FE6 HM Tier List

[General Spoon]

What makes Merlinus be above Dorothy and Karel?

I believe its because he can have the ch2 armorslayer sent across the map to him.

[dondon151]

I think you have your words mixed up there, but you have the right idea.

I've yet to find a use for Merlinus past earlygame. The only situation I can think of is when the player needs to use an item obtained in the same map, but I can't think of one in this game.

[Colonel M]

Yeah the Bors thing was a joke. Odd that Grandjackal caught on though.

Just run me through what was discussed: too lazy to skim the topic and I'll think / debate on the changes.

[grandjackal]

Yeah the Bors thing was a joke. Odd that Grandjackal caught on though.

Just run me through what was discussed: too lazy to skim the topic and I'll think / debate on the changes.

Why wouldn't I?

Also, all we really talked about that I can think of was like...Dayan's position, and Treck>Geese and Oujay.

[Colonel M]

K.

Dayan's position

He seems pretty much a good definition for a Low Tier unit. While he's not a unit that has a serious cost behind him, he does sort of struggle with limited range (though to be fair Bows is a good weapon choice), and as far as doubling Heroes in Chapter 24: nothing a Speedwings can't fix. I don't think he really should crawl out of Low Tier without a fuckton of evidence since he's limited on availability and still requires a little help to be useful.

Treck>Geese

I kind of glanced this... and the only thing I really see from Treck is two things:

1) He's a bit more accurate in Western Isles

2) He's on a horse

But aside from that, he still seems pretty gutter trash. I'm not saying Geese is better, but considering a Killer Axe gives him >60 base Crit, it's pretty insane. I guess I can fold to Treck > Geese though.

Oujay

???

[dondon151]

We were talking about Sue going into lower mid on the Ilia list. There could probably stand to be a few more changes (like Saul going up), but I don't want to jump the gun before finishing a re-do of FE6.

[Vykan12]

Also, Niime should jump a tier or two. Niime has 21 base mag, which gives 15 warp range. When do other units reach the same level of mag?

Ellen: 20/15 (lol!)

Saul: 20/19 (lawl!)

Clarine: never (closest is 16.4 at 20/20)

Hugh/Lilina/Lugh: won't ever have the staff rank

Sophia: included for completeness

Yodel: True, but joins 1-2 chapters later and has 1 less range.

I don't know what realistic levels would be for Ellen and Saul in C19-20 (depending on route), but it's definitely going to be 10/xx. This already cuts 4 points of mag for Saul and 5 points for Ellen. Basically, they don't have a chance of touching warp once Niime/Yodel show up since they use it so much better.

Now if Yodel didn't exist this would be a no-brainer, but being one of only two true warpskippers is huge. Even looking at high/top tier combat units, you can always argue "I can choose not to use this person and still have X amount of awesome combat units". So, in that sense, saying Yodel can do what Niime does shouldn't really impact her rank much.

Besides, even 2 chapters of exclusivity is pretty awesome. 1 warp equals a paladin moving fully twice, and that's before accounting for terrain obstructions that even fliers cannot pass, let alone the ones they can.

And, aside from her warp use, she has the usual staff utility (physic/ward/restore/rescue/berserk), and again the higher mag makes her optimal for this role (eg/ most physic range, highest berserk accuracy, etc). I'm pretty sure she can reliably 2HKO at range too, for what it's worth. Her durability is ass, though.

[Toothache]

There's another thing Niime has over Yodel - Apocalypse. That's another +5 to her Magic stat, for even more Warp range. Of course, it does mean farming her Dark rank a bit until she can use the thing, but by the time you get it that's certainly doable (drop her an Angelic Robe and Nosfertanking isn't too far out of the bounds of possibility).

As for the other staff users, they have a good chance of not even reaching the same Magic as either Niime or Yodel.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Toothache

[Radiant Dragon]

Apolcalypse is + 5 to Magic.

[Toothache]

Yeah I mentally translated +3 to warp range at base as +3 to base Magic for some reason. Fixed.

[dondon151]

Of course, it does mean farming her Dark rank a bit until she can use the thing, but by the time you get it that's certainly doable (drop her an Angelic Robe and Nosfertanking isn't too far out of the bounds of possibility).

It's certainly easier to get Niime to S dark in Ilia because she gets an extra chapter compared to Sacae. Ballistae are kind of dumb in 19 Ilia, but pegasus knights are easy prey. If you can get Niime to solo a squad of pegasus knights, that's already almost 1/4 of the WEXP needed to gain a weapon rank (although she has to watch out for Silver Lance FKs that OHKO her without some sort of large HP or def boost).

[Anouleth]

I couldn't say she's definitely better than Cecilia. Cecilia has midgame staffing, a mount to help with rescue-dropping, and access to Warp herself (obviously, her ~11 range is not as good as Niime's ~15 range, but she also has a mount, which makes her capable of Warping units that are further forward and making use of the Rescue staff).

[dondon151]

Cecilia will probably never get access to Warp. She needs 100 staff uses just to reach A staves. That's like, if she healed every turn for almost half of the entire game.

[Anouleth]

Cecilia will probably never get access to Warp. She needs 100 staff uses just to reach A staves. That's like, if she healed every turn for almost half of the entire game.

Huh, I thought she starts with B Staves rather than C. And I forget that all staves give 1 EXP in this game.

[Florete]

Huh, I thought she starts with B Staves rather than C. And I forget that all staves give 1 EXP in this game.

And I just found another reason this game pisses me off. So much for my plans to have Cecilia Warp me around in my draft.

Just to clarify, all weapons give 1 WExp in this game, and you get two for fatal hits. Now if only staves could kill...

[-Cynthia-]

She still has the rank for Restore though, which is pretty handy. It's basically her availability (and the useful things she does with it, chipping, rescuing, healing etc.) vs. Niime's Warp powers. Don't mind which one is on top really.

Then onto things like Niime vs. Tate, where it's Tate's chapters of flying utility (and eh combat I guess) vs. Niime's few chapters of Warp and maybe some Nosferatu tanking. Kinda hard comparisons to make.

[Anouleth]

Well, B rank is still enough for Rescue.

[dondon151]

I don't really think much of Cecilia's staff rank, because even getting the 50 WEXP that she needs for Physic access isn't going to happen until late in the game. For example, I deployed Clarine in every map possible and she didn't get from D to C staves until the end of chapter 13. Not counting chapter 4, that's 10 maps. Performing rescuing shenanigans kind of dampens staff rank growth, but it's more beneficial in the short run and I'd argue that the immediate benefit outweighs the long term benefits of reaching a higher staff rank a map or two earlier. That said:

She still has the rank for Restore though, which is pretty handy.

I think this is pretty important, actually. There are quite a few mid/lategame maps with multiple status staff users (chapter 14 itself has both Sleep and Silence, although the Silence priest is easy to dodge because he only has like 9 mag), and the player only has 4 staff users available, likely only 3 of which have C staves. Not having Physic rank sucks, but on maps that don't require Warp, I'd much rather deploy Cecilia + Clarine than Saul + Clarine or Ellen + Clarine.

[Anouleth]

I don't really think much of Cecilia's staff rank, because even getting the 50 WEXP that she needs for Physic access isn't going to happen until late in the game. For example, I deployed Clarine in every map possible and she didn't get from D to C staves until the end of chapter 13. Not counting chapter 4, that's 10 maps. Performing rescuing shenanigans kind of dampens staff rank growth, but it's more beneficial in the short run and I'd argue that the immediate benefit outweighs the long term benefits of reaching a higher staff rank a map or two earlier. That said:

It should be considered that because Cecilia has immediate access to Barrier and will need to use Restore immediately, she can probably expect to be healing more often than Clarine, but if staff exp is really that slow, it's probably not going to turn her C into a B, especially considering that a lot of the midgame chapters are quite long in comparison to the ones after Cecilia joins (such as 14x and 15 which will probably be over quite quickly).

If it's the case that staff exp is that slow, wouldn't Saul be at risk of failing to hit B Staves, especially with his movement?

[dondon151]

If it's the case that staff exp is that slow, wouldn't Saul be at risk of failing to hit B Staves, especially with his movement?

Only if you sandbag him. The player needs Saul to hit A by 14x for a warpskip. It's fairly easy if the player unloads a few uses of Barrier - Saul should hit level 10 before he hits B staves unpromoted.

And actually, Saul's poor movement is advantageous for gaining staff WEXP, because he won't be useful in rescue chains.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

Late reply, got stuck without internet for a while.

Not an acceptable tradeoff. Every Angelic Robe that the player buys and uses in chapter 16 is a Boots that the player can't buy in chapter 21. I especially don't think that using an Angelic Robe on a grounded staff user, who shouldn't be getting attacked at all in the first place, will pay off more than a pair of Boots later on.

Who do we need to have how much extra move for only like 4.5 chapters? How is that a higher priority than looking out for those useful units in this game who probably would benefit a lot more from +7 base HP for like half the game? You have some undeniably useful units like magic users, stave users, thieves, and even less bulky fighters like Echidna who want that extra base HP to soak up an extra hit when necessary.

What supports?

Lugh most definitely wants to support her, with the only real competition for his support being Chad and Ray, the latter of which might not even get fielded. Saul, Chad, and Miledy are also useful units who are on her support list. And before you say that she can't support Miledy, it's not unrealistic because the support is 20/+2.

[Dark Sage]

Are you forgetting the move difference between Ellen and Miledy? That's crucial to her not getting the support.

[A2ZOMG]

Why does a move difference even matter? The more move ANY unit has, the more easily they can be in any position they want, including the one required for supporting.

Edited June 30, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[Dark Sage]

Because Miledy will be busy ferrying Roy/actually being in the frontlines for some fighting.

What is with your obsession with coming up with terrible arguments for supports?

[A2ZOMG]

Because it's equally silly to say that a support can't happen just because a unit has more move than another. If anything, that alone makes the support easier because it guarantees that the higher move unit can choose from more sides to end his/her turn on. The only reason that would make a support not happen is if for some reason we absolutely were required to be using maximum move every turn, which isn't a necessity, nor is it prudent given enemies actually have stats in this game. As beastly Miledy is, she wants supports too. Thanks to stat caps, you need higher level weaponry to actually ORKO stuff with Miledy lategame, and having a support makes that easier for her.

Edited June 30, 2011 by A2ZOMG