FE6 HM Tier List

[Dark Sage]

Because it's equally silly to say that a support can't happen just because a unit has more move than another. If anything, that alone makes the support easier because it guarantees that the higher move unit can choose from more sides to end his/her turn on. The only reason that would make a support not happen is if for some reason we absolutely were required to be using maximum move every turn, which isn't a necessity, nor is it prudent given enemies actually have stats in this game. As beastly Miledy is, she wants supports too. Thanks to stat caps, you need higher level weaponry to actually ORKO stuff with Miledy lategame, and having a support makes that easier for her.

What the hell? In order for Miledy to gain the benefits of this support, Ellen would need to be in the front lines, which is a terrible idea due to her fail durability. Not only that, you're also ignoring Miledy has better things to do then hang with Ellen just to get a support that'll never be useful to her.

And who cares that she needs higher level weaponry to ORKO stuff lategame? Everyone does, and weapons like Silver and Killer weapons are common lategame.

[Mekkah]

A22, I understand that you used to discuss and debate during a time where supports that took more than 3 turns to activate were feasible. But nowadays, the assumed turn counts in efficiency playthroughs (such as those assumed in tier lists) are simply too low to have supports, and mounts/fliers are valued more for their insane flexibility on the battlefield. Supports are too slow to activate ever other than something like Roy/Lilina C. Their negligible bonuses do not make up for the time lost.

[dondon151]

The only reason that would make a support not happen is if for some reason we absolutely were required to be using maximum move every turn, which isn't a necessity, nor is it prudent given enemies actually have stats in this game.

According to the goals of this tier list, using maximum move as much as possible is a desirable way to achieve the goals. It's not always situationally a good thing, but mounted units moving ahead of infantry units is a good assumption.

As beastly Miledy is, she wants supports too. Thanks to stat caps, you need higher level weaponry to actually ORKO stuff with Miledy lategame, and having a support makes that easier for her.

ORKOing is only a means to an end. If Miledy doesn't help complete the map appreciably faster with the time that the player puts into her with gaining support points, then it's simply not worth it.

I don't see how this concept is so hard to understand. It's the most basic of cost vs. benefit comparisons.

Edited June 30, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Who do we need to have how much extra move for only like 4.5 chapters? How is that a higher priority than looking out for those useful units in this game who probably would benefit a lot more from +7 base HP for like half the game? You have some undeniably useful units like magic users, stave users, thieves, and even less bulky fighters like Echidna who want that extra base HP to soak up an extra hit when necessary.

Tough for them. Our money goes where it saves most turns.

Lugh most definitely wants to support her, with the only real competition for his support being Chad and Ray, the latter of which might not even get fielded. Saul, Chad, and Miledy are also useful units who are on her support list. And before you say that she can't support Miledy, it's not unrealistic because the support is 20/+2.

Lugh can want whatever he wants, but he's a pretty mediocre unit and won't often be in play (plus the support is slow). Saul is another slow support and levelling healers is slow enough when there's one of them, let alone two. Chad is a thief, who doesn't want to be hanging around a healer on the four or five chapters we will deploy him.

Miledy is unrealistic. Why should Miledy shoot herself in the foot so that Ellen can get her precious support?

Because it's equally silly to say that a support can't happen just because a unit has more move than another. If anything, that alone makes the support easier because it guarantees that the higher move unit can choose from more sides to end his/her turn on. The only reason that would make a support not happen is if for some reason we absolutely were required to be using maximum move every turn, which isn't a necessity, nor is it prudent given enemies actually have stats in this game. As beastly Miledy is, she wants supports too.

Look at the tier list. Look who is at the top. Lance. Alan. Miledy. Percival. Marcus. Do you think, even for a second, that they're up there for having great stats? No, it's because of their movement. We didn't put them up there with the expectation that they'll move six spaces every turn. Having lots of movement in this game is a great asset to have.

Thanks to stat caps, you need higher level weaponry to actually ORKO stuff with Miledy lategame, and having a support makes that easier for her.

Not really. If Miledy needs to be next to some shit 6 move healer, that damages her enemy phase and her movement.

[A2ZOMG]

A22, I understand that you used to discuss and debate during a time where supports that took more than 3 turns to activate were feasible. But nowadays, the assumed turn counts in efficiency playthroughs (such as those assumed in tier lists) are simply too low to have supports, and mounts/fliers are valued more for their insane flexibility on the battlefield. Supports are too slow to activate ever other than something like Roy/Lilina C. Their negligible bonuses do not make up for the time lost.

Okay fair enough, I've been gone for a while. However is it not fair to argue that we also want to actually complete the chapter while minimizing chance of death? There's only so much resources for rushing everything into enemy lines without getting yourself potentially killed at some point. Bolting and enemy status staves are no joke in this game and not something you rush into recklessly if you're trying to keep everyone alive.

And one of the key things about all the top tier units in this game is most of them also are sturdy as hell and capable of dishing out insane amounts of damage. It's why we still have Rutger and Deak up in the top unless I missed something, otherwise Thany would also be above those characters if we solely were looking at movement and versatility.

Edited June 30, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

However is it not fair to argue that we also want to actually complete the chapter while minimizing chance of death?

You can go pretty quickly through some chapters with a low chance of death.

And one of the key things about all the top tier units in this game is most of them also are sturdy as hell and capable of dishing out insane amounts of damage. It's why we still have Rutger and Deak up in the top unless I missed something, otherwise Thany would also be above those characters if we solely were looking at movement and versatility.

Rutger and Dieck join early; Rutger is the most efficient bosskiller for a good part of the game and Dieck's offense is generally better than Alan or Lance's. Dieck may or may not drop in the near future.

[Dark Sage]

@A2ZMOG: How does any of that justify giving Ellen Miledy support. Or Wolt C with Marcus?

Those are retrarded arguments that have no impact on your most recent post and I can't see how you can support them with a straight face.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Sagekitty

[A2ZOMG]

You can go pretty quickly through some chapters with a low chance of death.

Specifics would be good. As far as I'm concerned you have plenty of time to waste when Bolting and Status Staves are involved, which are important for basically a half or third of the game or so. A good number of the Divine Weapon chapters are also fairly time intensive due to the nature of the terrain as well on top of aforementioned long range assaults.

Rutger and Dieck join early; Rutger is the most efficient bosskiller for a good part of the game and Dieck's offense is generally better than Alan or Lance's. Dieck may or may not drop in the near future.

I'd put Miledy above Deak personally, and that's about it. You don't have any competition for Miledy's promotion item besides like...Thany, and you'll definitely have two Elisian Whips easily. Her ability to kill bosses mid to lategame is pretty noteworthy and probably surpasses Rutgers easily given her massive str. Flying is fun for getting to villages and taking out Balistae that nobody else can reach.

@A2ZMOG: How does any of that justify giving Ellen Miledy support. Or Wolt C with Marcus?

C with Ellen is nice when looking at random critical chances. Bosses also have outrageous evade stats and the full hit bonus is appreciated. Walt supporting Marcus isn't hard when Walt doesn't have to be in the way of what Marcus does due to being ranged. A C alone is enough to let Marcus take another hit before dying, and not irrelevant when we give Marcus higher level weaponry, the Javelin/Handaxe or use him to weaken bosses. Edited July 1, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

I'd say that getting Bs with Alan and Lance is far more desirable than any Wolt support. Marcus holds his own combat-wise until chapter 14.

Specifics would be good. As far as I'm concerned you have plenty of time to waste when Bolting and Status Staves are involved, which are important for basically a half or third of the game or so. A good number of the Divine Weapon chapters are also fairly time intensive due to the nature of the terrain as well on top of aforementioned long range assaults.

Chapter 12 I recall was easy to get right. Klein annihilates enemies through the walls and Rutger can OHKO the boss with Durandal. Chapter 9 was pretty reliable too outside of killing the boss in 2 turns. Chapter 8x as well, with the obvious exception of killing the boss in 2 turns.

I also showed that chapter 14x can be easily 2 turned with around a 65% chance of success.

Edited July 1, 2011 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

C with Ellen is nice when looking at random critical chances. Bosses also have outrageous evade stats and the full hit bonus is appreciated. Walt supporting Marcus isn't hard when Walt doesn't have to be in the way of what Marcus does due to being ranged. A C alone is enough to let Marcus take another hit before dying, and not irrelevant when we give Marcus higher level weaponry, the Javelin/Handaxe or use him to weaken bosses.

Random critical chances is worth gimping Miledy's move? Are you mad? And since when is 5 hit at a C going to offset throne bonuses fully? I say C and not B or A because Miledy getting anything more than a C is the dream of a fevered madman. Getting a C alone is unlikely. And since when is a grand total of 1 defense going to allow Marcus to take another hit? Where's your evidence?

[dondon151]

Pretty sure he means increasing Miledy's CEV, not her crit.

[Anouleth]

Random critical chances is worth gimping Miledy's move? Are you mad? And since when is 5 hit at a C going to offset throne bonuses fully? I say C and not B or A because Miledy getting anything more than a C is the dream of a fevered madman. Getting a C alone is unlikely. And since when is a grand total of 1 defense going to allow Marcus to take another hit? Where's your evidence?

The problem is more that while the support is nice (decent bonuses), Marcus has to gimp himself to build it and it's with a unit we won't be deploying for very long (Sue shows up and is just better, and evenSue isn't very good). Marcus would be much better off taking one of the many other good supports available to him with Lance, Alan, or even Roy.

[Dark Sage]

The problem is more that while the support is nice (decent bonuses), Marcus has to gimp himself to build it and it's with a unit we won't be deploying for very long (Sue shows up and is just better, and evenSue isn't very good). Marcus would be much better off taking one of the many other good supports available to him with Lance, Alan, or even Roy.

I know that. That is such common knowledge that I didn't think I should have to spell it out for him. And Marcus pretty much gains next to no benefit from the support either.

I mean seriously. What's one more point of defense going to do with Marcus's #RKO chances?

[grandjackal]

Well, I made a post saying pretty much what was already said by everyone, since I didn't notice a full new page of discussion had happened. Teaches me to jump the gun.

So...Yeah. What's with this incesent drive thinking we are in desperate need of supports? Pretty sure we went through that ages ago.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

I know that. That is such common knowledge that I didn't think I should have to spell it out for him. And Marcus pretty much gains next to no benefit from the support either.

I mean seriously. What's one more point of defense going to do with Marcus's #RKO chances?

Improve them. For someone like Marcus who takes part in protracted enemy phase action, +5 avoid and +1DEF adds up. Say he engages in combat 15 times over the course of the chapter. The support allows him to avoid one attack he wouldn't ordinarily and prevents 15 damage total, which can easily be the difference between living and dying, or being able to take a player phase and needing to heal.

[dondon151]

That's only assuming that Marcus will get hit all 15 times.

[grandjackal]

So now to a better point to be made, of which dondon brought up with Deick dropping. I could see that, personally. He has his moments (for example, how bad he wrecks chapter 2), but I don't think he has such profound effects on the turncount like a lot of the top tier dudes like Marcus's entire earlygame, or Miledy being a powerhouse transporter that flies and refuses to die, or the dancers, or Rutger being the ultimate bosskiller in a game where bosses on these insane thrones and poor weapon accuracy making him more than a blessing.

Could see him at top of high above Clarine and Gonzales, seeing as Clarine is slowly being seen more as just a generic healbot on a horse, and Gonzales due to his unreliable hit despite him being amazing generally anywhere else.

[Radiant Dragon]

He definitely needs to drop, but I think the bottom of Top Tier is probably better than the top of High Tier. He's our best offensive unit from the moment he joins until Rutger shows up (and even then, more great units are always better than less), and he doesn't really ever slow down. Gaining 1-2 range and WTA over Wyverns once he promotes really helps as well, despite 'only' having 6 move. Does he run into doubling problems later on? That's the only way I can see him dropping out of Top Tier.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[dondon151]

One of the problems with dropping a lot of characters is that there's so many characters in this game that tiers get really inflated. I'd personally encourage Dieck dropping to the top of high, Gonzales and Echidna dropping into upper mid, Saul and Zealot rising into high, and Fir and Lot dropping into mid, among other changes.

I think that settles out the top 3 tiers fairly nicely, though. I'm slightly leery on Gonzales even being in there, but he is a potent growth unit.

Edited July 1, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

One of the problems with dropping a lot of characters is that there's so many characters in this game that tiers get really inflated. I'd personally encourage Dieck dropping to the top of high, Gonzales and Echidna dropping into upper mid, Saul and Zealot rising into high, and Fir and Lot dropping into mid, among other changes.

I wouldn't mind agreeing to those changes. I also don't see too big an issue with tiers being inflated, considering this game's units are quite a bit more slanted in use than most.

I think that settles out the top 3 tiers fairly nicely, though. I'm slightly leery on Gonzales even being in there, but he is a potent growth unit.

Well, he's also got the problem of an unreliable start, so I'm not quite as leery. If there's anyone I'd be leery about dropping, it'd be Echidna.

[Dark Sage]

You know, I still don't see why Roy is above Lugh.

[Colonel M]

dondon just hates growth units of fucking course.

Regardless, I think those changes sound good. Any last objections to the following:

- Dieck to Top of High

- Gonzo and Echinda to Upper Mid

- Zealot and Saul to High

- Sue (Ilia) up a... little bit?

- Fir and Lot to Mid

I also question where Klein goes in all of this since he doesn't really seem like a Mid Tier character, but that's probably my opinion. Tate too but that probably unravels a weird situation.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Kitty M

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Colonel M]

Kind of like how I discussed on IRC, I think Klein > Echinda is good for Sacae, and Klein < Echinda for Ilia.