FE6 HM Tier List

[A2ZOMG]

Someone tell me if there was a reason Saul was put above Ellen.

The way I see it, Ellen's supports > Saul's supports. Ellen's evade for most of the game is also better than Saul's due to her wtfmassive luck growth not to mention she gets to support Lugh and Miledy. Neither Ellen or Saul are really cut out to take physical hits at all, though Ellen has better res and thus isn't as likely to be hit by status staves. Offensively the difference isn't huge given that neither of them is really able to oneround consistently with Lightning. Saul just has some extra AS, but generally loses evade and hit due to his crap luck stat and non-existent supports. His luck is so low he actually has to worry about getting critted by enemies when he takes hits as well, while Ellen's critavo is so high she actually can bring enemy swordmaster critrates to single digits.

[-Cynthia-]

Saul's concrete defensive parameters are better than Ellen's, 20/2 as opposed to probably 17/0, which means we need 5 more Atk to OHKO Saul than we do to OHKO Ellen. I would be more concerned about Ellen's chance of getting OHKOd than crit chances against Saul, since it's more likely to happen against most enemies.

Saul should also have a small magic lead and a small AS lead on Ellen once he joins, protecting him against doubles, increasing his healing output, and making him better at offense if we decide to promote them. I'd take Saul's advantages over Ellen.

Ellen supporting Miledy is nearly useless, Miledy's flying off and doing her own thing, she doesn't have time to hang around a foot unit we've probably dropped anyway. I guess Ellen can support Lugh but that's 30+1 so it's a pretty late B at best.

[dondon151]

Easy answer:

Saul gets Warp sooner than Ellen. In my playthrough, after chapter 13, with a promotion at level 10, Saul had A +1 staff WEXP. At the beginning of chapter 6, when Saul joins, I had Ellen at D +19 WEXP while Saul starts at C +0 at base.

Saul also starts closer to promotion than Ellen. With 19 Heal uses, Ellen gains 209 EXP, putting her at level 4.09, while Saul starts at level 5.

Granted, I did kind of plow my way through chapter 5, and I also played very quickly - the difference in turncount is probably enough to put Ellen at the same level as Saul by the end of chapter 5. But even with an extra 11 heals, Ellen is still 20 staff WEXP behind Saul in reaching A staves.

Edited June 24, 2011 by dondon151

[Janissary]

Sue is pretty chumpy if you ask me. Her strength is just atrocius. Let's say by some miracle she's at 20/5 at Chapter 20. She still only has 14 strength on average. Dayan joins with 14 strength and a better sword weapon rank. There's no reason to bother to train her when we get basically the same character for free.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Janissary

[dondon151]

There's no reason to bother to train her when we get basically the same character for free.

There's everything in the interim. Stuff like moving infantry units around and chipping at enemies with relatively high accuracy ranged weapons.

[Janissary]

There's everything in the interim. Stuff like moving infantry units around and chipping at enemies with relatively high accuracy ranged weapons.

She's inferior for ferrying to pegasi and her chip damage is pretty worthless with her lolstrength. I haven't played with her really, but let's say she gets to maybe 14/0 for Chapter 15 because I'm feeling generous. Her strength is 9, her attribute add to hit is 38. Iron Bow MT is 6, hit 80. Steel is MT 9 hit 65. AS of 14 with Steel, 17 with Iron.

Cumulative totals:

Iron: 14 ATK, 118 HIT, 17 AS

Steel 17 ATK, 103 HT, 14 AS

Against Mercs (38ish HP) in Chap 15:

Iron: 4 Damage, 75ish hit, no double.

Steel: 7 damage, 60ish hit, no double.

Similar performance against Cavs (but with stronger hit rates and doubling so her damage might actually be relevant at a whopping 10-14 HP). Yeah, that's not exactly stellar. At all. Why do I even want to train her? If you want to move her up for utility purposes, that makes sense, but it sure ain't because she can do anything offensively.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Janissary

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm, I feel like most of the enemies that actually are able to oneshot Ellen generally are able to oneshot Saul as well. For instance, most of the axe users at the Western Isles that have attack stats in the high 20s do oneshot Ellen, but they also go plenty in excess of oneshotting Saul as well. Most of the bow users during those levels that hover around 17 atk with iron don't oneshot Ellen on the other hand.

And at any rate, once you get to chapter 16, getting oneshotted shouldn't be a concern for your main team if you just stock up on some Angelic Robes, which you'll have plenty of money for by selling excess promotion items. Saul on the other hand always is going to have a low luck problem, and his evade isn't as good as Ellen's. Should we use him for attacking, his hitrates aren't as good either, and he isn't onerounding anything, while Ellen can have a slight attack lead when her supports are factored.

Edited June 24, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

She's inferior for ferrying to pegasi

Yes, and who isn't? Lance is worse at bosskilling than Rutger; he must be worthless! Sue is actually pretty good when it comes to carrying units around because she can also damage enemies from 2 range with decent accuracy. Cavaliers have to rely on tossing Javelins to avoid damage from counters, and ferrying units don't generally have the freedom to heal themselves with Vulneraries.

and her chip damage is pretty worthless with her lolstrength. I haven't played with her really, but let's say she gets to maybe 14/0 for Chapter 15 because I'm feeling generous. Her strength is 9, her attribute add to hit is 38. Iron Bow MT is 6, hit 80. Steel is MT 9 hit 65. AS of 14 with Steel, 17 with Iron.

...

Similar performance against Cavs (but with stronger hit rates and doubling so her damage might actually be relevant at a whopping 10-14 HP). Yeah, that's not exactly stellar. At all. Why do I even want to train her? If you want to move her up for utility purposes, that makes sense, but it sure ain't because she can do anything offensively.

Conveniently, you use one of the toughest enemy types as evidence against Sue's ability.

Put her at level 9 for chapter 11. Around 7 str, 13 spd. 13 atk with Iron Bow. Against fighters, it's 7 x2 HP damage when she doubles (all Steel Axe, some with Hand Axe).

Zealot at base, with Steel Sword, has 19 atk with WTA and 13 AS. Against fighters, 13 x2 HP damage when he doubles. Which means they combine for KOs pretty well on those maps. Pretty convenient, huh? ORKOing in these maps is pretty difficult for most player units; you either need to be Gonzales (who fails to hit twice half the time and doesn't double very much) or be using a Silver Sword.

Similar stuff in chapter 13. Put her at level 11 for 8 str and 14-15 spd. 17 atk, 12-13 AS with Killer Bow. Against 10 def cavaliers, 7 x2 HP damage. Zealot at --/5, with Killer Axe, has 23 atk with WTA and 13-14 AS. 13 x2 HP damage when he doubles. Enemy cavaliers in this map don't get tougher than 40 HP and 10 def. Also pretty convenient.

Yeah, Sue is weak, but she's strong enough to enable one of the player's most versatile units.

Let's also not discount early promotion: 2 Orion Bolts are available as soon as chapter 12, whereas cavaliers have only 1 Knight Crest before chapter 16.

Hmmm, I feel like most of the enemies that actually are able to oneshot Ellen generally are able to oneshot Saul as well. For instance, most of the axe users at the Western Isles that have attack stats in the high 20s do oneshot Ellen, but they also go plenty in excess of oneshotting Saul as well. Most of the bow users during those levels that hover around 17 atk with iron don't oneshot Ellen on the other hand.

Steel Sword mercenaries in chapter 10. Those have 19-20 atk and OHKO Ellen up to at least level 8 on average, and may double her anyway. Steel Bow archers in chapter 11 have 21 atk and OHKO until Ellen is level 12 on average. Hand Axe fighters have 23-24 atk and OHKO Ellen until level 16 on average, but stop OHKOing Saul starting at level 8 on average.

And at any rate, once you get to chapter 16, getting oneshotted shouldn't be a concern for your main team if you just stock up on some Angelic Robes,

Not an acceptable tradeoff. Every Angelic Robe that the player buys and uses in chapter 16 is a Boots that the player can't buy in chapter 21. I especially don't think that using an Angelic Robe on a grounded staff user, who shouldn't be getting attacked at all in the first place, will pay off more than a pair of Boots later on.

while Ellen can have a slight attack lead when her supports are factored.

What supports?

Edited June 24, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

So since we're looking at leveling speed, I have decided to take a look at Treck. Lvl 4 is once again a pretty low starting level, but unlike Sue, Treck is a cavalier, coming with all the versatility it has to offer. Looking at his lvling speed, he's got about 12 on chip and 44 on kill for normal enemies on the average level of 8 (since they can go up to 11 in his opening chapter), and 16 on chip with 40 on kill for soldiers. This is a somewhat similar speed of which Sue's leveling. However, if we consider that Treck is more likely to see mroe action due to enemy phase, we could agree that Treck will be gaining a bit more levels than her.

As me and dondon were talking about the theoretical leveling of Sue using his playthrough a guideline, we figured lvl 7 for Sue by the time Shin is in our party in chapter 10. Soooo, for Treck let's have him at about...Lvl 11. 7 levels to her 6.

30.95 HP, 10.8 Str, 8.1 Skl, 9.45 Spd, 8.5 Lck, 10.1 Def, 0.35 Res

Base Geese: 33 HP, 10 Str, 9 Skl, 9 Spd, 9 Lck, 8 Def, 0 Res

Striking similarity. Geese has 2 HP but loses 2 Def, has lolwhatev 1 Luck, and otherwise are tied. However, there are notable differences.

-Treck has a horse. Geese does not.

-Treck has WT control. Geese does not.

-We're on the western isles where most of the enemies have axes. So, for the start, Treck has WTa basically most of the time while Geese is neutral. It can also be a problem with Geese's acc, since at best he can have up to 78 displayed, at worst down to 66 at worst on axe users alone with his most accurate weapon of iron.

Compare them 5 levels from now.

Treck: 35.3 HP, 12.8 Str, 9.6 Skl,11.2 Spd, 11 Lck, 11.6 Def, 0.6 Res

Geese: 37.25 HP, 12.5 Str, 10.5 Skl, 11 Spd, 11 Lck, 9 Def, 0.5 Res

Chapter 15, these two are doubling only the slowest enemies, and otherwise they are essentially statistically the same, aside from still a few key differences. In fact, there's only 3 real differences.

-Treck still has a horse. Geese still does not.

-Treck still has WT control. Geese still does not.

However, this final one is the biggest changer.

-Treck can double with a killer lance due to 9 weight. Geese cannot double with a killer axe, due to it's 11 weight.

So even though Geese had a 1 mt advantage with WTA, it's negated by the fact that Treck can pull out 3 extra might with crit and still do what he does. Neither of these dudes are going to early promote though, so this cannot be an argument. There's only 1 Knight Crest so far (and Treck is probably the least desirable to promote early), and Geese has some stiff competition for his in the form of Deick, Rutger, even Gonzales. This is also a comparison implying that a mediocre cavalier is leveling up at the same speed as a mediocre axe user with 2 less move and more notable acc issues.

One could say it gets better after promotion

20/1 Treck: 41.6 HP, 16.4 Str, 12.8 Skl, 14.6Spd, 13 Lck, 14.8 Def, 3.8 Res

20/1 Geese: 46.5 HP, 18 Str, 16 Skl, 14 Spd, 13 Lck, 13 Def, 1 Res

Well...Kinda. Geese is certainly more durable now, has 2 more Str with a stronger weapon, +30 Crt, and the con to not be weighed down by the weapons he wants to use, along with terrain walk for the likes of wyverns in chapter 21, or the pegasi in Ilia. However, it's not all lost on Treck who can make up the durability due to his full triangle control, and still has 2 more movement, along with more varied weapons at his disposal. So if Geese wins in use in lategame, it's not exactly by a landslide.

My argument for Treck above Oujay as well is that Oujay has 1 lss Str, a lot less durability, no triangle control or ranged option until promotion, and his additional speed is negated by the fact that anything not iron weighs him down by a considerable amount. Also, no horse. Won't argue Treck above Ward, due to the fact Ward has actual earlygame use, while Treck is not an entirely desired unit.

[Janissary]

Sue is actually pretty good when it comes to carrying units around because she can also damage enemies from 2 range with decent accuracy. Cavaliers have to rely on tossing Javelins to avoid damage from counters

Right, let's ignore the whole no EP factor of bows.

Conveniently, you use one of the toughest enemy types as evidence against Sue's ability.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we were coddling our units like small children. This is war, not the little league.

Yeah, Sue is weak, but she's strong enough to enable one of the player's most versatile units.

I don't really see why having 2 range makes her "versatile". Wolt has similar strength to Sue. Does that suddenly make his chip damage relevant? What Dorothy? Of course not. Why? Because they still suck.

Like I have said before, Sue could probably move up on utility alone, but let's not sugarcoat her chip as something to write home about.

Let's also not discount early promotion: 2 Orion Bolts are available as soon as chapter 12, whereas cavaliers have only 1 Knight Crest before chapter 16.

This is actually a very relevant point. An early promo to Swords and 8 MOV could make her extremely useful midgame, considering there is virtually no competition for her promo item.

[Radiant Dragon]

Right, let's ignore the whole no EP factor of bows.

If she's rescuing Roy, we don't want her attacked on the enemy phase, so her choice of weapon is irrelevant.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we were coddling our units like small children. This is war, not the little league.

By only showing how she fares against one enemy type, you don't give an accurate impression of what she is capable of.

[Janissary]

If she's rescuing Roy, we don't want her attacked on the enemy phase, so her choice of weapon is irrelevant.

Unless we are boxing her in, she probably shouldn't be around enemies at all if she has a rescue.

By only showing how she fares against one enemy type, you don't give an accurate impression of what she is capable of.

Why shouldn't we compare units primarily to the hardest to kill units? If they can handle those units well, they have the rest of the units just fine.

[Rodykitty]

Why shouldn't we compare units primarily to the hardest to kill units? If they can handle those units well, they have the rest of the units just fine.

Because if that unit *doesn't* handle those units well, it doesn't tell us how well they handle any other unit.

[Anouleth]

I would also like to voice my support for Treck moving up.

[dondon151]

Right, let's ignore the whole no EP factor of bows.

As RD and Rody already pointed out, there shouldn't be enemies that can attack her on enemy phase. If the player leads with Marcus and Zealot (as he should), Sue works well for KOing enemies that they've weakened. On very large maps like chapter 8, it's not unlikely for them to build up a significant movement lead on the 7 move mounted units, and since there is no canto after attacking in this game, it's up to the trailing units to KO enemies while Marcus and Zealot keep moving forward.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we were coddling our units like small children. This is war, not the little league.

You know, mercenaries are really tough enemy types. The only units that do well against them either double (i.e., Rutger) or have a really powerful weapon (i.e., Marcus and Zealot). I had Rutger at almost 10/3 going into chapter 10, and his 18-19 atk on average with Iron Sword against mercenaries doesn't even come close to 2HKOing. He needs to either use a Silver Sword or proc crits in order to ORKO them. Zealot and Marcus 2HKO with Silver Lance, but those mercenaries are surrounded by fighters who hit like trucks, and Silver Lance uses are limited for a long time, so it's not something you can just throw around.

Right now, we're talking about a unit in lower mid or low tier. It's not really appropriate to compare kittens to lions, although if you somehow managed to convince us that Sue actually did well against mercenaries, she's probably at least 2 tiers too low.

I don't really see why having 2 range makes her "versatile". Wolt has similar strength to Sue. Does that suddenly make his chip damage relevant? What Dorothy? Of course not. Why? Because they still suck.

You misunderstand my epithet. Sue "enables one of the most versatile units." Meaning that Sue lets Zealot do his thing.

Like I have said before, Sue could probably move up on utility alone, but let's not sugarcoat her chip as something to write home about.

Against a 6 def fighter, 9/-- Sue doubling with Iron Bow at 7 x2 HP damage does about the same amount of damage as a 13/-- Noah not doubling with Steel Sword.

However, if we consider that Treck is more likely to see mroe action due to enemy phase, we could agree that Treck will be gaining a bit more levels than her.

Stop right there. The amount of enemy phase that Treck sees is directly dependent on how quickly the player goes through the game. If the player mainly uses Marcus and Zealot as sources of enemy phase offense, then Treck is kind of out of luck and will be looking for the same kills that Sue is looking for.

As me and dondon were talking about the theoretical leveling of Sue using his playthrough a guideline, we figured lvl 7 for Sue by the time Shin is in our party in chapter 10. Soooo, for Treck let's have him at about...Lvl 11. 7 levels to her 6.

I'm not sure this is entirely reasonable. I got Noah from 7/-- to 10/-- by the end of chapter 8x. To claim that Treck is going to basically negate Noah's 3 level lead within a span of effectively 3 chapters is a stretch.

Also, you can vaunt about Treck's weapon triangle control as much as you want, but he still only starts with E swords. He's going to be 4HKOing fighters at best and probably never doubling them, not even the ones weighed down to 6-7 AS with Steel Axe.

EDIT: Apologies for the double post.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sirius
Don't make it a habit.

[grandjackal]

Stop right there. The amount of enemy phase that Treck sees is directly dependent on how quickly the player goes through the game. If the player mainly uses Marcus and Zealot as sources of enemy phase offense, then Treck is kind of out of luck and will be looking for the same kills that Sue is looking for.

Well if we're arguing the rate of which Sue levels, then it still won't be that far off. Treck's not exactly leveling slowly here.

I'm not sure this is entirely reasonable. I got Noah from 7/-- to 10/-- by the end of chapter 8x. To claim that Treck is going to basically negate Noah's 3 level lead within a span of effectively 3 chapters is a stretch.

Well, A. Were you using Noah purposefully? and B. That 3 lvl deficit is what's allowing Treck to level faster. f we're going to argue that 11 is too much for Treck, then fine. Lookhim down a lvl or 2, the difference is not that significant when you compare the differences between Treck and Geese.

Also, you can vaunt about Treck's weapon triangle control as much as you want, but he still only starts with E swords. He's going to be 4HKOing fighters at best and probably never doubling them, not even the ones weighed down to 6-7 AS with Steel Axe.

This mt with an iron sword is pretty much matching Geese's might, and gives him more durability with removing 1 mt from the enemy along with giving him a decent evasion chance. If Geese wants to do better offensively, he has to basically switch to steel, which not only reduces his speed to 4, it also kills his acc by a significant margin. Even if it's just a minor benefit, it's still reflectng positively on Treck since Geese has no real way to outdo that factor. Not to mention due to lances, Treck can actually fight mercs.

Lastly, let's say we replace Sue with Treck for chapter 8. He's basically got enough speed and the mobility to be of use in that chapter. After that, we dump him. It's a moment of usability he has where he can soften things up for people we're actually gonna bother using. There's no real moment I can say that about Geese.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Grandjackal

[dondon151]

Well if we're arguing the rate of which Sue levels, then it still won't be that far off. Treck's not exactly leveling slowly here.

It could actually be a substantial difference. Treck is not a good unit like Allen or Lance (or even Noah) and doesn't have the flexibility for as much enemy phase action. It also makes getting kills more difficult and risky. For example, in chapter 7, it's somewhat plausible to give Sue all of the wyvern rider kills and then some by making use of her ranged attacking, but I wouldn't even risk having Treck attack anything at all in that map because he takes damage if he misses and his enemy phase is really bad.

Well, A. Were you using Noah purposefully?

Yes, I wanted to get him promoted before chapter 9.

B. That 3 lvl deficit is what's allowing Treck to level faster. f we're going to argue that 11 is too much for Treck, then fine. Lookhim down a lvl or 2, the difference is not that significant when you compare the differences between Treck and Geese.

A 3 level deficit is not sufficient to overcome better combat. If Noah fights more than Treck, then Noah can gain EXP faster than Treck even if the EXP formula suggests otherwise.

I do agree that the primary difference between Treck and Geese lies in the horse, because both of them have pretty lackluster combat.

[grandjackal]

It could actually be a substantial difference. Treck is not a good unit like Allen or Lance (or even Noah) and doesn't have the flexibility for as much enemy phase action. It also makes getting kills more difficult and risky. For example, in chapter 7, it's somewhat plausible to give Sue all of the wyvern rider kills and then some by making use of her ranged attacking, but I wouldn't even risk having Treck attack anything at all in that map because he takes damage if he misses and his enemy phase is really bad.

True, but how is this any better or different for Geese?

A 3 level deficit is not sufficient to overcome better combat. If Noah fights more than Treck, then Noah can gain EXP faster than Treck even if the EXP formula suggests otherwise.

True, but one must remember one of these chapters is chapter 8, which is lined with loldiers of whom pose a threat to no one in reality and are exp packets. Noah surely has better combat against them, no doubt in that. But the only chapter with real bearings on his performances are basically 7 and 9. One could say he makes up for a bit less combat by gaining more out of chapter 8.

As for Treck being lower level than my prediction, the only real difference is that Geese has like 3 more mt (only 2 on axers, one on swordies though he shouldn't be fighting them anyways) and a bit more HP. The speed lead would be irrelevent since he doesn't double things upon joining anyways. He's still got some acc issues compared to Treck having WT control, Treck can still fight mercs, and still has a horse.

I do agree that the primary difference between Treck and Geese lies in the horse, because both of them have pretty lackluster combat.

Pretty much the one point that will always stand out.

[Florete]

Uh, I don't follow this very closely anymore, but what's the difference between Sacae and Ilia such that Sophia is suddenly better than Bors in Sacae?

[grandjackal]

Funny, I think something that was an attempt to troll me instead trolled someone else. How humorous.

P.S. Rody, you know the armors with skill can do things like OHKO things with perfect acc. No amount of skill will make lolphia good.

Get sum.

[Reikken]

Bors > Sophia

he makes a good single-use wall or +5 damage in early chapters

Sophia does nada

[Paperblade]

Doesn't Sophia get us a Guiding Ring

[Reikken]

Technically, yes, but it depends on what all you're considering. Judging by the fact that she's bottom tier, below Dorothy, etc., I'm guessing we don't care about that since she never has to enter combat or even be deployed at all outside of the chapter she's forced(?) into anyway.

[Anouleth]

Doesn't Sophia get us a Guiding Ring

I'm happy for the Guiding Ring to be the tiebreaker that pushes Sophia above Wendy and any other units who can be described as completely useless, but that's it.

[RNG Princess]

What makes Merlinus be above Dorothy and Karel?

I think he's the only character who can reasonably be put below Sophia, I don't agree with Sophia > Bors.

and I like dondon's Sue argument, I would of never known she'd be a good team with Zealot.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Queen_Elincia