Socialism is superior

[Defeatist Elitist]

I am anti-social so I hate socialists. Why do they have to socialize all the time?

If you're talking about a socialistic economy in the strict economic sense, the answer is that there might still be markets to buy and sell stuff. A dirty secret in the economics community is that socialism, strictly defined, means nothing more than the government controlling and operating the basic means of production. In other words, the government acts much as businesses do, buying factors of production (land, labor, and other resources) and selling outputs (goods and services).

That's not exactly true, IMO. Producer cooperation is one form of socialism, but producer AND consumer cooperatives (i.e. producers and consumers w/in one cooperative as opposed to producer and consumer co-operatives existing separately) is another possible form of socialism. Sorry for saying things like this in a Forest thread though.

With my (albeit limited) study of economics, I must state that there really is no such thing as a 'free-market' though. The very existence of markets requires that government set up some framework. Otherwise, all economic transactions would take place via clubbing instead of voluntary interaction.

The main argument is that people trading will set up their own framework, assuming trade is conducted frequently enough (i.e. if the market is large enough). Basically, if people engage in bad trade and make losses for their company, their companies will fire them and other firms won't hire them because they're a bad investment. As I understand it, the argument from free marketeers isn't so much that there should be no framework, as it is that there does not need to be something partially autonomous from the market that imposes such a framework.

I think it is unlikely that if the government did not exist, all economic transactions would take place via clubbing. That might be the way things go at first, but as people grouped together (because small groups < large groups) everyone would be absorbed into the large groups (because you would rather join the gruops than resist them) and at some point the large groups would stop fighting each other and trade instead.

Heyhey, READ THE FIRST POST AND COUNTER THOSE POINTS. Otherwise nobody is going to take you seriously!

[Le Communard]

What Titoist nonsense is this? Counter-revolutionary Fabian Owenites, the lot of you!

[Defeatist Elitist]

What Titoist nonsense is this? Counter-revolutionary Fabian Owenites, the lot of you!

First post bitch.

[GKSB]

First post bitch.

I second this

[Defeatist Elitist]

First post bitch.

I second this

I second this seconding.

[Inactive Account]

I pi the notion!

Edited January 25, 2010 by _____

[Defeatist Elitist]

I pi the notion!

Hey, hey, hey. Was that at all relevant to the first post? Even a bit? No, no it wasn't.

And what have I said about the first post?

[CrashGordon94]

What, are you fucking retarded? Have you even read the first post?

Yes I have, I'm afraid it doesn't do anything to convince me.

Also, calm the hell down Revan! I tried to be calm and polite about my viewpoints here, so should you!

[uguu]

Crash, join the light side

[Junkhead]

Socialism, yay.

[Le Communard]

First post bitch.

I second this

I second this seconding.

I second that emoo-o-otion.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Le Communard

[Hero]

Don't forget Gandalf the Red from the Bolshevik revolution

You speak of Colrandir, the Evencardinal? Even as he claims to bring revolution in the hour of greatest alienation and oppression, all who are wise know that he smiles behind his red cloak even as he delivers black tidings of White victories and bourgeois treachery, and he delights in it. Those who accuse him of having a hand in creating the news he shares have a good deal of evidence in their favor.

What Titoist nonsense is this? Counter-revolutionary Fabian Owenites, the lot of you!

You are a perceptive comrade. Colrandir has revealed himself before all eyes not to be the vanguard of true revolution, but rather of some fell Anarcho-Syndicalism. We cannot allow this Luxemburgist-Naxalite "Deng Xiaoping" treason to infest our organization and betray it to the Enemy in his White House!

How do you buy/get/receive/whatever things in socialism anyway? I've always wondered that.........

In the Soviet Union, China, and all other socialist countries I know of money was never abolished. Workers (and every adult was considered a worker, even those recorded as students and full-time parents) would receive a certain amount of it so long as they continued to do their work, along with other free benefits such as housing, utilities and medical care. Money was limited in its usefulness, though, as there were few frivolities to waste it on available through legal channels. It was good for food, clothing (though not necessarily high fashion), even furniture but not something like a car, which was free but required signing up for one and waiting a long time, sometimes even ten years, for one to be available. Moving to a new residence was even more arduous without a job at the new location, which is the reason many of the more extreme critics of Communism have been calling it a new form of serfdom ever since Stalin instituted 'propiska' at the dawn of the 1930s.

Even what could be bought with money often ran into shortages in the state stores. If you ever talk to someone who lived in a socialist country before the 1990s about their experiences during that time, some of the first things you'll likely hear about will be the empty shelves in stores. This in my opinion is the biggest factor in socialist governments' unpopularity in their last years, and the socialist governments that survived the storms of 1989 to 1991 have wisely sought to eliminate it in their own systems.

[Defeatist Elitist]

What, are you fucking retarded? Have you even read the first post?

Yes I have, I'm afraid it doesn't do anything to convince me.

Also, calm the hell down Revan! I tried to be calm and polite about my viewpoints here, so should you!

How many different ways must you be told? Do you perhaps have a brain parasite? Do you have a history of crystal meth abuse? No?

Then why are you posting things irrelevant to the topic?

Socialism, yay.

Very good!

First post bitch.

I second this

I second this seconding.

I second that emoo-o-otion.

FIRST POST.

Don't forget Gandalf the Red from the Bolshevik revolution

You speak of Colrandir, the Evencardinal? Even as he claims to bring revolution in the hour of greatest alienation and oppression, all who are wise know that he smiles behind his red cloak even as he delivers black tidings of White victories and bourgeois treachery, and he delights in it. Those who accuse him of having a hand in creating the news he shares have a good deal of evidence in their favor.

What Titoist nonsense is this? Counter-revolutionary Fabian Owenites, the lot of you!

You are a perceptive comrade. Colrandir has revealed himself before all eyes not to be the vanguard of true revolution, but rather of some fell Anarcho-Syndicalism. We cannot allow this Luxemburgist-Naxalite "Deng Xiaoping" treason to infest our organization and betray it to the Enemy in his White House!

How do you buy/get/receive/whatever things in socialism anyway? I've always wondered that.........

In the Soviet Union, China, and all other socialist countries I know of money was never abolished. Workers (and every adult was considered a worker, even those recorded as students and full-time parents) would receive a certain amount of it so long as they continued to do their work, along with other free benefits such as housing, utilities and medical care. Money was limited in its usefulness, though, as there were few frivolities to waste it on available through legal channels. It was good for food, clothing (though not necessarily high fashion), even furniture but not something like a car, which was free but required signing up for one and waiting a long time, sometimes even ten years, for one to be available. Moving to a new residence was even more arduous without a job at the new location, which is the reason many of the more extreme critics of Communism have been calling it a new form of serfdom ever since Stalin instituted 'propiska' at the dawn of the 1930s.

Even what could be bought with money often ran into shortages in the state stores. If you ever talk to someone who lived in a socialist country before the 1990s about their experiences during that time, some of the first things you'll likely hear about will be the empty shelves in stores. This in my opinion is the biggest factor in socialist governments' unpopularity in their last years, and the socialist governments that survived the storms of 1989 to 1991 have wisely sought to eliminate it in their own systems.

Yes yes, all well and good, but FIRST GODDAMN POST MOTHERFUCKERS.

[Altera the Hun]

...How ironic...

[Defeatist Elitist]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

[Altera the Hun]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

[Hero]

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Thinking does not come easily to revolutionaries.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Hero

[Altera the Hun]

The first person to post a Che Guevara pic will find themselves on the receiving end of a Fire Punch. I'm warning you now.

[Defeatist Elitist]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

[BK-201]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

It isn't a socialist society. People are forced to attack others with animals for money and the animals aren't paid for their work even though they obviously have enough intellect. Instead it goes to the masters who treat them like slaves.

[Defeatist Elitist]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

It isn't a socialist society. People are forced to attack others with animals for money and the animals aren't paid for their work even though they obviously have enough intellect. Instead it goes to the masters who treat them like slaves.

What the fuck are you talking about? How is that relevant. Regardless, no one is forced to attack anyone, it is mainly done for recreational or enjoyment purposes, and the Pokemon themselves seem to enjoy it. In addition, the Pokemon seem to have no need for money.

You will also note that none of the money expended is used for essentials of living, further cementing the idea that their society is a Socialist one.

[BK-201]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

It isn't a socialist society. People are forced to attack others with animals for money and the animals aren't paid for their work even though they obviously have enough intellect. Instead it goes to the masters who treat them like slaves.

What the fuck are you talking about? How is that relevant. Regardless, no one is forced to attack anyone, it is mainly done for recreational or enjoyment purposes, and the Pokemon themselves seem to enjoy it. In addition, the Pokemon seem to have no need for money.

You will also note that none of the money expended is used for essentials of living, further cementing the idea that their society is a Socialist one.

Yet somehow I manage to see the words "If you look at someone you have to challenge them". Of course the pokemon enjoy getting the crap beat out of them.

Edited January 26, 2010 by BK201

[Defeatist Elitist]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

It isn't a socialist society. People are forced to attack others with animals for money and the animals aren't paid for their work even though they obviously have enough intellect. Instead it goes to the masters who treat them like slaves.

What the fuck are you talking about? How is that relevant. Regardless, no one is forced to attack anyone, it is mainly done for recreational or enjoyment purposes, and the Pokemon themselves seem to enjoy it. In addition, the Pokemon seem to have no need for money.

You will also note that none of the money expended is used for essentials of living, further cementing the idea that their society is a Socialist one.

Yet somehow I manage to see the words "If you look at someone you have to challenge them". Of course the pokemon enjoy getting the crap beat out of them.

It is not a legal restriction, merely a Trainer's Code of Honor. There are few recreational circumstances where a battle is not enjoyable for the participants. The Pokemon do indeed enjoy getting the crap beaten out of them, as can be observed by their happiness increasing when they are used in battle and show attention by you.

[BK-201]

...How ironic...

First. Goddamn. Post.

You people aren't particularly quick in the head, are you?

Points 1 and 6 are currently contradictory, mate. Thus, Irony.

I fail to see how these points are contradictory, considering you are clearly not a socialist, and the world of Pokemon clearly follows socialist tenets. Unless you would like to admit you have finally seen the light and stopped being such a pox on all working people everywhere, and have finally joined the ranks of Socialism?

It isn't a socialist society. People are forced to attack others with animals for money and the animals aren't paid for their work even though they obviously have enough intellect. Instead it goes to the masters who treat them like slaves.

What the fuck are you talking about? How is that relevant. Regardless, no one is forced to attack anyone, it is mainly done for recreational or enjoyment purposes, and the Pokemon themselves seem to enjoy it. In addition, the Pokemon seem to have no need for money.

You will also note that none of the money expended is used for essentials of living, further cementing the idea that their society is a Socialist one.

Yet somehow I manage to see the words "If you look at someone you have to challenge them". Of course the pokemon enjoy getting the crap beat out of them.

It is not a legal restriction, merely a Trainer's Code of Honor. There are few recreational circumstances where a battle is not enjoyable for the participants. The Pokemon do indeed enjoy getting the crap beaten out of them, as can be observed by their happiness increasing when they are used in battle and show attention by you.

That happens when they win, it goes down when they faint. Also, pokemon are treated as slaves and the heads(gym leaders and champions) leave it to the trainers showing up right after the battle. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[GKSB]

Don't try and argue the logic, comrade, socialism simply produces idyllic societies again and again.

-edit: I needed to restate the point , because it deserves emphasizing. I second his post.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Crepe Knight