FE6 HM Tier List

[Momo]

While Roy's only purpose is to seize the throne, he's still just a combat unit otherwise and should be tiered as such.

The healers all join right around the same time, you get plenty of other potential healers to compare them to, and they all have their own definable weaknesses (Saul has low dodge, Ellen's slow, Clarine needs supports). If you're putting them in the unique tier to make room for simpler discussion, I think Cecelia and Yodel should also go there too.

edit: oh and Lot still sucks :(

Edited April 1, 2011 by Saloma

[-Cynthia-]

Don't forget Niime, who we're probably using mostly for staff rank.

I personally think staves have enough of a measurable impact that they don't need to be seperated, but eh. Fliers are also tricky, I would say all of the non-Miledy fliers in the game are better off rescuedropping than bothering with combat.

[Anouleth]

Don't forget Niime, who we're probably using mostly for staff rank.

I personally think staves have enough of a measurable impact that they don't need to be seperated, but eh. Fliers are also tricky, I would say all of the non-Miledy fliers in the game are better off rescuedropping than bothering with combat.

Tate's combat is salvageable, even if it's not amazing.

[RNG Princess]

Isn't Thany salvageable too? She's there from ch1 onwards

Yuno ferrying is better for her to do. Mainly ch.21 & 23 maybe chest rescue chain on thieves for 22.

[Colonel M]

Thany takes a lot of work for little reward. She has to cling on kills often to get experience and then she performs decently in the Western Isles with an early promotion. That's mainly because Iron Swords and her high Spe / Luck give her a decent buffer to bring Hit rates down considerably. After that she struggles a bit too much since her CEXP gain is rather low on top of her maining flying duty. For what it's worth, unpromoted Thany can carry promoted Gonzales which makes ferrying his ass a lot easier.

I guess I can shove Roy and the staff users out of the unique utility... still iffy on Staff users, but "fine".

edit: oh and Lot still sucks :(

Fir sucks more

I think I can summarize Fir vs. Lot a bit better seeing as I've used Lot past earlygame before, so let's take a crack at it.

First off, Lot of course has earlygame. He's not completely clutch, but he does have circumstances where he's useful. He helps on the right side in Chapter 2, alongside Dieck and Ward I guess. In Chapter 3 we have a shitload of Lance users which helps alleviate his Hit issues. Then of course we have Chapter 4 where he's your best Halberd user. He's also one of the only two units that can ORKO (well OHKO) Cavaliers and can survive an impact from any of the Lance ones; even if he is doubled. Marcus can only double the 7 AS Cavaliers unless he gains 3-4 Levels, which then means he can double some of the 8 AS ones (note: 7 AS is rare). The lowest Evade a Cavalier has is 17. To compare Lot's Hit rates with others:

With Halberd: 59% Displayed

With Iron Axe: 71% Displayed

4 Lance w/Iron Lance and C Alan: 70% Displayed

Granted that Lot looks pretty far behind, but let's also recall that Lance here is doing 8 damage per round which is a 4RKO. Not cool. Lot here does 10 damage to the weakest Cavalier, which is a 3HKO. If we're going to complain that "Lot sucks" in this chapter, we might as well pull "Lance and almost everyone else sucks" too.

Chapter 5 is probably where he faces his first significant loss. Even assuming a Level 6 Lot, 8 AS fails to get him doubled by the Fighters at the least as well as the Nomads / Mage. He can double the Steel Axe Fighters sometimes too. Now his Hit rates go down derp levels due to the vast forest. So I concede that Lot isn't good here at least. If the enemies are off the forest tiles he's a "little" better. Taking the dodgy Fighter (21 Avo is their max), Lot has 59% Displayed off of the Forest tile. If it's a Steel Axe Fighter, this increases to 69% Displayed. Chapter 6 is once again a shitload of enemies Lot can deal with. Soldiers and Armor Knights are all over the map; enemies Lot can deal with easily. Chapter 7 is Wyvern / Cavalier hell where Halberd / Hammer use can help save the day, though by this point I guess Marcus may have enough weapon rank to use them. Maybe. You have a lot of deployment slots so he probably can edge in easily.

I'll stop here since Chapter 8 is debatable at best when he needs to be ferried to whomp on enemies, though if we're not assuming maximum efficiency standpoint then I guess he's just as fine here. It's not until Chapter 8x where he's probably a bit more of a liability. I found him "mediocre" in Western Isles since he carried the Killer Axe to help buffer his AS issues, "decent" in Chapter 14 since he has his last glory days killing with Halberd, then from there on until he promoted "blegh". I guess he was okay in Chapter 16 since there were Armor Knights that he could dispose of, but thankfully 14 is a desert chapter where he doesn't want to participate, 14X is more for high movement units due to the disappearing tiles, and 15 can be over within a flash. On the route splits he was useful thanks to his high score Def and Dieck support which helped them both out. In Sacae they were almost immune to impact and Lot had Iron Bow to help compensate his Hit. In Ilia Lot was durable, Pegasus Knights were slow. His last day to shine was probably Chapter 20 where he can pull out Armads and help KO the Wyverns.

Okay, Fir. I grant you that she's not "horrible", but I never got the erm... hype around her either. Much like Lot she relies on criticals to KO enemies in the Western Isles. The difference is that she gets two shots at it most of the time if it's not a Steel Axe Fighter / Pirate. Obviously that is better. Regardless, her durability is also a hell of a lot worse. Where we have Lot who's being 3HKOed, Fir is always 2HKOed. She takes 17 damage just from one Hand Axe Fighter. 21 Atk is a 3HKO on Lot. With regards to Avoid, Fir meets 41 Avoid with WTA. 11 Lot has 32 with B Dieck; 34 with a Spd proc. Even Lot faces 37% Displayed while Fir faces, admittedly, 28% Displayed. True makes 27.75% and 15.96%. CoD for Fir in two hits is 2.5% while Lot has 2.1%. Lot slightly edges there, but Fir does have better offense.

But now look at Chapter 13 on. Chapter 13 is Cavalier hell where she's 2HKOed at high Hit rates and doesn't make huge dents. Being generous, a Level 12 Fir with Def proc'd is still 2HKOed. Steel Sword gives her 20 Atk at most, which does 10 damage per hit to the weakest Cavalier. BUT WAIT. 12 Fir's AS drops to 11 which fails to double every Cavalier. Finally Fir can get a Killing Edge for Chapter 14 on, but it takes 17 AS on up to double the Mercenaries. Fir fails at reaching that. So now we hit the Wyverns. She's lucky to be able to wield the Wyrmslayer, which does ORKO the Wyvern Riders at least. Wyvern Lords she fails on. ...That's so much better than Lot not being fielded...

...14X is still a huge map with the bridges going against her and Ohtz has Bolting with his motley crew which is probably annoying as hell for Fir. Then of course 15 is over near-instantly where she faces Mercenaries at least... and doesn't double them, etc. Later on she's "okay". She's arguably worse in Ilia than she is in Sacae since Sacae calls for a bit more extremes in AS and Hit, whereas her mediocre durability puts her on priority against Ballistae and can sort of bite her against the FalcoKnights (which can 2HKO her).

...So the question is above all else is who's better? It's all about how you view an efficiency standpoint. Do you take the guy that takes no training to be useful from the start and maybe gets dropped later on or do you take a character that joins midway and offers some decency in the Western Isles and ends up "okay" after Chapter 16X? It all hinges from there... and Fir probably can win. It just all depends on how you view the card.

[RNG Princess]

Thats was really good and convincing ^^' I would of never thought he'd be that useful (I always feed kills to Thany and the cavs )

[Momo]

Fir sucks more

I think I can summarize Fir vs. Lot a bit better seeing as I've used Lot past earlygame before, so let's take a crack at it.

I wasn't comparing him to Fir, I was just saying is all. I will say though, you rely way too much on Lot's ability to actually hit things. He starts with awful hit and it only gets worse.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Saloma

[dondon151]

Not significantly worse than Fir having to proc a crit in any round of combat to KO anything.

[Momo]

Hitting twice is better than missing once.

But I didn't mean to continue the whole Lot vs Fir thing, I have no idea how I feel about her.

[-Cynthia-]

I've been playing FE6 again, and it's given me some more insight.

Biggest issue I see right now is Dayan. Is he really that bad? His bases aren't exactly amazing, but 20 Spd is solid and he has A rank bows with chapters full of wyverns coming up. His availability isn't so good, but Niime and Yodel aren't any better there. Not aiming for High Tier here or anything, but I don't see what makes him more useless than say, Douglas with his low Mov and pretty bad offense and all.

[Swordsalmon]

Douglas has use in Sacae by rescuing Roy and being invincible for a while. That's more help than Dayan's role as filler.

[Florete]

Why is Douglas Rescuing Roy? Aren't we supposed to get Roy to the throne? Getting people places is not exactly Douglas' strong suit.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah I never got the Douglas rescuing Roy thing, if we're trying to get Roy to the throne quickly you think we wouldn't choose the guy with the lowest Mov on the team.

[Mekkah]

That's a strategy from the Inui-times, where we'd go at slow pace because we thought the game was hard...

Still, Douglas had some use in dondon's 0% run in forming distractions and blockades. The question is whether that's better or worse than Dayan's 2 chapters of Wyvern sniping.

[Swordsalmon]

Yeah I never got the Douglas rescuing Roy thing, if we're trying to get Roy to the throne quickly you think we wouldn't choose the guy with the lowest Mov on the team.

It helps keep Roy alive in Sacae, at the very least. And even when not rescuing, Douglas has good enough durability to deal chip damage for a while. He's helping more than Dayan's help at the end of the game.

[dondon151]

Douglas does a terrible job at hitting things.

I don't think I went about using Douglas in my 0% run very effectively. I had originally thought that the run itself would be difficult, but as I got better at doing the 0% runs, I came to reflect on my use of Douglas in this one as being a poor choice.

Maybe someday, I'll consider redoing it with a target turncount significantly lower than the 293 that I first achieved.

[-Cynthia-]

It helps keep Roy alive in Sacae, at the very least. And even when not rescuing, Douglas has good enough durability to deal chip damage for a while. He's helping more than Dayan's help at the end of the game.

The only time Roy should be in danger of being attacked is by long ranged tomes and it's not like Douglas is helping survive those (well I guess one time by dying)

I doubt efficient play ever consists of "wait for the armor to walk to the throne", so I'm going to continue to call BS on this Douglas carrying Roy business. Douglas's durability has no intrinsic value, being durable does not help you clear chapters in and of itself and he's an innacurate low Mov chipper on a team that probably doesn't need much chip damage anymore.

[Momo]

If we're doing chapters quickly, how is Roy staying out of the way? Douglass has the same move as him, and having him rescue Roy means you don't have someone else with halved hit.

on another note, does Bors do anything that makes him better than say, Sue? I never found him to be very useful.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Saloma

[-Cynthia-]

I usually have Cecilia or Clarine carry Roy most of the time (unless it's a map where I want a flier carrying him). It's not like we want someone like Cecilia facing a lot of enemy phase action anyway, she can still use staves and she has 3 Mov over Douglas.

[Anouleth]

I usually have Cecilia or Clarine carry Roy most of the time (unless it's a map where I want a flier carrying him). It's not like we want someone like Cecilia facing a lot of enemy phase action anyway, she can still use staves and she has 3 Mov over Douglas.

Same, although I found I was using Clarine for combat quite a bit after promotion, she was still useful since she had alternatives to fighting.

It's not like Cecilia's ever going to double anything, either!

[Duff Ostrich]

Marcus in high tier? Things certainly do change. I always figured he stopped being an asset once you hit the desert. Is he getting any supports?

on another note, does Bors do anything that makes him better than say, Sue? I never found him to be very useful.

Bors is completely horrible, but his start (if nothing else) is better than Sue's. She has a grand total of three flying units to attack in the early game, and with everyone else she has to work with 11 attack and 8 AS (iron bow). And she basically doesn't get any action until chapter 7. She also goes down to 23 attack with a hp/def growth of 55/15. Bors' claims of durability are pretty laughable early on but he does eventually get there (for all the good a zero offense wall is worth). Sue eventually gets... fast. Life is very hard for Sue.

[-Cynthia-]

Marcus is High tier because of earlygame, he's just that useful for some of those chapters.

Sue has horse utility and an accurate weapon with eventual doubling. Bors might have decent physical durability (except for gtting doubled a lot), but he has low Mov and often doesn't hit when he attacks things. Sue's durability is never good, but she doesn't take counters, so it's not that much of a hindrance. I'd rather have a fast, easily killable nomad than a low moving brick wall, the latter doesn't actually help me clear chapers.

[Duff Ostrich]

Marcus is also very bad later on. Once you reach Narshen (ch. 16) he'll have about 12 str and 14 spd with raw defenses that compare unfavorably to Echidna. I can buy weapon versatility and high move to a point, but eventually Marcus has very little left he can do. That's why I was asking if he was getting any supports, which looking at his list that seems unlikely. I haven't debated tiers in a while so I may be incorrect in assuming Roy/Alan/Lance, but that still seems like a safe bet, and Wolt and Lilina are bad. Marcus has a valuable ice affinity and no one to share it with. Marcus/Alan/Lance is kinda tempting though.

It's not even that I contest him being in high tier given a lot of the jokers he's competing against, but I do wonder about Shin, Gonzales, and the thieves. The former two are never as awful as Marcus eventually gets, and have phenomenal late-mid and lategames.

About Sue and Bors... that might be worth a statistical analysis when I have more time. And to be honest you might be correct about Sue. Bors being stuck with lances for 2/3 of the game really is the worst thing ever. Do keep in mind though that Sue not taking counters is not a good thing. Her offense is almost as consistently bad as her defense and she does nothing on the enemy phase. Unless I'm greatly overestimating Bors' lategame durability (and I might be), he will be able to operate plenty on the enemy phase.

[dondon151]

Tiering has changed a lot since I last saw you post, Duff. High movement and low turn play are of utmost value.

That's pretty much the reason why Marcus is in his current position. He saves the player's ass by a huge amount early in the game, and then gets dropped when he's no longer usable in combat. Other units that are good throughout the entire game tend to contribute less overall than Marcus does over the first half of the game due to the fact that their utility can be replaced by other units. Marcus can also be deployed later as a mounted rescuer if there are unit slots to spare.

The same logic is behind why Sue might be better than Bors. Bors can't move quickly enough to participate in combat, and his high con makes it difficult for him to be moved around. Conversely, Sue has the movement and the weapon type to participate in combat at a safe distance, and her low con lets her move around other foot units, like Dieck.

Finally, being locked to bows isn't considered to be as crippling of a disadvantage as it used to be. Bow users being detrimental on enemy phase due to not countering is no longer a valid argument, because in that sort of situation, the player obviously did not choose the best option. Bow users are still generally worse because they have no enemy phase and, by extension, do less relative to other units.

[Anouleth]

Being a bow user is not the flaw it is in other FEs. Good, accurate 2-range is nearly impossible to find, and there are numerous advantages to using bows:

-Fliers, in huge numbers in Ilia and Bern chapters, who are generally difficult to deal with using other methods. Even weakening the ones in Chapter 7 is an asset.

-Shooting through walls in Chapter 12.

-Countering the numerous Nomads in Sacae on enemy phase. Nomads have high avoid and even the most accurate units like Miledy do not have reliable hit rates.

-Gumming down powerful enemies you don't want to take counters from. Nobody wants to take, for example, a Silver Lance to the face in Chapter 13 from a Paladin.

WRT Marcus:

It's true that Marcus is only good for the first half of the game, but that's far more than many other people. Could you say that Lot has 15 good chapters? Or Echidna?