield, Bolting, Ashera Icon, Silver Lance, (18) Recover, Silence, Wrath, (21) Thoron, Corrosion, Talisman, Energy Drop, Stiletto, Parity, Master Seal.

(All but 2 of these) (22) Nosferatu, Sleep, Bolganone, Silver Bow, (27) Bolganone, Resolve, Laguz Axe, Spear, Silver Lance.

So that's all you can really credit Sothe/Volke for. I'd even question getting anything but the Statue Frag in chapter 10 if you complete it in 12 turns, and a lot of that stuff near the end will likely be redundant.

And note that this was the stuff I cut off. Feel free to change something if you feel something else would be more valuable:

Energy Drop, Speedwings, Laguz Axe, Brave Sword, Physic, Spirit Dust, Tomahawk, Fortify, Physic, and two more at the end. In other words, this is the stuff I'll be getting whether I play a Thief or not, so neither can be credited for it. This is not even counting the possibility of killing Ravens and enemy Thieves after they've gotten something from a Chest, which happens in a lot of cases, but I can't be arsed to go that in-depth unless I really need to.

Note: Volke cannot get Ward anyway, so that's one less Key use he has to compete with if we get it.

And I'll repeat something from before. The tier gap between Sothe and Volke. Why? The list of stuff only he can get is small. His combat lead is notable, but he still sucks in combat. And then Sothe has possible supports. Hell, I could almost see Sothe > Volke if combat was left out of the equation.

Oh hey, one more thing. Doesn't Volke cost you 50g every time he opens a Chest? That's another (admittedly very small) advantage Sothe has. If he opens all of those listed Chests, that's 1550 to be subtracted from whatever he makes us. Very small, but it might as well be out there.

Okay, last thing for real this time. I always assume stealth in chapter 10, but is anyone opposed to that? If that isn't assumed, we have 6 more Chest Key uses, but I won't go into that because I like the extra BEXP.

[Dat Nick]

Very small, but it might as well be out there.

Very small? Aren't you the one who always says that there's an assload of money in this game? 1550 is NOTHING, and it comes is sporadic periods anyway. A good deal of that piles up when we already have enough dough to buy out the Trump Empire anyway. Costing 1550 for vastly superior combat/durability as well as innate Shade>Sothe.

In addition, the statue Frag, which you just credited Volke for, more than cancels that piddling sum out.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Joker

[Colonel M]

Sothe has passable WHAT!?!

Supporting Astrid and Tormod... and they have better options. Astrid has a greater chance of being in play but there is that MOV gap to address.

I don't care if we're raising Sothe up due to thieving utility, but let's not blow things out of proportion.

[Tino]

Keyword. Possible

And then Sothe has possible supports

[Dat Nick]

Supporting Astrid and Tormod... and they have better options.

If Gatrie's not in play, Astrid doesn't have any better options. Tormod's torn between Devdan and Calill, neither of which are particularly good.

Not that I disagree that these supports are borderline trivial no thanks to Sothe's lolWind affinity...

[Colonel M]

I get the point. Not saying Volke's is any better either (lolBastian) but again, it could also cut down pending on if we field him in certain chapters, since this is an argument that is currently being used against Volke in the first place.

K, I read it wrong. I thought she said passable not possible. Sorry.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

Very small, but it might as well be out there.

Very small? Aren't you the one who always says that there's an assload of money in this game? 1550 is NOTHING, and it comes is sporadic periods anyway. A good deal of that piles up when we already have enough dough to buy out the Trump Empire anyway. Costing 1550 for vastly superior combat/durability as well as innate Shade>Sothe.

In addition, the statue Frag, which you just credited Volke for, more than cancels that piddling sum out.

That's why I said it's very small. I mean, if kirsche is going to toss ferrying Volke around like it's a point in his favor, I think I can mention this. Yeah, it's pretty damn unlikely to change anything, but it might as well be out there.

EDIT: Also, using my earlier list of the times we should have a Thief, Astrid would get C Sothe by 17, B by 24, and it can't reach A. Tormod would have C by 19 and B by 26. If we ever have extra deployment slots or just want to steal extra stuff, it'll be faster, but I don't think it's worth that much myself.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[uzy5o]

Okay, last thing for real this time. I always assume stealth in chapter 10, but is anyone opposed to that? If that isn't assumed, we have 6 more Chest Key uses, but I won't go into that because I like the extra BEXP.

IMO The benefits of stealth aren't as great as it seems. Without stealth, there's an extra 19 enemies you can fight, 1 promoted and 18 others that average lvl 11. I'll assume our units are lvl 11 as well to make calculations easier. Kill exp gives about 490 CEXP, which is worth about 530 BEXP, so stealth gives an extra 170 BEXP. But there's several things to consider:

1. Nonkill exp. Our units certainly aren't one-rounding consistently at this point.

2. Healing exp, which you can't get if you don't fight.

3. Is it even possible to finish the chapter in 12 turns using stealth? If not, that's some more lost exp there.

So there's not that much extra exp earned from stealth. And then we also have to consider:

4. Weapon exp, which is kind of hard to come by in this game.

5. Of course, the 3 extra chest keys, which can be used to get:

So Volke's/Sothe's list has been cut down to this:

(Only Volke) (10) Javelin, Short Axe, Steel Lance, Counter, Statue Frag.

(Both) (13) Killer Bow, Longsword, Elfire, Occult, (16) Full Guard, Dracoshield, Bolting, Ashera Icon, Silver Lance, (18) Recover, Silence, Wrath, (21) Thoron, Corrosion, Talisman, Energy Drop, Stiletto, Parity, Master Seal.

(All but 2 of these) (22) Nosferatu, Sleep, Bolganone, Silver Bow, (27) Bolganone, Resolve, Laguz Axe, Spear, Silver Lance.

It seems like you can get all the good items with just chest keys. Most of the extra items that Volke/Sothe can get you are kinda redundant. Of course, you don't have to pick the same six items I picked, but the point remains.

[Florete]

3. Is it even possible to finish the chapter in 12 turns using stealth? If not, that's some more lost exp there.

I have, but I didn't get many people to escape nor did I open the 4 Chests on the left.

[Reikken]

Okay, last thing for real this time. I always assume stealth in chapter 10, but is anyone opposed to that? If that isn't assumed, we have 6 more Chest Key uses, but I won't go into that because I like the extra BEXP.

Well, if we're not using a thief at all, the extra 6 key uses would almost certainly outweigh the difference between combat exp and bonus exp. You can't not use Volke that chapter and do stealth and recruit Kieran anyway, so if not using a thief at all for any chapter, I would assume no stealth on ch 10.

[-Cynthia-]

The reason we assume stealth on ch10 is that we're assuming max BEXP on every chapter, as a general principle.

I guess I'll move Mist over Volke for now.