Socialism is superior, but we must be wary.

[Junkhead]

Call him Gio, dammit.

[Hero]

Punctuate properly, damnit. Your posts are practically illegible.

Yeah, right. You realize that China's turned into a Capitalist nation, right?

Yes, I have read Animal Farm. The entire novel is talking about Soviet Russia.

Strange, and here I thought it was about a farm full of animals. If it was an allegory, it was one about the general course of revolutions rather than the events around the October Revolution in particular. It doesn't line up well with that at all, actually. Where is Kerensky? He vies with Lenin for the title of most influential man in Russia in 1917. What about Kamanev and Zinoniev, the most important 'free agents' of the revolutionary government until the sunset of the 1920s? What of the switch from 'war Communism' to the New Economic Plan?

And a "Fully Communist Regime" is politically impossible due to human nature, unless you do as George Bernard Shaw suggested and kill everyone who's no longer useful or doesn't agree.

Human nature?

Edited January 26, 2010 by Hero

[Altera the Hun]

Fire is most effective on Communists. We capitalists have been using it for years, and as a result, only two Communist regimes truly remain: North Korea and Cuba.

Ironically, the Proletariat seems to be Conservative at this point in time. The media is calling them Tea Baggers...

More like Tea Partiers! The proletariat has always known how to have fun, using tea in place of alcoholic beverage is merely an economic consideration.

It's true that these parties are funded by insidious organizations such as Freedom House, controlled by the capitalist aristocracy, but that's all the better. If you can't beat the enemy, you should at least make him fund your entertainment budget!

And we will fight them on the beaches and on the land. We will never surrender

Besides there is yet to be a fullycommunist reigme haven't you ever read Animal Farm?

Red, you need to read Animal Farm now. I'm serious, it's very important for this debate. George Orwell was the most august political theorist of his time, after all, and we should learn closely all his work, for every word is imbued with unmatched wisdom and contains the secret answers to today's conundrums.

Most Tea Partiers are Libertarians, who want the Government out of every aspect of their lives. The Government is historically inefficient, and people have more trust in private companies to take care of such things as health insurance and food. And History has shown that such things are better run by private groups instead of Big Government.

Funny you say that, since Animal Farm was a novel written against Communism and its ilk.

[Hero]

Most Tea Partiers are Libertarians, who want the Government out of every aspect of their lives. The Government is historically inefficient, and people have more trust in private companies to take care of such things as health insurance and food. And History has shown that such things are better run by private groups instead of Big Government.

Funny you say that, since Animal Farm was a novel written against Communism and its ilk.

I know a bit about tea parties, having associated with Libertarians since the last presidential election, and I have to say, they are excellent informal settings to meet new people while you have a good time. Protesting government bailouts is cool too, but personally I prefer karaoke. It's a shame that the parties are thrown by Republicans rather than Libertarians, my mother's always saying I should find a good Libertarian wife someday soon.

I suppose I should rethink my positions on health insurance and food, though, if History has shown us such a clear path! We should never deny History! Orwell was not the kind of man who would deny History.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Hero

[Altera the Hun]

Call him Gio, dammit.

I WILL report you for trolling, Soul, if you try that again.

Punctuate properly, damnit. Your posts are practically illegible.

Yeah, right. You realize that China's turned into a Capitalist nation, right?

Yes, I have read Animal Farm. The entire novel is talking about Soviet Russia.

Strange, and here I thought it was about a farm full of animals. If it was an allegory, it was one about the general course of revolutions rather than the events around the October Revolution in particular. It doesn't line up well with that at all, actually. Where is Kerensky? He vies with Lenin for the title of most influential man in Russia in 1917. What about Kamanev and Zinoniev, the most important 'free agents' of the revolutionary government until the sunset of the 1920s? What of the switch from 'war Communism' to the New Economic Plan?

And a "Fully Communist Regime" is politically impossible due to human nature, unless you do as George Bernard Shaw suggested and kill everyone who's no longer useful or doesn't agree.

Human nature? I think you were just reading philosophy! Political science is still a science, and something that may not even exist and changes with every generation if it does has no place in any scientific discussion.

Obviously Orwell didn't cover the entirety of what was going on in Soviet Russia, or he would have mentioned a group of animals dying off due to starvation because the Pigs (Note who he chose for the leaders of the Communist party?) were selling off all their food to match what went on in Ukraine. But he didn't. It's an abridged metaphor for Soviet Russia, not a perfect one.

Just compare any public place to it's private equivalent. Public Schools are known to have horrendous amounts of waste and worthless staff, whereas such waste is nonexistant at Private Schools, and bad teachers are fired. Public Johns have a tendency to have writing on the wall and urine on the floor, or worse. Private restrooms, on the other hand, tend to be clean of such things. People have no respect for what is owned by everyone, but when they feel that it's their own, that they paid for it with their own money, they are far more likely to take care of it.

[Original Alear]

Punctuate properly, damnit. Your posts are practically illegible.

Yeah, right. You realize that China's turned into a Capitalist nation, right?

Yes, I have read Animal Farm. The entire novel is talking about Soviet Russia.

Strange, and here I thought it was about a farm full of animals. If it was an allegory, it was one about the general course of revolutions rather than the events around the October Revolution in particular. It doesn't line up well with that at all, actually. Where is Kerensky? He vies with Lenin for the title of most influential man in Russia in 1917. What about Kamanev and Zinoniev, the most important 'free agents' of the revolutionary government until the sunset of the 1920s? What of the switch from 'war Communism' to the New Economic Plan

No, Animal Farm was not an allegory, it is a work of nonfiction. Minimus actually WAS Zinoniev. I don't mean that Minimus was a pig who was meant to allude to Zinoniev. What I mean is that Zinoniev was not actually executed, but turned into a pig and put on the farm which Orwell later wrote about in Animal Farm. You can't blame Orwell for not knowing this.

All your other concerns are external to the story in Animal Farm. If Animal Farm allows any insights to be formed about Communist Revolutions or anything else, it is merely chance or the work of god - who creates such patterns in the events of the real world as we might learn from them (which is why as we all know the author who creates an allegory is either a heretic against god or a manifestation of god on earth), and follow new patterns which will influence us further - as the story is primarily a faithful retelling of real-life events.

Edited January 26, 2010 by SeverIan

[Hero]

Obviously Orwell didn't cover the entirety of what was going on in Soviet Russia, or he would have mentioned a group of animals dying off due to starvation because the Pigs (Note who he chose for the leaders of the Communist party?) were selling off all their food to match what went on in Ukraine. But he didn't. It's an abridged metaphor for Soviet Russia, not a perfect one.

Ah! Orwell's wisdom was truly without peer. Such a brutal allegory, defying fact but following popular conception--genius! They could even teach it in high schools! Provided the book isn't advocating anything crazy, of course. Let's see, what were Orwell's political views again?

Ah yes, perfectly harmless. Even in the height of George Orwell's 'wisdom' he was completely blind!

Just compare any public place to it's private equivalent. Public Schools are known to have horrendous amounts of waste and worthless staff, whereas such waste is nonexistant at Private Schools, and bad teachers are fired. Public Johns have a tendency to have writing on the wall and urine on the floor, or worse. Private restrooms, on the other hand, tend to be clean of such things. People have no respect for what is owned by everyone, but when they feel that it's their own, that they paid for it with their own money, they are far more likely to take care of it.

I hate to give in to any argument, but you have a good point. I see your reason, I just haven't though on this line before.

So public health care would lower the cleanliness standards to those of a BART station restroom? That's appalling, think about the risk of infections!

[Altera the Hun]

Punctuate properly, damnit. Your posts are practically illegible.

Yeah, right. You realize that China's turned into a Capitalist nation, right?

Yes, I have read Animal Farm. The entire novel is talking about Soviet Russia.

Strange, and here I thought it was about a farm full of animals. If it was an allegory, it was one about the general course of revolutions rather than the events around the October Revolution in particular. It doesn't line up well with that at all, actually. Where is Kerensky? He vies with Lenin for the title of most influential man in Russia in 1917. What about Kamanev and Zinoniev, the most important 'free agents' of the revolutionary government until the sunset of the 1920s? What of the switch from 'war Communism' to the New Economic Plan

No, Animal Farm was not an allegory, it is a work of nonfiction. Minimus actually WAS Zinoniev. I don't mean that Minimus was a pig who was meant to allude to Zinoniev. What I mean is that Zinoniev was not actually executed, but turned into a pig and put on the farm which Orwell later wrote about in Animal Farm. You can't blame Orwell for not knowing this.

All your other concerns are external to the story in Animal Farm. If Animal Farm allows any insights to be formed about Communist Revolutions or anything else, it is merely chance or the work of god - who creates such patterns in the events of the real world as we might learn from them (which is why as we all know the author who creates an allegory is either a heretic against god or a manifestation of god on earth), and follow new patterns which will influence us further - as the story is primarily a faithful retelling of real-life events.

THis is the most insane post I've read in months. Good job.

[Hero]

No, Animal Farm was not an allegory, it is a work of nonfiction.

Minimus actually WAS Zinoniev. I don't mean that Minimus was a pig who was meant to allude to Zinoniev. What I mean is that Zinoniev was not actually executed, but turned into a pig and put on the farm which Orwell later wrote about in Animal Farm. You can't blame Orwell for not knowing this.

All your other concerns are external to the story in Animal Farm. If Animal Farm allows any insights to be formed about Communist Revolutions or anything else, it is merely chance or the work of god - who creates such patterns in the events of the real world as we might learn from them (which is why as we all know the author who creates an allegory is either a heretic against god or a manifestation of god on earth), and follow new patterns which will influence us further - as the story is primarily a faithful retelling of real-life events.

I'm learning a lot today. It seems that Orwell does indeed work in hidden ways, in his ultimate wisdom!

[Original Alear]

Punctuate properly, damnit. Your posts are practically illegible.

Yeah, right. You realize that China's turned into a Capitalist nation, right?

Yes, I have read Animal Farm. The entire novel is talking about Soviet Russia.

Strange, and here I thought it was about a farm full of animals. If it was an allegory, it was one about the general course of revolutions rather than the events around the October Revolution in particular. It doesn't line up well with that at all, actually. Where is Kerensky? He vies with Lenin for the title of most influential man in Russia in 1917. What about Kamanev and Zinoniev, the most important 'free agents' of the revolutionary government until the sunset of the 1920s? What of the switch from 'war Communism' to the New Economic Plan

No, Animal Farm was not an allegory, it is a work of nonfiction. Minimus actually WAS Zinoniev. I don't mean that Minimus was a pig who was meant to allude to Zinoniev. What I mean is that Zinoniev was not actually executed, but turned into a pig and put on the farm which Orwell later wrote about in Animal Farm. You can't blame Orwell for not knowing this.

All your other concerns are external to the story in Animal Farm. If Animal Farm allows any insights to be formed about Communist Revolutions or anything else, it is merely chance or the work of god - who creates such patterns in the events of the real world as we might learn from them (which is why as we all know the author who creates an allegory is either a heretic against god or a manifestation of god on earth), and follow new patterns which will influence us further - as the story is primarily a faithful retelling of real-life events.

THis is the most insane post I've read in months. Good job.

My post is inspired by the works of Jorge Luis Borges. Not that he argued these things. I wish I could have dropped the most zany part (about authors) as more of an aside that's so obvious it isn't worth discussing.

EDIT:

I'm learning a lot today. It seems that Orwell does indeed work in hidden ways, in his ultimate wisdom!

Let me clarify. As far as I know, it's not that Orwell works in hidden ways, as he was not aware that he was including an autobiography of Zinoniev in his history of a farm which would just so happen to be misread by literary critics as an allegory for the October Revolution.

What I suspect is that the presence of Zinoniev in the book is evidence that our understanding of the world through literature always mirrors the world as it actually is according to the rule of god. Although no one before I was aware that Zinoniev was in the book, popular analysis lead to an interpretation of the book that reflected the presence of a key figure in the October Revolution in the actual events of the book.

Basically, god worked in mysterious ways by causing Orwell to write a narration of real events which would in the popular imagination be accepted as allegory for something else.

Edited January 26, 2010 by SeverIan

[Junkhead]

Okay.

[Kinata]

I just tried reading page 2 of this topic. Uh, what the, what were you, never mind.