FE9 Tier list v3

[Ether]

Anyone else think they could climb into High?

[-Cynthia-]

Anyone else think they could climb into High?

I like to think of Top and High as reserved for units who maintain excellent combat throughout almost their entire existence (and Reyson, but his Vigors are much better than heals or thivery). Everyone in Upper Mid usually has a period where they're pretty average or worse, like Muarim lategame, or Nephenee/Zihark/Brom at base. There are soem chapters where Mist isn't that useful(when our team is so durable we don't need healing much anymore) and Volke is only useful when we need stuff stolen or picked, that's how I see it anyway.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Adding to the Volke debate,

Using only Volke to open all the chests on Chapters 16, 21, and 22 results in a loss of efficiency.

On Ch16, max BEXP comes in 8 turns and there are 6 chests. There is no way Volke can get everything while maintaining efficiency so you are likely going to have to use chest keys and door keys to get everything within 8 turns.

On Ch21, completing the chapter in 18 turns gives max BEXP. There are 4 rooms with 2 chests each spread out across the map which makes picking alone take 12 turns. This gives Volke 6 turns to get to all four rooms. You're going to need keys to get everything while still being efficient.

On Ch22, 12 turns is max BEXP. Having Volke pick the three chests a side is possible within this time limit, but would probably require good luck with killing enemies and taking Reyson away from helping other units. Going for the Killer Axe on top of that just isn't worth it.

Ch 27 is also potentially a place where efficiency is lost.

Also, on Ch10, Volke is only getting you one item out of the four chests near the boss if you go stealth since he will be seen on the next turn.

[Zkirsche]

I think Rofl should move into low, and perhaps just above Ena as he wins availability for so long it isn't even funny and I think Vykan showed he didn't need an absurdly huge amount of resources to become decent. And yes, I think Mia should move into lower mid for her availability too.

[-Cynthia-]

I think Rofl should move into low, and perhaps just above Ena as he wins availability for so long it isn't even funny and I think Vykan showed he didn't need an absurdly huge amount of resources to become decent. And yes, I think Mia should move into lower mid for her availability too.

I really don't know about Rolf, since he sucks for so long it's pretty sad. Remember that with Vykan's stats Rolf was mostly 3RKOing and getting 2RKOed back at 2 range, which is pretty bad in PoR. I do agree with Mia moving up though, since post promotion she's easily outclassing people like Devdan who are two tiers above her.

Edited September 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If Rolf is in low tier because he sucks for a long time without paying back investment in him, Tormod should move down too. To pull even with Tormod in terms of levels, Rolf needs 6 levels over 5 chapters where you're actually fighting. Assuming 15 exp per hit, Rolf needs only 8 damaging shots a chapter to achieve this. This may be hard to do while still getting optimal BEXP, but if you factor in kill shots and fair share of BEXP, it's not that hard to get Rolf to level 7 by the time Tormod joins. Even if Rolf is only level 5 by the time Tormod joins, that 2 level difference doesn't justify a 2 tier difference. Rolf has contributed by weakening enemies so your other units can 1 RKO them and his combat may be better than Tormod's at the same level due to higher AS/longbows/higher mt weapons.

[Tino]

I think Rofl should move into low, and perhaps just above Ena as he wins availability for so long it isn't even funny and I think Vykan showed he didn't need an absurdly huge amount of resources to become decent. And yes, I think Mia should move into lower mid for her availability too.

Only problem is that availability has no value whatsoever.

You know, the whole positive/negative utility thing.

[Reikken]

Nah, availability is always good to some degree. The problem comes when it also comes paired with lower stats, which are always bad. In order to not keep suck stats forever and get leveled up a decent amount, the unit has to be used past the point at which it's no longer useful and is instead hurting performance for whatever reason. Unfortunately for Rofl, his higher availability also comes with much lower stats, so bad that that hurts him more than his availability helps him.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Reikken

[Eltoshen]

Reading a bunch of posts in this topic about healing not being very useful...wtf? My characters are around level 20/13-20/18 at the late-game chapters, but they still get hit hard every once in awhile. We are discussing hard mode, right?

Edited September 6, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Zkirsche]

I believe Vykan showed that a level 9/0 Rofl by chapter 11 isn't too absurd, and the only problem enemies he faces are kinghts and cavliers (the ones he can't double) which not many other people can ORKO anyway (especially since some can't double some of the cavliers.) So teaming up to help kill things quicker (What Rofl does) >>> Not teaming up to kill things. (What Lucia/Bastian/Ena/Nasir do) at this point in time. Then come ravens in teh next few chapters which a level 10 Rofl with an iron forge deals ~20 damage per hit to. For the record, Level 15 Ike with a laguz slayer deals 1 less damager per hit. So Rofl is actually beating a high tier character for chapter 12, and is partially beating the same high tier character in chapter 13. LolLucia, lolBastian and lolEna never have that kind of utility. As for defence, he has 23 HP/9 Def, which means only 1 enemy in chapter 11 2RKO's him. Admittedly he's much worse durably in chapter 12 for being doubled by the ravens, but considering the dame he deals, the raven is likely dead before he can be killed by it.

Then wyverns starts showing up en masse in chapter 20, where Rofl is also being very good, especially with the brave bow, which he practically has a monopoly over, unless we're fielding two low tier units (Shinon and Rofl) in the same PT, which would be silly. Oh yeah, a 20/1 Rofl by this point with a Rhys support and some spd band usages has 27 Atk with the brave bow (37 effective) and 18 AS, or 31 Atk (45 effective) with a steel forge. The former ORKO's all of the map sans the knights (aka, all but 3 enemies), including the boss. The latter ORKO's everything sans the myrmidon and the knights (aka all but 4 enemies). Just thought I'd show you that he isn't incredibly relying on that brave bow for his offence. As for durability, 33 HP (with band usage) and 14 Def means that only Shiharam 2RKO's him in chapter 20, and since Rofl ORKO's him back, this matters not. Heck, even 3RKO's are rare, as only 8 enemies can achieve this. And then his 55 avo helps him as these enemies all have <50 displayed against him. Not only that, but only 1 of these enemies has 1-2 range, meaning that with shade, bad durability doesn't matter. And considering we don't want a unit with no enemy phase to get attacked, giving him shade isn't such a bad thing.

Then, Rolf roflstomps (get it?) Lucia and Bastian on player phase offence when they show up thanks to doubling/better Atk. And their durability certainly isn't the best so actually having a possible enemy phase doesn't matter as much. By the time they show up Rofl has had 129 player phases of decent combat (from chapter 11 onwards), and continues to have good player phases after that, Lucia/Bastian have nowhere near that kind of utility. I'd say that Rofl > Ena + Nasir for this amount of Player phases and certainly a tier better than the likes of Lucia and Bastian.

[Reikken]

I believe Vykan showed that a level 9/0 Rofl by chapter 11 isn't too absurd

Indeed it's not. It just means a ton of bonus exp.

[Zkirsche]

Indeed it's not. It just means a ton of bonus exp.

Getting a level 3 Rofl to level 9 only costs 566 out of ~3050 bexp, or ~18.56% of the bexp count by chapter 11. Considering we won't even have the whole team by this point (Stefan/Muarim/Jill/Makalov/Astrid/Tanith don't exist yet), some units don't even want much bexp (Titania, for example) and he can go without bexp for a while after this, so this isn't as big a negative as one might assume it is.

[Tino]

Uh, yes, it is. We're talking about nearly one fifth of all the BEXP we have. That's a lot. You mention some scenarios the decrease some of the negativity that comes from it, but you fail to mention scenario's that increase it. Such as, say, units that have yet to come who you might save it for? Units that could gain that extra bit of offence/defence to be a much better unit with one more level of BEXP? How about those scenarios?

[Colonel M]

Note: Rolf does not have a monopoly on bows. There's still Astrid who is very likely to be in play.

[Eltoshen]

If we're giving away bonus experience, I'd rather give it to Mist than Rolf. How many times has BEXP been mentioned again? It can be given to anybody, I don't get why people are using it as part of their argument.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Eltoshen

[uzy5o]

Problem about Rolf getting BEXP: Rolf is not present in the first 7 chapters. He is not entitled to ANY of the BEXP you get in those 7 chapters.

[Florete]

Was someone trying to make a case to lower Rolf? If someone wanted that, you'd have to show that the BEXP used outweighs his contribution so much so that even Bastian and Lucia are better in thier short time than Rolf is all game with the BEXP.

Or maybe this was just an effect of trying to raise Rolf higher. That I don't agree with.

[Zkirsche]

Uh, yes, it is. We're talking about nearly one fifth of all the BEXP we have. That's a lot. You mention some scenarios the decrease some of the negativity that comes from it, but you fail to mention scenario's that increase it. Such as, say, units that have yet to come who you might save it for? Units that could gain that extra bit of offence/defence to be a much better unit with one more level of BEXP? How about those scenarios?

But he doesn't even need to use much of it afterwards because he levels up so fast. I believe Vykan calculated that it's only 10%, which is an equal share on a team of 10 units (a good amount of units), by chapter 15, meaning that then he has no negative cost overall. Rofl can actually use stuff like this to help him and since this game is piss easy, giving him that extra bit of bexp won't hurt in the long run. Lucia and Bastian lack this option. This is a win for Rofl.

Debating low tiers is all about being fixable, can someone's performance be fixed? Well, Bastian and Lucia's performances need a lot more work than Rofl's, and don't help as much throughout the course of the game (As the effects can only take place in chapter 24 onwards, whilst the effects of giving Rofl what he needs statistically helps you out from chapter 11 - much better) which is why I'd say that he's a tier ahead of them.

If we're giving away bonus experience, I'd rather give it to Mist than Rolf. How many times has BEXP been mentioned again? It can be given to anybody, I don't get why people are using it as part of their argument

Erm, because it's there? As long as bexp exists, it'd be stupid to ignore it. And Rofl has the option of becoming good with it, Lucia, Bastian and Ena don't. They also don't help a lot in the long run.

Problem about Rolf getting BEXP: Rolf is not present in the first 7 chapters. He is not entitled to ANY of the BEXP you get in those 7 chapters.

I fail to see how it matters. In fact, the fact that those units were present for the first 8 chapters should mean that they have supports built and their growths have kicked in, so if anything, they need it less.

Note: Rolf does not have a monopoly on bows. There's still Astrid who is very likely to be in play.

Why would Astrid rather use bows later on instead of axes, which are higher in MT and have 1 range?

[Colonel M]

Note: Rolf does not have a monopoly on bows. There's still Astrid who is very likely to be in play.

Why would Astrid rather use bows later on instead of axes, which are higher in MT and have 1 range?

Uh, effective Mt and secondary option? Never heard of a Killer Hand Axe nor a Brave Hand Axe...

[Florete]

Astrid would like a Bow for those times where she wants 2 range but has no need for 1 range, since Bows are generally > Hand Axes in that regard. This basically means she'll want a forge that'll last her for pretty much the entire game, so it isn't much of a hindrance to Rolf. But a Bow is useful on occasions (Wyverns and stuff).

[Colonel M]

The point was she can use the bows to her advantage still. Hence, not really a monopoly.

It'd be correct if he said he has the upper hand on using the high class bows. Then again I could place 2 Arms Scrolls on Boyd and get closer to Brave...

[uzy5o]

I fail to see how it matters. In fact, the fact that those units were present for the first 8 chapters should mean that they have supports built and their growths have kicked in, so if anything, they need it less.

The point is not about who needs it. The point is that each chapter gives BEXP which is then distrubuted among team members. But why should a portion of the BEXP given to someone who wasn't there, and therefore, didn't actually contribute to earning BEXP?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So what does everyone think about moving Tormod and Rolf closer together?

Also,

I think Lucia is kind of underrated. On Ch24, she is one rounding 20/54 and 3 hitting 22/54 enemies with a silver sword. She starts off with 62 avo so enemies have around 30 displayed hit before weapon triangle is factored in. That combined with an average of 22 att means she is barely getting 3 HKO'd (21 att becomes 4 HKO). With an average of 40 displayed 32 true hit, she is not dying easily (I don't feel like doing the math). From there, she has a decent 50% strength growth and with a silver forge, she can one round a lot of things later. Her avo increases by 1.8 a level and she has earth affinity though her support options aren't the greatest. Unless Parity can cancel WTA, she should probably remove it.

Edited September 6, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Florete]

I fail to see how it matters. In fact, the fact that those units were present for the first 8 chapters should mean that they have supports built and their growths have kicked in, so if anything, they need it less.

The point is not about who needs it. The point is that each chapter gives BEXP which is then distrubuted among team members. But why should a portion of the BEXP given to someone who wasn't there, and therefore, didn't actually contribute to earning BEXP?

How does that make a difference? Are we suddenly saying "Boyd's contribution resulted in 31% of this maps BEXP, so that is how much he gets"? If we did it like you're suggesting, Titania would get a lot, and she obviously needs none for quite some time.

There's no value in using something immediately if it isn't put to good use. If anything, Rolf should be given more BEXP levels than others because he uses a lot less to level up at first than the others do, so his overall improvement with the same amount of BEXP will likely be greater.

[uzy5o]

Maybe I should have replaced "get" with "deserves".

And Rolf doesn't requires "much" less BEXP per levelup. It's about 20% less at level 1 vs. level 10, and the difference is less as he closes the gap. On the other hand, since Rolf has very little enemy phase, BEXP may actually be less useful on Rolf vs. someone who could put the BEXP to use on player and enemy phase.

Edited September 6, 2009 by uzy5o