Hetzel

[BK-201]

Battle Saves.

I am pretty sure those skills can activate for seige tomes. Innate skills that they start with won't have any special effect other than taking no capacity.

My friend has done several calculations and unless something is wrong it will work.

I'll post the procedure eventually.

Easy mode allows for 17 units I believe which is one more than enough.

Why not kill him with a seige tome?

Steal after a seige tome hits him with disarm.

You already stated Tormod flared Hetzel with a seige tome so I'm pretty sure it is doable.

Soren, Callil, Tormod, and if you want Illyana.

Edited December 12, 2009 by BlackKnight666

[Cysx]

Innate skills that they start with won't have any special effect other than taking no capacity.

Yes,I know that much.What I said about that was just speculation.

My friend has done several calculations and unless something is wrong it will work.

That's the problem.There's lots of things you're unsure of.The problem is that if any part of what I supposed is correct,your idea may become undoable.

I'll post the procedure eventually.

Okay.I'll be waiting.

Why not kill him with a seige tome?

I might be wrong,but with Hetzel's very high resistance and no possibility of flaring,you'd need three round of ranged tomes.So you basically need to kill the first set of ennemies,as you don't have enough pass skills for everyone(probably with ranged tomes too).I really doubt you will have enough movement for everything,even with heavy reliance on shoving.But then again,I might be wrong...

You already stated Tormod flared Hetzel with a seige tome so I'm pretty sure it is doable.

No,I never got a flare with a ranged tome.That flare was with a rexfire.I don't recall saying that,but whatever.

And that doesn't really tell me why you actually want to do this(killing/stealing from Hetzel)...Which is what I'd like to know to begin with.

Edit:Rather large edit,decided to post a more "in depht" answer.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Cysx

[BK-201]

It's a challenge. Also for killing him with a seige tome. Soren double and must disarm(if possible) and then have another mage seige tome him. You just need Tormod to rescue Heather I think.

[Vykan12]

Adept works with seige tomes for any character. Not sure where you'd get the impression it doesn't. Anyway I'm up for recording Hetzel and Oliver dying on turn 1 provided it's possible.

[Cysx]

Adept works with seige tomes for any character. Not sure where you'd get the impression it doesn't.

When did I say that?Do people even read what I'm writing?(T_T)Guess I just write too much at once...

...If what you mean is that you can get an adept activation on a ranged tome by attacking anything,not juste playable characters specifically...I got the impression you cannot by having Soren with a blessed ranged tome in the endgame,and with 20+ uses on dragons or spirits(actually,with all my retries,that could be more than 40 uses),never getting any adept activation.That's just very unlikely.

But if you're sure of what you say...

Anyway I'm up for recording Hetzel and Oliver dying on turn 1 provided it's possible.

Then,don't do this as I did.Rather than that,I guess we should wait for BK666 to post his "procedure",and if there's no problem with it,you're better off trying his way.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Cysx

[Vykan12]

I'm just going to make sure I have all the necessary resources to undertake this when I arrive to 4-4. I'll also see if I can figure it out myself. For one thing, I'm going to make sure I get at least 6 arms scrolls as you reccomended. Fortunately, there are 7 as treasure so I don't have to spend a penny on them.

1-5 (bargain)

1-6-1 (treasure)

1-7 (bargain)

1-8 (treasure)

1-9 (bargain)

1-E (bargain)

2-3 (treasure)

2-E (treasure)

3-2 (bargain)

3-3 (bargain)

3-5 (bargain)

3-9 (bargain)

4-P (treasure)

4-1 (treasure)

4-2 (treasure)

4-E-1 (bargain x5)

Edited December 14, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[BK-201]

I have the procedure written down somewhere else. A certain member who I know in real life has been pestering me for it to the point it is annoying me. PM me for it. It requires a long range disarm. It also explains how to kills both in one turn. Credits go to my friend.

[Vykan12]

By long range disarm, you mean someone with a siege tome and the disarm skill attacks Hetzel, forcing him to unequip a staff giving him +def?

[BK-201]

Why + defense? But yes. Also you will magic kill him so it doesn't matter.

[Kinata]

Here's the strategy I came up with to kill Hetzel and get his Heal staff. I also wrote at the end how to kill Hetzel and Oliver on turn 1. If you asked BK666 to PM you, you might notice that I have edited the strategy on defeating Hetzel and Oliver (yes, I was the one who came up with this whole topic and strategy in the first place). This way, you will only have to use the Rescue staff once. Oh, and sorry for the wasteful double space. I didn't want to retype the entire strategy, but the copy and paste double spaced what I wrote and I couldn't fix it. Sorry for the long post too.

U O O R S O O

O B H O C Z O

A O O Rh Ha O I

O X Y O M J O

Ike is used as a reference since he can only start in that spot.

The diagram looks confusing. It's supposed to be a 7 by 4 grid but the shape got messed up.

O-empty

U-Ulki

R-Rafiel

S-Soren

X and Y-Any non-mounted unit

H-Heather

C-Calill

Z-Any non-mounted, non-armored unit with a movement of at least 6

A and B-Since this strategy only requires 16 of the 18 units, these are the optional units that may be brought into battle

Rh- Rhys

Ha-Haar

I-Ike

M-Mist

J-Janaff

Required stats:

Soren and Calill need to be strong enough together to defeat Hetzel (he has HP: 42, Spd: 24, Res: 35) with their long-range tomes; Soren needs Disarm

Tormod: Mag: 28 with Rescue staff, boots, Celerity, and Pass, A in staves

Janaff: Smite

Heather: Spd: 25 and Pass

Rhys: Mag: 24, A in staves

Haar: Strong enough to defeat a General in one round with a Tomahawk

Ike: Strong enough to defeat a Swordmaster in one round

Mist: Mag: 26, A in staves, promoted

1. Have Vika shove Tormod to the left
2. Have Ike kill the Swordmaster three spaces to the right of him
3. Have Janaff smite Tormod forward
4. Have Muarim shove Tormod forward
5. Have Tormod run 3 forward, 3 left, 3 forward, and 1 left and Rescue staff Mist
6. Have Mist trade with Tormod, Rescue staff Rhys and move two left
7. Have Rhys move two left, trade with Mist, and Rescue staff Heather
8. Have Calill move 4 forward Meteor the door nearest to her
9. Have Haar move 5 forward, 1 left, and 1 forward, and kill with a Tomahawk the enemy two to the left of him
10. Have Ulki move 4 right and 1 down, shove Soren forward, and move 1 down
11. Have Soren move 2 forward and 2 left and kill with a Blizzard, or Meteor, the enemy 1 left and 5 forward of him
12. Have X shove Rafiel to the right
13. Have Y shove Rafiel forward
14. Have Rafiel move 2 forward and 1 left and use Vigor
15. Have Haar rescue Rafiel and, if Haar has a support with Soren or Calill, move 1 down, 2 left, and 3 forward. If he does not, do not make him move after rescuing Rafiel
16. Have Z shove Calill to the left
17. Have Soren move 1 left and 5 forward and Blizzard Hetzel. Make sure Disarm activates
18. Have Heather steal Hetzel's Heal staff
19. Have Calill move 2 left and 4 forward and kill Hetzel with a Meteor

The only uncertainty I have in this strategy is that the long-range tomes may not allow Disarm to activate.

Some characters can be replaced, like replacing Calill with Ilyana, but be careful if you try doing that.

In Normal or Hard mode, you can still get the Heal staff, but you will not be able to kill Hetzel since you can only bring 14, not 18, units. Remove Y, Z, Calill, and Ulki. It will require these slight changes in the strategy:

1. Since Soren will not be shoved by Ulki, have him move 3 forward and 1 left and Blizzard the door instead of Calill
2. Since Rafiel will only be shoved by X, have him move 3 forward and Vigor Soren
3. Have Soren move 2 left and 4 forward and Disarm Hetzel with his long-range tome
4. Since Haar will not be Vigored by Rafiel, he will only kill the General with his Tomahawk

If you wish to kill both Hetzel and Oliver on turn 1, which can be done on any dificulty, take the normal/hard strategy. Remove Heather, Rhys, and Mist. Add Shinon with Pass, and put him where Rhys, Heather, or Mist was. Soren will need Adept. The following changes are necessary:

1. On Soren's second move (after Rafiel Vigors him), instead of Disarming Hetzel, have him activate Adept twice. Alternatively, if Soren has capped magic, an A support with Haar, and a Blizzard, Adept will only need to activate once.
2. Have Tormod Rescue staff Shinon after he makes his movement
3. Have Shinon run to Oliver and one-round him

Intense.

Edited December 24, 2009 by kinata

[Vykan12]

..If what you mean is that you can get an adept activation on a ranged tome by attacking anything,not just playable characters specifically...I got the impression you cannot by having Soren with a blessed ranged tome in the endgame,and with 20+ uses on dragons or spirits(actually,with all my retries,that could be more than 40 uses),never getting any adept activation.That's just very unlikely.

I just got Calill to activate adept twice while using meteor. Are you saying adept doesn't work with seige tomes once they're blessed?

[Kinata]

I think he's saying that if adept can activate with blessed ranged tomes, he got very unlucky, but I've had my own share of bad luck in that form. I once wanted Gatrie to Luna an enemy, which had a 30% chance of activating, so I Battle Saved. That was a while ago, but I think it took like over 20 tries. Micaiah was about to killed about an archer with an 80% chance of her, and it took me like 50 tries. So that kind of like with a Meteor isn't that surprising. And can anyone tell me if Disarm can activate from a seige tome?

[Cysx]

Here's the strategy I came up with to kill Hetzel and get his Heal staff. I also wrote at the end how to kill Hetzel and Oliver on turn 1. If you asked BK666 to PM you, you might notice that I have edited the strategy on defeating Hetzel and Oliver (yes, I was the one who came up with this whole topic and strategy in the first place).

Ahah!The mastermind!!:D

There are some problems with your strategy,one of them being pretty important.

The rescue staff is an A staff.So all those that are going tu use it need A in staves,not B.

You are mistaken on Tormod's starting position.He is the lowest of the trio.That's not very important,as this way he starts in Janaff's range,so you just start the shovings with him,instead of Vika.

And,Callil lacks one range to hit Hetzel(if I'm not mistaken).

Anyway,I didn't think you could trade then use staves in this game,but you can.Great strategy overall.

I just got Calill to activate adept twice while using meteor. Are you saying adept doesn't work with seige tomes once they're blessed?

I think he's saying that if adept can activate with blessed ranged tomes, he got very unlucky

Well,not quite,but that doesn't matter much.

What I really wanted to point out is that these are weapons with very few uses,and thus,if the devs nerfed it in any other way than forbidding mastery skills activation on them(which seems to be a fact),we probably wouldn't even know about it.And indeed,there's a possiblity that blessing them changes something,as they become incredibly broken once blessed.But that's one possibility among lots of others.

Thus,they are unreliable.That's what I meant.

Now,if I'm right about that problem with Callil,I guess you just need to find a way to shove her one space further to the left,after the canto.

[Kinata]

Thanks for the imput Cysx. I made some edits to my strategy, which you can see on my previous post. I corrected the Rescue staff weapon rank, a mistake that I made because I confused FE10's Rescue with FE9's Rescue. I gave the Smite scroll to Janaff instead of Vika to fix the Tormod positioning mistake. W was removed from the battle because he was no longer necessary. Finally, I think you were wrong about Calill. She starts exactly 21 spaces away from Hetzel (I checked) and she moves a total of 10 spaces in her two moves, in step 16 I shoved her 1 closer to Hetzel, and Meteor has a range of up to 10. You might of been confused by my poor positioning diagram or you might have missed step 16.

[Cysx]

Thanks for the imput Cysx. I made some edits to my strategy, which you can see on my previous post. I corrected the Rescue staff weapon rank, a mistake that I made because I confused FE10's Rescue with FE9's Rescue. I gave the Smite scroll to Janaff instead of Vika to fix the Tormod positioning mistake. W was removed from the battle because he was no longer necessary. Finally, I think you were wrong about Calill. She starts exactly 21 spaces away from Hetzel (I checked) and she moves a total of 10 spaces in her two moves, in step 16 I shoved her 1 closer to Hetzel, and Meteor has a range of up to 10. You might of been confused by my poor positioning diagram or you might have missed step 16.

Nah,I vas actually confusing Hetzel with one of the generals near Oliver.

You were right.Provided long range disarming is possible,this should work.

Congrats:D

Edit:

Sorry,I didn't make myself clear about Tormod and Janaff;I meant that Tormod's real position was in Janaff's range,but that's with unit W's shoving.So you can't take W away: /

Edited December 24, 2009 by Cysx

[Kinata]

I understood what you meant with Janaff and Tormod. If you look at my edited strategy, you will see that Vika shoves Tormod to the left first, so Janaff can smite Tormod without W's help.

Update: Good news, I have figured out a strategy that will allow you to kill Hetzel and steal his Heal staff on normal/hard mode. Check it out:

YOMOO

SORHO

OXJOI

ZOWUO

Once again, Ike is used as a reference. My misshapen diagram is supposed to be a 5 by 4 grid.

O-Empty

H-Heather

M-Mist

S-Soren

R-Rafiel

X and Y-Any non-mounted unit

J-Janaff

I-Ike

Z-Any non-mounted unit with a constitution of 9 or more

W-Any unit who can ORKO a swordmaster

U-Ulki

Required stats:

Heather: Speed of 25 or more, Pass

Mist: Promoted, A rank in staves, magic of 30 or more

Soren: Able to ORKO a General with his siege tome

Janaff: Smite

Tormod: Promoted, A rank in staves, magic of 20 or more, Disarm, Meteor, Rescue staff

Muarim: Boots, Celerity, Pass

Muarim and Tormod with his Meteor need enough combined power to defeat Hetzel (HP: 42, Speed: 24, Luck: 28, Defense: 19, Resistance: 35). The easiest way to do this is to get Muarim to increase his speed by 3. He will become fast enough to ORKO Hetzel.

1. Have W kill the swordmaster 3 to the right of Ike
2. Have Vika shove Tormod to the left
3. Have Ike shove Tormod forward
4. Have Z shove Ulki to the right
5. Have Ulki shove Tormod forward
6. Have X shove Janaff to the right
7. Have Y shove Janaff to the right
8. Have Janaff smite Tormod forward
9. Have Tormod move 2 forward, 3 left, 1 forward, Rescue staff Mist
10. Have Mist move to the square below Tormod, take the Rescue staff from Tormod, use it on Rafiel, move 2 forward and 1 right
11. Have Soren move 3 right and 2 forward, attack the general 1 to the right and 9 above him
12. Have Muarim move 4 forward, 5 left, 4 forward
13. Have Rafiel move to the square above Tormod, use Vigor
14. Have Tormod move 2 forward and 2 left, attack Hetzel, have Disarm activate
15. Have Mist move 1 left, 1 up, 3 left, Rescue staff Heather
16. Have Heather steal Hetzel’s heal staff
17. Have Muarim move 4 left, 6 up, 2 left, 1 up, kill Hetzel

Now that I've done this, I am done working on the Hetzel challenge. Though I will still appreciate any imput on this strategy .

Edited December 28, 2009 by kinata

[Vykan12]

I just tried out your strategy. It definitely works, but only if Mist and Heather swap positions.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Oliver

[Kinata]

Why do they have to be switched? Which strategy did you use? What difficulty were you on?

[Vykan12]

The normal mode strategy you posted here. If Heather's in the position on your diagram, Mist cannot rescue her. For some reason, the rescue range goes around the chest room, not through it. This also means that Mist needs way more than 20 mag for the rescue. I'm not sure, but I think Mist needs capped mag.

[Kinata]

I made the necessary edits to the strategy. I looked at the map, and I'm pretty sure Mist only needs 30 mag, not her cap of 35. Though someone should test that out because I currently don't have an FE10 disk.

[Vykan12]

Video

I managed to take out both Hetzel and Oliver using only 9 characters :D

[Parrhesia]

Nice work on destroying yourself and Hetzel within the time limit.

[Kinata]

Yay my strategy works!

I realized that I made a positioning mistake, however. In the top row, the units have a space between them while I thought they were next to each other. It doesn't matter, though.

[Cysx]

Congrats Vykan12:D

Just out of curiosity,your video does not show if anything happens after you killed both of them.I guess not,but...:)

Anyway,siege disarm does work,so I was wrong all this time...Sorry about that >_<

Good work,both of you:)

Edited January 1, 2010 by Cysx

[Kinata]

Probably nothing happens. Killing Oliver takes away the whole sequence but Hetzel warping away, and the only difference killing Hetzel makes is that he doesn't disappear. So that destroys the whole sequence. Anyway, I have thought of a funny explanation for both shortened sequences:

If you kill Hetzel, the conversation still happens. This is more proof that Oliver is insane: he actually hears Hetzel speak to him even though he left, and then he actually responds. Nothing's creepier than a guy having a conversation with someone that is no longer there.

If you kill Oliver, Hetzel leaves silently. Imagine what's on his mind: "Wow, I save this guy from dying and keep him in hiding for 3 years. And somehow, he literally dies after a single minute of battle, from an enemy army that is still on the other side of the mansion. You know what, I give up. I'm just going to show myself out, without saying a word."