FE6 HM Tier List

[Anouleth]

If it weren't for Roy letting Guinevere rejoin your side in C13, she wouldn't be able to lead you to 21x. In fact, Roy is responsible for getting almost everyone in the game to join your side, his conversations are just part of cutscenes instead of battlefield events.

[frat_tastic]

Fuck it, you're right. I don't want to deal with inconsistencies or anything difficult/controversial. Its not my style.

[Colonel M]

Alright we got our last laughs done? I think it's time to revert it back to the old list. I wasn't going to keep the way it is long anyhow.

[GreatEclipse]

On a more serious note, Sophia > Elfin. The opportunity cost of recruiting him exceeds anything he can ever do on his own even when fielded, while Sophia can sit on the bench for free.

[frat_tastic]

Not that I totally disagree, but could you outline what the opportunity cost is just so we all know?

[Anouleth]

On a more serious note, Sophia > Elfin. The opportunity cost of recruiting him exceeds anything he can ever do on his own even when fielded, while Sophia can sit on the bench for free.

I shall answer you by quoting the OP:

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements. This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team. I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them. A unit that is forced is considered a positive under most circumstances with the rare occassion that they make the Chapter(s) completely inefficient. For example, while Ward is considered a positive throughout his earlygame chapters due to what amount of damage counts, units such as Wendy can have profound negatives because they have major negatives that outweigh their minor positives. This is also to prevent auto-toping Roy due to not taking up a unit slot.

So we cannot assume that Sophia is not sitting on the bench, because if we are, we're not really considering how good she really is.

[GreatEclipse]

Echidna + A Gonzales + Lamum + Sophia sitting on the bench > Bartre + B Gonzales + Elfin

If you force Sophia to be fielded even when her presence would only slow you down, then you must do the same for Marcus and Zealot.

Edited April 2, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[frat_tastic]

A couple things.

One, when we were talking about Wendy and Sophia, apparantly everyone (myself not included) thought that we wouldn't actually be seriously using either Wendy or Sophia, since they both suck so horribly. I find this to be terribly inconsistant, since we are using all the other units, but apparantly this is the mentality in place.

Two, it could still very well be that the opportunity cost of Elphin is far higher than the cost of having to use Sofia. I guess this is up to interpretation, but its not out of the question I guess.

[Colonel M]

One, when we were talking about Wendy and Sophia, apparantly everyone (myself not included) thought that we wouldn't actually be seriously using either Wendy or Sophia, since they both suck so horribly. I find this to be terribly inconsistant, since we are using all the other units, but apparantly this is the mentality in place.

If we were to use them seriously, Sophia is still much better than Wendy. Honestly, just try to use her in the Western Isles. You'll facepalm all over the place just trying to figure out how 4 Mov is close to efficient. You can also give Sophia 9 levels, give her the Guiding Ring, and she can be a Healbot on the side.

If you force Sophia to be fielded even when her presence would only slow you down, then you must do the same for Marcus and Zealot.

""When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements. This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team. I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them. A unit that is forced is considered a positive under most circumstances with the rare occassion that they make the Chapter(s) completely inefficient. For example, while Ward is considered a positive throughout his earlygame chapters due to what amount of damage counts, units such as Wendy can have profound negatives because they have major negatives that outweigh their minor positives. This is also to prevent auto-toping Roy due to not taking up a unit slot."

Marcus and Zealot are already covered.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Colonel M

[frat_tastic]

Try giving Sofia those 9 levels. I guarantee its harder than using Wendy in the Western Isles. Hello base 15 HP, 2 AS, 1 DEF. Thats just god awful. Plus her base hit is atrocious for this part of the game.

[Anouleth]

Echidna + A Gonzales + Lamum + Sophia sitting on the bench > Bartre + B Gonzales + Elfin

If you force Sophia to be fielded even when her presence would only slow you down, then you must do the same for Marcus and Zealot.

Well, can you tell me exactly why the hell Sophia gets to take credit for Echidna and Lalum's work, when all she does is sit on the bench and do nothing? If you're tiering Sophia, send her out into the field and we'll see how she does - otherwise, you're not tiering her, you're tiering an empty deployment slot.

Also, Colonel addresses the Marcus/Zealot issue, you would know this if you read the OP:

This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team.

So a unit that is bad later on is penalised less than a unit that is bad earlier on.

EDIT: Oh, the Colonel beat me to it. I guess I know the M stands for Mastermind.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Anouleth

[GreatEclipse]

I read the rules. The problem is that the rules are inconsistent. Why is Marcus allowed to bail on you before adding any suck to the team, but Sophia is not given the same option?

If you hold the benefits of the A rout over Elfin (And if you punish Karel for denying you Harken, I imagine you do), then he is worse that an empty slot. A Sophia who is not deployed is therefore better than an empty slot.

Edited April 2, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Colonel M]

Try giving Sofia those 9 levels. I guarantee its harder than using Wendy in the Western Isles. Hello base 15 HP, 2 AS, 1 DEF. Thats just god awful. Plus her base hit is atrocious for this part of the game.

At least she has the option to get out of her suck. You're stuck with shit-tastic Wendy unless you sandbag a Crest off of a Cavalier.

Yes her offense and defense suck, but if we're making claims that Wendy can get kills any more efficiently than Sophia I'd almost have to call it a little bit absurd. Wendy's Hit is only "decent" with a Slim Lance, and then it's backed by low Atk.

I read the rules. The problem is that the rules are inconsistent. Why is Marcus allowed to bail on you before adding any suck to the team, but Sophia is not given the same option?

Because Sophia is far from a utility unit in the first place?

Edited April 2, 2010 by Colonel M

[Anouleth]

I read the rules. The problem is that the rules are inconsistent. Why is Marcus allowed to bail on you before adding any suck to the team, but Sophia is not given the same option?

The rule is not inconsistent. If Sophia was to bail before adding any suck to the team, she wouldn't exist ever and we'd be tiering an empty deployment slot, which is absurd and doesn't really tell us anything about how good or bad Sophia is. You might as well put Dayan on the Ilia route or Yunno on the Sacae route. Marcus may bail at some point, but even if he does he still exists for a period of time and is thus tierable.

[GreatEclipse]

Fine, Sophia in chapter 14 vs. Elfin - the benefits of the A rout. I still say Sophia wins. And what, exactly, is a utility unit? I thought utility is simply non-combat benefits. Marcus is no more a utility unit than Allan and Lance.

[frat_tastic]

No, Sofia always sucks. Being literally your worst healer doesn't make her good. Every other person who can heal is better than Sofia. Ellen, Lugh, Clarine, Saul, Cecilia, Yodel, Niime, Hugh (is that it?). Sofia is dead last. Just because she gets staves eventually when she promotes (in which doing so sandbags another caster out of a ring btw) doesn't suddenly make her good or useful.

Both are terrible. Wendy at least doesn't die if I look at her wrong. She can build up some semblence of durability. I would claim that Wendy can kill things easier than Sofia can. Fortunately for Wendy, the enemies suck more when she joins than when Sofia joins.

Also, I wouldn't say Sofia is taking credit for Echidna and Lalum's work. She just doesn't deny you those two, which choosing Elphin does.

On the subject of Elphin to bottom tier, I would also move some other units around. Choosing Echidna also means I don't get to use Elphin, who I would find to be a totally superior unit, both better than Echidna and the good Gonzales. They both have the opportunity cost of costing me Elphin. And depending on how quickly units are getting supports, Elphin is better than Lalum. I don't disagree with the logic behind the issue, although I think more moves need to take place than just tossing Elphin into bottom.

[Life]

Fine, Sophia in chapter 14 vs. Elfin - the benefits of the A rout. I still say Sophia wins. And what, exactly, is a utility unit? I thought utility is simply non-combat benefits. Marcus is no more a utility unit than Allan and Lance.

With this logic, I can say that Sophia in Chapter 14 (in which she is fucking horrible and I don't understand why you don't get this) is better than everyone who you pick up on either A or B routes. Or am I missing something?

[frat_tastic]

I think the point is that the opportunity cost of recruiting Elphin (losing out on Lalum, Echidna, and A-Gonzales) hurts you more than using Sofia. The logic behind it is sound, it just depends on whether or not you agree that the opportunity cost of recruiting Elphin is actually that high.

Personally, I don't, but I see where GE's argument is coming from. While I'd consider Echidna>Bartre, I don't know that its by a hugely significant amount (enough to be a major factor in recruiting Elphin). The biggest issue I see is really A Gonzales>B Gonzales. Like I said earlier, I find Elphin to be better than Lalum, depending on how we view supports and how fast we get them, so I'd say the only significant thing out of this is the Gonzales factor, which I find to be kind of minor. I don't see it putting Elphin in bottom, but I do agree that all the A-Exclusive and B-Exclusive units to need have their opportunity costs taken into account, which they currently aren't IIRC.

[GreatEclipse]

With this logic, I can say that Sophia in Chapter 14 (in which she is fucking horrible and I don't understand why you don't get this) is better than everyone who you pick up on either A or B routes. Or am I missing something?

No, you understand the point completely.

[Life]

No, you understand the point completely.

But Sophia is horrible. I'm forced to field her in Chapter 14 and she's basically a liability (I think Shire pointed out her shit durability). How is this somehow better than Elphin even when you count the number of better units he screws you out of? He's still a Bard and it seems like you're just handwaving this fact.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[GreatEclipse]

Sophia only needs to outperform an empty slot if you believe in accounting for the opportunity cost of taking the B rout. The team with Sophia in chapter 14 still has a performer, but the team with Elfin the entire game has a lesser Gonzales and no Echidna.

Once again, I am only making a point. I do not honesty believe Sophia > Elfin.

[CATS]

But guys, you're all forgetting the important thing here. Wendy can triangle-attack. If you use her for triangle-attacking, suddenly her offense is rly good, or at least not bad. Her base Atk with a steel lance is already 14 and she gets guaranteed crits. Fighters in the western isles? No problem! No one can one-round them anyways, so just weaken it with somebody, then send in Wendy to finish it with a triangle-attack. Sure, it's totally inefficient, but so is using Wendy, so who cares? You might as well try to set things up so she has the potential to sort of do something, and Sophia really doesn't have that option. Wendy > Sophia.

[Dat Nick]

Sophia has accuracy and has it at 2 range. It doesn't matter that Wendy doesn't do god-awful in C8. She still does awful overall, and starts way behind the rest of the team when she shows, and her 4 move isn't going to help her catch up. Then C9 hits and she's totally boned. ORKOd by everything and her bad accuracy just got worse. Sophia is the complete opposite definition of good, but it's at least possible to feed her kills.

[CATS]

But that's only if Wendy isn't allowed to triangle-attack. Wendy + triangle-attack doesn't have worse offense than your typical top or high tier unit during the midgame, even against axes in the isles. Sophia? She's still bottom tier, no matter how many accomodations you might make for her.

[Dat Nick]

And here I was, thinking your above argument was sarcastic...