FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Pardon me on that Eclipse, misread the post.

[Dark Sage]

I said this before and I'll say it again. Make a sticky (or update one) on the definition of efficency. That way, we won't have debates like this all the time.

Also please stop talking about armors. They suck, they can't get better (well Barth can and even that's pushing it) and the only one worth using is Douglas. Why do we continue to debate about armors anyway?

[frat_tastic]

As opposed to what? What else would you like to discuss that is so much more interesting?

[CATS]

I said this before and I'll say it again. Make a sticky (or update one) on the definition of efficency. That way, we won't have debates like this all the time.

Can't do that if efficiency doesn't have a definition. Notice that it doesn't. I tried to make a topic aimed at settling on a definition, for this specific purpose (getting discussions about it out of the tier list); nothing was decided.

Also please stop talking about armors. They suck, they can't get better (well Barth can and even that's pushing it) and the only one worth using is Douglas. Why do we continue to debate about armors anyway?

My theory is that people are attracted to a weak argument. Make a valid argument or atleast a decent one, people see it, they just go "meh" and don't say anything. But come in and post Karla > Raven, try to defend it, see how many people gang up on you and how much they're willing to discuss it. Since the argument is both wrong and obviously wrong, it both needs to be countered and is easy to counter, which results in alot of people who are willing to discuss it (and by discuss I mean bash).

Edited April 6, 2010 by CATS

[GreatEclipse]

ROFL, that is so true. I should not have backed down so quickly on Sophia > Elfin.

[Dark Sage]

Can't do that if efficiency doesn't have a definition. Notice that it doesn't. I tried to make a topic aimed at settling on a definition, for this specific purpose (getting discussions about it out of the tier list); nothing was decided.

I know and I want a clear cut definition, but given all of what's been going on, you'd have more success trying to get everyone in the world to agree completely who the best U.S president is than getting a definition. Which is too bad because if we're going to make even better tier lists, we're going to need to buckle down and agree on a definition on efficency.

My theory is that people are attracted to a weak argument. Make a valid argument or atleast a decent one, people see it, they just go "meh" and don't say anything. But come in and post Karla > Raven, try to defend it, see how many people gang up on you and how much they're willing to discuss it. Since the argument is both wrong and obviously wrong, it both needs to be countered and is easy to counter, which results in alot of people who are willing to discuss it (and by discuss I mean bash).

That is so true on so many levels.

Oh and frat_tastic, if you actually read my earlier posts, you'd know what I'd like to discuss. Shin vs Gonzales and Lilina's placement. I'm sorry if it came out harsh, but c'mon, you should at least acknowledge that the Armor Fail thing has been done to death here.

[CATS]

I know and I want a clear cut definition, but given all of what's been going on, you'd have more success trying to get everyone in the world to agree completely who the best U.S president is than getting a definition. Which is too bad because if we're going to make even better tier lists, we're going to need to buckle down and agree on a definition on efficency.

Yep. I wanted such a definition too, but we can see how much luck I had in acquiring one. Maybe you'll be able to do better, after all, I'm usually pretty bad at this stuff (just look at my recent posts, Wendy > Sophia, Nino > Pent, what am I thinking?).

Meanwhile, if you asked people who post here whether or not their tier lists are objective, I wonder what they would say.

[GreatEclipse]

I was under the impression that we want the lowest turn count possible, and that the best units are the ones that save the most turns. A unit needs to save 20-30 turns on their own merits to even stand a chance vs. Marcus under such a system (Good luck with that, Echidna), so I can only conclude it means something else.

[Dark Sage]

I always thought that we should judge each character by his own merits and how he contributes to a playthrough in which:

-Resources are evenly divided

-A unit is not penalized for taking up a unit slot

-How the character fights against enemies

-How good and quickly the character's supports are

-How, assuming we're not just speedrunning with top tier characters and thieves, how they strengthen the team as a whole

-Negative efficency is over chapters is not assumed

-No casualties

-Difficulty of recruitment is not considered unless your name is Xavier (which I'll get to eventually)

There's problably more that I forgot but eh.

[GreatEclipse]

Not punishing units for consuming a slot sounds nice, but in practice it results in an availability contest among units with similar proficiency. The net system is no better in this respect, at least among lower end units (Geese > Treck for consuming a slot someone better could fill for 3 or 4 less chapters), but you should keep that in mind.

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[dondon151]

-Resources are evenly divided

Doesn't reflect how an actual player will make decisions. The best use of resources is to use them in the manner that's most effective.

-A unit is not penalized for taking up a unit slot

Doesn't reflect how an actual player will make decisions. A player, when choosing deployment, always compares units to possible better alternatives.

[GreatEclipse]

I agree that banning "favoritism" on an efficiency list makes no sense. If you want to maximize efficiency, you favor the best units.

[Dark Sage]

Look if we're going to penalize everyone for taking up a unit slot than that would be unfair because in order to compare the unit to others or measure their performance, they're going to need to take up a unit slot.

[grandjackal]

Look if we're going to penalize everyone for taking up a unit slot than that would be unfair because in order to compare the unit to others or measure their performance, they're going to need to take up a unit slot.

Problem being that units are not made equal on every map. Take chapter 8 for example. I have a good right to punish anyone not a mount on that map, because it's freaking humongous. Likewise in the desert, fliers tend to be the most helpful.

For most other maps, you would have t think if the unit is actually best for the situation, and if they aren't I won't field them. This is why units that start bad get a shaft, I've no reason to hurt my performance by using someone who sucks when I have people who don't suck ready to take the slot. You have to agree that is not efficiency at all.

Brings me to Lillina. Her quick leveling speed allows her to at least have chip damage as strong as Lou's (though at the time he is doubling pretty much only the slowest things moving around, though that's clearly his advantage). While chances are she will never double outside of generals, her chip damage is still going to be heavy and accurate. That and on promotion, she does at least do pretty excellently as a secondary healer, thanks to her astounding Magic stat allowing her to heal 31 HP with just a Live staff.

Basically you can be "not good" as a mage, but you can't exactly suck as one either. This is why Ray is in lower-mid as well, because I'm positive his problems aren't much better, and lacks Lillina's time on top of it. Hell, only reason Hue's in low is because the cost to buy him denies us a couple pairs of Boots or Robes.

That, and with all the armor knight business going on, I'm surprised Lillina hasn't been brought up, considering she's indispensible to those guys, thanks to her Light affinity and support speed.

[Dat Nick]

Using the armor knight trio AND Lilina is one hell of a wonderful way to shoot yourself in the foot, is why.

[grandjackal]

Using the armor knight trio AND Lilina is one hell of a wonderful way to shoot yourself in the foot, is why.

Well no shit, it doesn't stop her from being indispensible to them. She gives them everything they'd ever want in a support, and strong enough chip that they could ya know, kill something instead of taking all three of them to triangle one stupid moron. The durability, acc and offense boost she gives them also makes sure their enemy phase is substantially less garbage.

...Still garbage, but not as garbage-y.

[Dark Sage]

Problem being that units are not made equal on every map. Take chapter 8 for example. I have a good right to punish anyone not a mount on that map, because it's freaking humongous. Likewise in the desert, fliers tend to be the most helpful.

For most other maps, you would have t think if the unit is actually best for the situation, and if they aren't I won't field them. This is why units that start bad get a shaft, I've no reason to hurt my performance by using someone who sucks when I have people who don't suck ready to take the slot. You have to agree that is not efficiency at all.

That was what I had I in mind. If we're going to penalize them for taking up a unit slot, it shouldn't be too big of a penalty, because if we're going to compare, than they're going to have to.

[grandjackal]

That was what I had I in mind. If we're going to penalize them for taking up a unit slot, it shouldn't be too big of a penalty, because if we're going to compare, than they're going to have to.

And unless they actually become something good reletively quick, or have a huge payoff eventually (Fir for example), chances are it's not a worthwhile investment of time and exp. Most of the time they just start bad and end up par, like Geese.

[Dark Sage]

I agree. This is why Lilina is a failure of epic proportions. Because she doesn make a worthwhile return when she's recruited.

Here's a good argument for why Lilina sucks (start on page 2 or 3). http://forums.feplanet.net/index.php?showtopic=30572

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dark Sage

[grandjackal]

I agree. This is why Lilina is a failure of epic proportions. Because she doesn make a worthwhile return when she's recruited.

Here's a good argument for why Lilina sucks (start on page 2 or 3). http://forums.feplanet.net/index.php?showtopic=30572

Neither do Treck and Noah, look where they are.

This argument is rather outdated as well, as it doesn't seem to assume contributions in chipping to avoid counters, of which Lillina can still do, and do quite well thanks to her power. Her problem is not durability, as anyone with range shouldn't even really be bothered by it (outside of Sacae, where obviously she sucks), because a mage would like to avoid contact whenever possible (so some mages can take a shot, you still wouldn't throw them out in the open).

It even assumes Gonzoles gets Echidna (and Treck? wtf?), which is a painfully slow support in comparison to Lillina's 30+2 speed, along with giving him what he wants. Whatever acc he can get, slight offense boost, huge crit and Def boost.

We're aware she doesn't exactly turn on the god mode, but she's never outright useless either. Otherwise, we might as well toss Geese, OJ, and Ray down with her, because at least her magic chip contributes more than Geese and OJ's starting physical combat fail, and she's around for more time than Ray is to contribute chipping.

[Dark Sage]

Hmmm. Good point. The basic argument is good, even if everything else is outdated. But still, Lilina can contribute later, assuming she'll be able to gain experienced. She has nice chipping, but she'll have a hard time leveling up. Not nearly immpossible or insurmountable, but still, it's difficult. And for what? All you get is a mediocre chipper with lousy supports and lousy durability. She can't kill things effectively and she misses against fast foes like Nomads and Falco Knights constantly. She should drop maybe near the bottom of lower mid, if only for chipping and Aircalibur. She dosen't have Ray's excuse of Nosferatau or reliable supports either.

She dosen't even make that great a chipper, considering how the enemy's avoid dosen't suck in HM. Yes I know Anima is insanely accurate, but against the dangerous foes (like mercenaries, and nomads, well more nomads since Lilina attacks at a distance) she has a definite chance of missing and can't take a hit to recover from that. Plus the main problem is getting her to a good enough level where her chipping becomes really useful.

Lilina is not horrible, but she's mediocre and her performance and usese are unimpressive. But I guess you can give the same argument to the smooth pimp daddy known as Ray. We'll discuss him later.

Oujay has crap durability and bad joining time, but he has swords vs axes. Which dosen't mean too much, but it's something. Should help his durability.

Oh and Hugh should rise a bit. People seem to forget the Silver Card. But whatever.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dark Sage

[CATS]

I was under the impression that we want the lowest turn count possible, and that the best units are the ones that save the most turns. A unit needs to save 20-30 turns on their own merits to even stand a chance vs. Marcus under such a system (Good luck with that, Echidna), so I can only conclude it means something else.

Indeed. Like I said, it's clear that just lowest-turncount isn't acceptable, but it's not clear what would be acceptable. The simple fact that we're having a discussion about it demonstrates that there's no concrete definition at all.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm. Good point. The basic argument is good, even if everything else is outdated. But still, Lilina can contribute later, assuming she'll be able to gain experienced. She has nice chipping, but she'll have a hard time leveling up. Not nearly immpossible or insurmountable, but still, it's difficult. And for what? All you get is a mediocre chipper with lousy supports and lousy durability. She can't kill things effectively and she misses against fast foes like Nomads and Falco Knights constantly. She should drop maybe near the bottom of lower mid, if only for chipping and Aircalibur. She dosen't have Ray's excuse of Nosferatau or reliable supports either.

Difficult? At her joining time, I'd be surprised if people were ORKOing consistantly, she starts off with 11+1 might (C Roy is 1 turn), and 12 crit with said support and the Thunder Tome Roy gives her. In the least, she's able to do 10 damage off the bat without eating a counter. That's a pretty healthy finishing margin. On top of this, her level in conjunction with the enemy is enough that 2 kills nets her a level. I'd hardly think getting her levels is actually any sort of problem.

I'd consider her C with Roy and Gonzales far more reliable than Ray's supports as well. No reason to support a thief who's never always around (especially now that lances are getting heavy use by the enemy), Lou's supports are taken to a point where Ray probably won't get much in regardless (unless you decided to kill off Ellen). Roy's C is open to anyone, her's is the quickest. Gonzales has no one else that's faster or more helpful to him in general. Unless he actually gets these supports, his accuracy is bad, and I mean among the worst on the team. This hurts his Nosferatu use, not that I'd find it too helpful as it's a bit risky. If he misses, his meta-tanking suddenly got him killed by the next guy who takes a swing at him.

She dosen't even make that great a chipper, considering how the enemy's avoid dosen't suck in HM. Yes I know Anima is insanely accurate, but against the dangerous foes (like mercenaries, and nomads, well more nomads since Lilina attacks at a distance) she has a definite chance of missing and can't take a hit to recover from that. Plus the main problem is getting her to a good enough level where her chipping becomes really useful.

Level 5 with that C Roy support at chapter 9, the only thing that seperates her from Lou is that Lou can double steel axers. She's still leveling pretty rapidly as well. Might not double, but she can make up for it in raw damage. Then Gonzales comes in and the support gives a slight might boost along with huge crit, and I'd think it's pretty hard to survive a magic crit, especially form her.

So she's not as accurate as Lou, she's still not missing as much as you make it out to be. You also mention mercs, of which I don't think most are doing much better, and she doesn't even have to take a counter form them.

Oujay has crap durability and bad joining time, but he has swords vs axes. Which dosen't mean too much, but it's something. Should help his durability.

Nevermind he's doing less damage at melee which forces him to eat counters, and has to deal with this throught he lance heavy portions before chapter 16 where he can finally get a crest...

Oh and Hugh should rise a bit. People seem to forget the Silver Card. But whatever.

10k is 2 boots or 2 robes I can't buy.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Dark Sage]

Difficult? At her joining time, I'd be surprised if people were ORKOing consistantly, she starts off with 11+1 might (C Roy is 1 turn), and 12 crit with said support and the Thunder Tome Roy gives her. In the least, she's able to do 10 damage off the bat without eating a counter. That's a pretty healthy finishing margin. On top of this, her level in conjunction with the enemy is enough that 2 kills nets her a level. I'd hardly think getting her levels is actually any sort of problem.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch8.html

Let's see. Pleniful ranged weaponry, can't double, gets killed instantly, low-medium chipping output. She only does 8 damage at minimum, 9 damage with C Roy. Ok chipping, but not too stellar. Roy wants B Alan/B Lance, leaving little room for Lilina. Gonzales support is good though later on. Maybe it's not too much of a problem to gain levels, but her performance dosen't really improve a lot until chapter 11-12. 13 she has Aircalibur and C Roy/C Gonzales, but a lot of high movement enemies are runnig around. Combine with promoted enemies and ballisites and she's down for the count. Her durability is a constant issue. Not as much as it's made out to be, but it's a bad setback. I don't think she can promote until Chapter 16 at earliest though.

She can only 3-4RKO enemies at best. Yes I know her use is for chipping, but the question is not whether or not she can chip, it's whether or not her join situation is ideal for what she can do.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch.9.html

Let's assume Lilina is at 5/0, gainig 2 levels per chapter. We're also going to assume she'll use the Thunder tome and she has C Roy.

HP 17.8

Attack 14

Avoid 18.5

Defense 2.9

Hit 102.6

Crit 10.9

AS 5

Lilina's damage here is not bad at all. She has competent chipping, comparable to Lugh, she has nice Crit and her hit is servicable at worst. But it's here that her durability does matter. Why? Pirates. It's very hard to wall all of your units, let alone Lilina. If anybody even breathes on her she's dead. But otherwise, not that bad.

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

Let's say she's at 7/0 now (again Thunder and C Roy support)

HP 18.7

Attack 15.5

Hit 103

Crit 11.6

AS 6

Avoid 19.7

Defense 3.3

Ok, here her durability isn't so much of an issue. She dosen't have two much trouble hitting things, but she only 3RKO things. Not exactly a step up from before. This time, Mercenaries have a decent shot at dodging. But there's also a ballisite and you don't dare put Lilina with your other units, so she can't chip as much. Ballisites HURT. A lot. And she has no defense against it either. Her avoid is atrocious as well.

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch11a.html

Lilina will now be at 10/0 (I know, I'm being generous here), she now has Elfire in her repetoire.

HP 20.1

Attack 17.8 (20.8 with Elfire)

Hit 104.35 (99.35 with Elfire)

Crit 13.15 (8.15 with Elfire)

AS 7

Avoid 27.7

Defense 3.9

Ok I'm not going to lie. Lilina is one of the best chippers here. But just when you think she can kill things on her own now, SHE CAN'T. She can't even double Steel axe fighters, let alone anything else. Her durability is even worse because almost everyone has everyone has ranged weapons now. Even when the hit rate is 44, she still has a shot of dying. Still, I am being a bit unfair about it. It's easy to protect her and by the end, she'll get Gonzales C (let's assume this anyway). Still, while she can chip, she can't kill without babying, which is bad.

Alright last chapter for now:

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch12a.html

Lilina is now at 12/0 (she now has added Gonzales C added on).

HP 21

Attack 19.7 (22.7 with Elfire)

Hit 116.6 (111.6 with Elfire)

Crit 18.35 (13.35 with Elfire)

AS 7

Avoid 30.5

Defense 4.3

Not bad at all. Lilina's now a classic glass cannon. Well, more of a glass chipper. She's contributing in chipping very well and while she can't double, she can crit just fine. Durability isn't much of an issue despite the walls full of archers and shamans because there are ways around them, and now she can kill the Mamkute boss. Actually, this is Lilina at her best. But she still can't double. It's infuriating and nearly everything doubles her!

The more I compare this, the more I'm begining to agree with you. She's a nice chipper all the way through the Western Isles and if you drop her after Chapter 14, she can stay where she is. She can be a decent healer when promoted as well, assuming she can get that far. Let me know about any holes in my arguments. I'm still learning debating.

I'd consider her C with Roy and Gonzales far more reliable than Ray's supports as well. No reason to support a thief who's never always around (especially now that lances are getting heavy use by the enemy), Lou's supports are taken to a point where Ray probably won't get much in regardless (unless you decided to kill off Ellen). Roy's C is open to anyone, her's is the quickest. Gonzales has no one else that's faster or more helpful to him in general. Unless he actually gets these supports, his accuracy is bad, and I mean among the worst on the team. This hurts his Nosferatu use, not that I'd find it too helpful as it's a bit risky. If he misses, his meta-tanking suddenly got him killed by the next guy who takes a swing at him.

Lugh most likely has B Chad/C Ellen. I'm sure Ray can squeeze in pretty well with Lugh. You do have a point about Chad however. His skill is ok, though you are right, he does have issues involving weight. But at least he HAS a way of independent health restoring and tanking, unlike Lilina.

Level 5 with that C Roy support at chapter 9, the only thing that seperates her from Lou is that Lou can double steel axers. She's still leveling pretty rapidly as well. Might not double, but she can make up for it in raw damage. Then Gonzales comes in and the support gives a slight might boost along with huge crit, and I'd think it's pretty hard to survive a magic crit, especially form her.

So she's not as accurate as Lou, she's still not missing as much as you make it out to be. You also mention mercs, of which I don't think most are doing much better, and she doesn't even have to take a counter form them.

But the thing is, she's not quite making it up in "raw damage". All she is Lugh, only much frailer. Lugh can avoid being doubled. Lilina cannot. All she's doing in "raw damage" is one more point than him in Chapter 9. That's it! Of course this is assuming Lugh would be 10/0. And yes, she does eat a counter because a lot of enemies have 2 ranged weapons on the Western Isles.

Nevermind he's doing less damage at melee which forces him to eat counters, and has to deal with this throught he lance heavy portions before chapter 16 where he can finally get a crest...

I didn't say he would be good, just it helps him out kinda. Though I don't know why I threw in Oujay.

10k is 2 boots or 2 robes I can't buy.

Silver Card halves the cost of Hugh. Not directly, but you could buy 2 promotion items instead of one if you wanted too with the Silver Card.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Florete]

Silver Card halves the cost of Hugh. Not directly, but you could buy 2 promotion items instead of one if you wanted too with the Silver Card.

You have it backwards. The existence of the Silver Card effectively doubles the cost of Hugh because instead of spending 10k on him, I could get 20k worth of other items.