FE6 HM Tier List

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Colonel M]

Changes made. Cue sexual jokes with Dieck on top of Clarine. Keep the discussion rolling since there's probably a lot more to talk about.

(Also made one controversial change, see if you can spot it!)

[Vykan12]

(Also made one controversial change, see if you can spot it!)

Zealot in high tier?

Edit: Oops, confused him for Zeiss. Will keep searching.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

Zealot in high tier?

I guess that's one of them, the other had more recent events with my best friend Inui.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[-Cynthia-]

Not sure about all these new changes. I mean Zealot an entire tier above Echidna, really? He's useful for the chapters before she shows up, I'll grant him that, but he's not *that* good. Once she shows up, he's looking at a 3 point Str gap, 7 point Skl gap, and a 5 point Spd gap, the Spd being pretty important since 13 AS doesn't double much at all once the game goes on.

Edited July 5, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

He has more chapters and 8 move with canto after rescuing. The gaps are also a little smaller since Zealot will have gained levels by chapter 11.

In a lot of circumstances, I'd rather take Zealot over Echidna just because of the rescuing. The former does fine up until at least chapter 13, and continues to perform adequately if most of what he faces are slower enemy types like cavaliers and pegasus knights.

[Janissary]

Let's not forget his complete weapon triangle control.

[-Cynthia-]

He has more chapters and 8 move with canto after rescuing. The gaps are also a little smaller since Zealot will have gained levels by chapter 11.

In a lot of circumstances, I'd rather take Zealot over Echidna just because of the rescuing. The former does fine up until at least chapter 13, and continues to perform adequately if most of what he faces are slower enemy types like cavaliers and pegasus knights.

Even after 2 levels, Zealot probably hasn't gained Spd or Skl and only has like a 50% chance of proccing Str, so the gaps don't close very much.

Enemies have to be pretty slow for Zealot to double them. Even in C13 he only gets the Cavaliers if they have the Steel Lance equipped, if they decide to switch to Javelins/have other weapons equipped, he's out of luck. Even without the Body Ring, Echidna's 16 AS with the Killer Axe comfortably doubles almost all the Cavaliers here. This trend continues for...pretty much the rest of the game, Echinda doubling things with higher Hit/Str/Crit than Zealot.

I can accept Zealot>Echidna based on him being more useful in C7-11 than she is from 12-E, but I don't think this constitutes a tier's worth of difference between the two of them. Zealot is really an obsolete combatant by C13, and he's not *that* good from C7-C13 to justify High tier IMO. Other "useful for a few chapters" characters like Niime are in Upper Mid, that seems like a better place for him to be. (Marcus is an exception, since he's your best unit for the first few chapters, unlike Zealot who is merely good).

@weapons triangle Pretty minor advantage, since Echidna has partial WTC and more Hit anyway. Treck gets full WTC control too.

[dondon151]

Zealot is your best unit from chapters 7-13, though. I also had him at level 4 going into chapter 11 and level 5 going into chapter 12, at which point he has a 68.4% chance of gaining at least 1 point of str and a 59.1% chance of gaining at least 1 point of spd.

[Dark Sage]

I honestly don't buy Echidna in Upper Mid, or at least that low, let alone being below Gonzales. Simply put, she has 18 base speed and with the Body Ring, she has 11 Con, which is great and for pretty much the rest of the game, she's doubling everything and has access to axes.

She does have some durability problems admittedly, but I don't think she should be that low in Upper Mid. Definitely above Gonzales and I'd like to start with her above Niime, if only for the availability advantage.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Sagekitty

[grandjackal]

While I dunno about her being in Upper Mid or not, or being below Niime as I'm not quite sure how to feel about that other than lolWarp, but I would agree to Echidna>Gonzales. Gonzales is basically a statistical beast, but the bigger problem I have with him is that his offense is often unreliable, while Echidna could be doing things like doubling with killer axes. I get the feeling they're kinda close though. Echidna has 6 move, and doesn't need a hero crest, while Gonzales is tough as a boulder and has a far better future. Ther offense could be considered somewhat similar. While Gonzales is basically hit and miss gambling with the payoff of killing even the toughest things with iron, Echidna does hers through Killer Axe crit. Though more expensive, and having less uses than iron, even f she fails to crit she'll still be quite a bit more likely to land her blows as to still do more damage.

Personalyl speaking though, I'd go with consistancy and coming in resource free more than gambles with humongous payoff.

[Vykan12]

^ Why can't Gonzales use killer axes?

[Dark Sage]

I actually think Echidna could go above Cecilia for a few reasons:

1. Availability. Even if it's only Chapter 12, 12x, and 13, she still has an availability advantage over Cecilia and she's very useful in those chapters.

2. Better stats and combat. It goes without saying that Echidna's combat is arguably superior to Cecilia's. 10 AS is borderline doubled by various enemies and Cecilia's 30 HP/7 defense combo is pretty bad. Echidna not only consistently doubles, she also has access to axes and has some existent durability, plus access to Killer and Silver weaponry.

3. Cecilia does have Staff utility, but her rank only starts at C. So she can't use Physic until late in the game because of how slow it is to build staff rank and by the time she gets access to Warp, the game's pretty much over.

I'm not contesting the usefulness of a mounted healer, but Echidna's combat is impressing me more here.

@Vykan: Unfortunately Gonzales does have a bad start. He's not doubling anything early on except enemies with Steel Axes and he has pretty garbage hit even with a Killer Axe. To clarify, base Gonzales has 85 hit with a Killer Axe. That's horrible.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Vykan12]

If we want to discuss Gonzales vs Echidna in detail, I would like to know if this post ever got addressed.

[dondon151]

Echidna's combat doesn't impress me at all. She can't ORKO anything without proccing a crit, which is in the same boat as Marcus, Zealot, and everyone else.

[-Cynthia-]

That Gonzales comparison gives him way too many levels. Somehow he's facing C11 Cavaliers at 15/1? His leveling rate is pretty fast, but he's not gaining that many levels unless we wait around and feed him kills.

@dondon Except for the fact that 16-18 AS doubles a lot more enemy types than 13-14 in the C13 and beyond world. She also has more Hit than they do. Claiming her offense is the same as Marcus/Zealot is just stupid.

Zealot's also not our best unit from C7-C11, he's easily outclassed by a promoted Lance/Alan. You could also argue Rutger for bosskilling utility.

[dondon151]

@dondon Except for the fact that 16-18 AS doubles a lot more enemy types than 13-14 in the C13 and beyond world. She also has more Hit than they do. Claiming her offense is the same as Marcus/Zealot is just stupid.

Please point me to where I said that Echidna's offense is the same as that of Marcus or Zealot. Oh, wait, I never said that. I said that she can't ORKO without crits, which means that she doesn't have a significant win against the enemy types that both double. There are quite a few of them, too.

Here's a fairly comprehensive list of relevant enemies that Echidna doubles but Zealot (14 AS) doesn't from chapters 12-15:

Chapter 12

- 12 AS warrior

- 11 AS sniper

Chapter 12x

- 11 AS druid (8 AS when equipped with Eclipse, and Zealot cleanly ORKOs with Silver Lance)

Chapter 13

- 12 AS cavalier (all 2 of the ones with Killer Lance or Killing Edge, and 1 of them with Steel Sword)

- 12 AS paladins (3 of them)

- 11 AS mage (1 or 2 of them)

- 11 AS sniper

Chapter 14

- Desert; Zealot shouldn't even be deployed

Chapter 14x

- Probably warpskipped

Chapter 15

- 14 AS mercenaries (2 with Armorslayer)

- 13 AS wyvern rider (1 with Silver Lance)

- 13 AS snipers (2 with Silver Bow)

That's not a lot of enemies that Echidna has a clear advantage against. Many of the enemies in chapter 13 are nearly OHKO'd or take a massive amount of damage from cavalry-effective weapons. Echidna only really wins against the smattering of promoted enemies and mages - Zealot easily wipes the floor with generic unpromoted mooks.

Then consider: Zealot (and Marcus) usually see combat before other units, anyway.

Zealot's also not our best unit from C7-C11, he's easily outclassed by a promoted Lance/Alan.

Nuh-uh, no way. First problem is that Lance or Allen can't be promoted until chapter 8x at the earliest. Zealot has a massive advantage in chapter 7 with being able to ORKO most enemy types on the mapwith a bit of inventory shuffling (cavaliers with Silver Lance, mages with Javelin, soldiers with Steel Axe, etc.). Chapter 8 is also a huge advantage with the map taking around 14-15 turns at minimum to complete, making a 1 move advantage more significant.

Next problem is that 10/1 Lance or Allen aren't significantly superior to Marcus or Zealot in terms of raw parameters and lose weapon ranks handily. They won't have A lances for Silver Lances (which are useful in the Western Isles against mercenaries). They might not have C swords for Killing Edges. They definitely won't have C axes for Killer Axes. Granted, most of these maps involve ganging up on fighters with Steel Swords and collaborating on KOs, but little things are important when they come up.

Last problem: do you really want to stunt Lance's or Allen's potential by promoting them at level 10?

You could also argue Rutger for bosskilling utility.

Someone needs to get Roy and Rutger to the gate.

Finally, a question relevant to the lategame maps: who's a better filler, an 8 move mounted unit or an nth string 6 move combat unit? This question does have a correct answer.

Edited July 5, 2011 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

Please point me to where I said that Echidna's offense is the same as that of Marcus or Zealot. Oh, wait, I never said that. I said that she can't ORKO without crits, which means that she doesn't have a significant win against the enemy types that both double. There are quite a few of them, too.

Here's a fairly comprehensive list of relevant enemies that Echidna doubles but Zealot (14 AS) doesn't from chapters 12-15:

Chapter 12

- 12 AS warrior

- 11 AS sniper

Chapter 12x

- 11 AS druid (8 AS when equipped with Eclipse, and Zealot cleanly ORKOs with Silver Lance)

Chapter 13

- 12 AS cavalier (all 2 of the ones with Killer Lance or Killing Edge, and 1 of them with Steel Sword)

- 12 AS paladins (3 of them)

- 11 AS mage (1 or 2 of them)

- 11 AS sniper

Chapter 14

- Desert; Zealot shouldn't even be deployed

Chapter 14x

- Probably warpskipped

Chapter 15

- 14 AS mercenaries (2 with Armorslayer)

- 13 AS wyvern rider (1 with Silver Lance)

- 13 AS snipers (2 with Silver Bow)

That's not a lot of enemies that Echidna has a clear advantage against. Many of the enemies in chapter 13 are nearly OHKO'd or take a massive amount of damage from cavalry-effective weapons. Echidna only really wins against the smattering of promoted enemies and mages - Zealot easily wipes the floor with generic unpromoted mooks.

This list

A. Doesn't account for enemies switching weapons. Cavaliers switching from Steel Lances to Javelins generally means that Zealot no longer doubles them at 1-2 range, while Echinda does, a lot more enemy types.

B. Assumes 14 AS on Zealot, which is generous. Being a promoted unit means he doesn't level very quickly and he has a 20% Spd growth. A 13 AS Zealot misses more doubles. Your level estimates for him are probably inflated because the other units around him were worse than normal.

Nuh-uh, no way. First problem is that Lance or Allen can't be promoted until chapter 8x at the earliest. Zealot has a massive advantage in chapter 7 with being able to ORKO most enemy types on the mapwith a bit of inventory shuffling (cavaliers with Silver Lance, mages with Javelin, soldiers with Steel Axe, etc.). Chapter 8 is also a huge advantage with the map taking around 14-15 turns at minimum to complete, making a 1 move advantage more significant.

Next problem is that 10/1 Lance or Allen aren't significantly superior to Marcus or Zealot in terms of raw parameters and lose weapon ranks handily. They won't have A lances for Silver Lances (which are useful in the Western Isles against mercenaries). They might not have C swords for Killing Edges. They definitely won't have C axes for Killer Axes. Granted, most of these maps involve ganging up on fighters with Steel Swords and collaborating on KOs, but little things are important when they come up.

A. Why are you only assuming a 10/1 Lance/Alan coming out of 8x? Mine were significantly higher.

B. Having higher weapon ranks isn't all that great when there aren't many Killers/Silvers to go around anyway. The Silver Lance is probably nearly used up by the time Zealot appears, Killing Edges are probably mainly used by Rutger to kill bosses (and Lance/Alan should have the rank for them anyway considering +1 sword rank on promotion). There's the Killer Axe I guess, but not sure when Zealot is hitting C Axes.

Someone needs to get Roy and Rutger to the gate.

Lots of units not named Zealot can do this. Horse utility is hardly unique at the point of the game where Zealot joins.

Finally, a question relevant to the lategame maps: who's a better filler, an 8 move mounted unit or an nth string 6 move combat unit? This question does have a correct answer.

Read the first post dondon. We're not 'blitzkrieging' through the game, being able to make perfect rescue chains is not that valuable.

Like I said, I'm fine with Zealot>Echidna, but not Zealot in High tier. If high Mov with crappy combat is that valuable, Treck/Sue/Noah should probably go up.

Edited July 5, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

A. Doesn't account for enemies switching weapons. Cavaliers switching from Steel Lances to Javelins generally means that Zealot no longer doubles them at 1-2 range, while Echinda does, a lot more enemy types.

Only if Zealot decides to handicap himself with Hand Axes instead of Javelins on enemy phase - 14 AS still doubles 10 AS, which is what Javelin cavaliers have. On player phase, Killer Axes rule the day. Or Horseslayer/Halberd. The enemy groups approach you before your units enter their range, which means that there's a good chance the player won't even be fighting all of them on a particular enemy phase.

B. Assumes 14 AS on Zealot, which is generous. Being a promoted unit means he doesn't level very quickly and he has a 20% Spd growth. A 13 AS Zealot misses more doubles. Your level estimates for him are probably inflated because the other units around him were worse than normal.

It's hard to be better than Zealot during that part of the game, growths or no growths. I didn't have any problems with Zealot having 13 AS and Marcus and Noah having 11 AS when I did chapter 13.

A. Why are you only assuming a 10/1 Lance/Alan coming out of 8x? Mine were significantly higher.

Maybe because I had a level 10 Noah coming out of 8x? Or only a level 9 Dieck going into chapter 8? And Dieck killed a lot of shit before then. Or would you rather I assume an even lower level for Lance and Allen because I had them at like level 3 (for obvious reasons) by the end of 8x? I think 9 chapters for 9 levels is a fairly reasonable assumption considering that a couple of them are pretty unfriendly to the cavaliers combat wise. Regardless, 11/1 or 12/1 don't make much of a functional difference when you're trying to whack at fighters with Steel Swords.

B. Having higher weapon ranks isn't all that great when there aren't many Killers/Silvers to go around anyway. The Silver Lance is probably nearly used up by the time Zealot appears, Killing Edges are probably mainly used by Rutger to kill bosses (and Lance/Alan should have the rank for them anyway considering +1 sword rank on promotion). There's the Killer Axe I guess, but not sure when Zealot is hitting C Axes.

I broke the first Silver Lance and left 9 uses on the one from chapter 6 after completing 12x. I didn't conserve them particularly carefully either - Marcus hogged the thing in chapter 4 and he and Zealot used it fairly indiscriminately against random chapter 7 cavaliers and mercenaries in other chapters. There's definitely uses to go around.

As for Lance and Alan reaching C swords, realize that they have to gain an entire weapon rank, which is not that easy. That's like, over 30 rounds of combat with just swords assuming that they kill something half the time and don't double. They'd rather be using lances against enemy types that don't wield axes, which disappear for a few maps during earlygame.

Lots of units not named Zealot can do this. Horse utility is hardly unique at the point of the game where Zealot joins.

The difference between Zealot and other units is that Zealot can handle combat while other units can't.

Read the first post dondon. We're not 'blitzkrieging' through the game, being able to make perfect rescue chains is not that valuable.

Of course. I don't think fighting well is all that valuable either. If you chip at an enemy long enough, it'll die!

Like I said, I'm fine with Zealot>Echidna, but not Zealot in High tier. If high Mov with crappy combat is that valuable, Treck/Sue/Noah should probably go up.

Zealot in high tier is an appropriate response to Marcus in top tier. They're basically the same unit, except Zealot has 6 fewer maps. Your likening of Zealot to lower mid and mid tier chumps is severely underestimating his combat; Treck is struggling to 4HKO enemies in chapter 10 and on, Sue's damage output is half that of Zealot's and occurs far less often, and Noah is at best a slightly inferior Zealot that requires 3 levels of training and a Knight Crest.

Edited July 5, 2011 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

^ Why can't Gonzales use killer axes?

Grandjackal never gives unpromoted axe users Killer Axes. It goes against his philosophy.

[Colonel M]

If high Mov with crappy combat is that valuable

I never knew ORKOing in the Western Isles was considered crappy combat! Now tell me when the fuck the other shit ass units like Treck are doing it.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Kitty M

[Janissary]

I'm probably just dumb, but why is Astohl in high? I can buy Chad, but Astohl?

[Dark Sage]

He's your best thief as soon as he joins and he does not need a Robe and Pure Water to survive Bolting/Purge later on in the game. He also has a C rank in swords and has pretty good speed, so he can serve as a passable combatant on the Isles when armed with a Killing Edge or a Light Brand.

[Balcerzak]

Why is Karel above Dorothy? His availability is ridiculously bad, and his join map can't even count much to his credit because it's not a free slot, in that we have to take Fir or Bartre. If Fir is untrained we could just be substituting her spot and taking any other quality combat unit. If Fir is trained, she'll compete with him for deployment in final. (They both double, obviously, neither will OHKO mamkutes with Durandal, and both are 2HKO'd back. In other words their performance is completely identical in all ways that matter.)

Dorothy has useful circumstances in her joining chapter, and joins at a time where any chip you can get on your team is appreciated. Sure she lacks a pony like Sue, and sure Archers get a hard time on efficiency lists, but I would think her contributions anywhere one would deploy her are more positive than anything Karel brings to the table.