Slize vs. CATS

[Rewjeo]

So, it's the Pent wannabe vs. the most gullible character ever.

So, Saleh joins in Chapter 12, and he's pretty awesome. Compare his stats to anyone else at this point, and you can see that:

Base Saleh w/ Elfire:

30 HP

26 MT

126 HIT

12 AS

35 AVO

8 DEF

13 RES

9 CRIT

11 CEV

And he can also take a thunder tome for 2 AS and 5 CRIT in exchange for 2 MT and 5 HIT.

Compare to, say, base Gerik w/ an Iron Blade (the Steel Blade probably broke last chapter):

32 HP

23 MT

100 HIT

13 AS

34 AVO

10 DEF

4 RES

6 CRIT

8 CEV

Now, Gerik won't be base level, but it doesn't change much.

So offensively, it's 1 AS (or -1 if Saleh goes thunder) against 3 (8) crit, 3 (1) MT + DEF-RES gap, 26 (21) HIT, and the ability to attack at 2 range and get those guys coming down the mountains.

Defensively, it's 2 HP and 2 DEF against 1-5 AVO, 3 CEV, 9 RES (10 if he uses a light tome), and 1-2 range.

So he's winning offense quite clearly, and defense as well as he takes no player phase counters and isn't a sitting duck for enemies with 1-2 range. This is all against Gerik, who's a pretty great unit. And he's got C staves. Saleh's easily one of your best units right now. And as awesome as Cormag and his flying would be, he's not here.

So, Cormag decides to show up next chapter. Let's see how he compares to Saleh even if he hasn't leveled up yet:

Base Cormag w/ Killer Lance:

30 HP

24 MT

90 HIT

10 AS

24 AVO

12 DEF

2 RES

34 CRIT

4 CEV

And he can take a Javelin at the cost of 4 MT, 5 HIT, and 30 CRIT if he wants 1-2 range.

Well, offensively it's 25 (20) CRIT against 2 (0) MT + DEF-RES gap, 36 (31) HIT, and 2 (4) AS. Saleh can also grab the Body Ring this chapter for no AS loss from Elfire. If Cormag takes the javelin, it's a blowout. That AS leads to Saleh doubling more. And if either or neither double, Saleh does more damage- especially if Cormag pull out a javelin. Cormag has to rely upon the extra crit to potentially beat Saleh. And the Killer Lance only has 20 uses.

Defensively it's 4 DEF vs. 7 CEV, 11 (15) AVO, and 11 RES. And Saleh has 1-2 range over him if Cormag wants to keep decent offense. Oh, and Saleh doesn't have to worry about bows. And C staves>>>1 MOV + flying here.

So Saleh gets 1+ chapters of being awesome while Cormag doesn't exist, and then beats Cormag everywhere once he decides to show up.

Chapter 14 rolls around and I doubt either of them have leveled up more than once, so it's a pretty similar story.

Chapter 15 comes and they're both awesome here. Cormag has unlimited supply to Killer Lances and Saleh's got Physics. This chapter Elfire is buyable, as well.

3 Saleh w/ Elfire and Body Ring:

31 HP

26.6 MT

128 HIT

14.8 AS

42 AVO

8.6 DEF

13.7 RES

9 CRIT

11.8 CEV

He could also potentially get C Gerik for this chapter, although it doesn't do too much and Saleh would be off away from Gerik anyways.

12 Cormag w/ Killer Lance (Javelin):

32.55 HP

25.65 MT (21.65)

92 HIT (87)

11.35 AS

27 AVO

12.75 DEF

2.45 RES

35 CRIT (5)

5 CEV

So how do they compare offensively?

Saleh ORKOs every wyvern rider with no problems if he takes thunder, let alone Elfire. Cormag, on the other hand, 3HKOs at best. Some of them he doesn't OHKO even with a critical. He has a 52.39% chance to ORKO. Not awful, but not at all reliable. If he takes out a javelin, then he drops to awful offense against them. Saleh wins.

Saleh also ORKOs all the pegs with thunder. Cormag ORKOs with a javelin, although much less reliable HIT. Saleh wins.

Saleh 2HKOs the Mercenaries and doubles most of the Iron Blade ones. Cormag 2HKOs all of them even with a javelin, but has no hopes of doubling. He's got a ~30% chance to crit. Close, but I'd give it to Saleh since I can rely on him to kill as opposed to relying on 30% chance.

Saleh 2HKOs all the Myrmidons, although he doesn't double. Cormag's in the same boat as with the Mercenaries. Cormag actually wins for once! Still, 30% ORKO is nothing amazing.

Cormag ORKOs the fighters- although only with 77 HIT before factoring in enemy AVO. Saleh ORKOs them with a basic fire tome. Saleh wins.

Mages! Can Cormag pull off a win? Nope, Saleh ORKOs with a fire tome. Cormag can pull out a javelin and easily ORKO. Well, as long as he hits. Saleh can also go up against them without worrying about dieing. Cormag can potentially be 2HKOd. Saleh wins.

Shamans! Maybe Cormag can pull off a win here? Oh, wait, Saleh ORKOs them with a lightning tome. Same story as with the mages here. Saleh wins again.

Cavaliers up next. Saleh still ORKOs with fire. Cormag needs a crit to ORKO. About 50% ORKO as opposed 100% for Saleh. Guess who still wins?

lolTroubadours.

Rangers up next. Saleh 2HKOs with Elfire. Cormag potentially OHKOs with a crit. Of course, he's also potentially ORKOed by them. I guess Cormag technically has better offense, but Saleh's the only one of the two to actually potentially fight them. Thus Saleh wins here, too.

Zerkers. Saleh 2HKOs with Elfire. Cormag 3HKOs with the Killer Lance- and 77 HIT before their AVO. One has a Devil Axe- which both are staying away from- and the other has a dragon axe. Cormag staying out of there. Saleh wins.

Both 3HKO the paladins, although Saleh potentially doubles. Cormag has crit. Ehh, pretty close, but Saleh will have a better time either finishing them off or setting up for someone else to finish them off than Cormag. Saleh wins.

Saleh can actually attack the bosses for decent damage without worrying about getting killed right away in return. He wins.

Defensively? Well, Cormag runs into trouble with axes, magic, bows, and the bosses. Saleh has to worry about the zerkers and can only take one hit from the bosses. Besides that the strongest enemies (Wyverns) 3HKO both. Beyond that, nothing threatens either of them. Then, Saleh has 15 AVO (30 against axes and shamans, 0 against swordies) plus terrain over Cormag.

Saleh clearly wins offense and still wins durability. On top of this he also has staves- including possibly Physic for 15 and definitely Physic after that.

Onto Chapter 16! I'll give Cormag 2 levels and Saleh 1 plus C Gerik.

20/4 Saleh C Gerik Elfire:

31.5 HP

26.9 MT

132 HIT

15.2 AS

44 AVO

8.9 DEF

14.05 RES

14 CRIT

17.2 CEV

14 Cormag Killer Lance (Javelin)

34.25 HP

26.75 MT (22.75)

95 HIT (90)

12.25 AS

30 AVO

13.25 DEF

2.75 RES

35 CRIT (5)

5.75 CEV

Offensively again? Saleh ORKOs Knights with fire, Cormag 3HKOs with ~30 crit. Saleh wins.

Cavaliers: Saleh ORKOs with fire, Cormag 2HKOs w/ Killer Lance or better. I'd still give it to Saleh for being able to fall back on weaker weapons.

Shamans- Saleh ORKOs with Shine, Cormag ORKOs with a Javelin- and 70 HIT. Saleh wins since I know I can rely on him to not miss.

Fighters? Saleh ORKOS easily, Cormag 2RKOs with his Killer Lance... and 59 HIT. Saleh wins.

Mages? Saleh still ORKOs. Cormag ORKOs with the javelin and 70 HIT... if their speed rounds down. Saleh for reliability.

Mercs: Both 2HKO. Saleh has 84 HIT w/ Elfire (and can drop to fire for more accuracy) and Cormag has 64. Saleh.

lolpriests

lolthieves

Great Knights. Whoo-hoo. Saleh borderline ORKOs. Cormag 4RKOs at best, 5RKOs (with 53 HIT) at worst. Saleh by miles.

Warriors. Saleh 3HKOs and might miss the double. Cormag 4HKOs w/ just over 50 HIT and doesn't double ever. Saleh, again, by miles.

Heroes. Saleh 2-3HKOs and doesn't double. Cormag 3HKOs at best and 4HKOs w/ ~40 HIT and will get doubled. Gee, I wonder who wins? *coughSalehcough*

Sages! Cormag 2HKOs w/ just over 60 HIT and ~30 CRIT. Saleh 4HKOs. W/ over 99% real hit. Cormag's actually got a lower chance of killing them in 4 rounds than Saleh is before you factor in critical, and Saleh's got an enemy phase against them. And to think, it actually looked like he might win somewhere!

Druids! Saleh 3HKOs and doubles, Cormag 2HKOs and doesn't. Meh.

Swordmaster! Saleh 2RKOs, Cormag 2RKOs. Meh.

Orson? Cormag 5HKOs w/ <30 HIT. rofl. Saleh 4HKOs w/ ~65 HIT. Saleh wins.

Durably? Strongest enemy on the map 2HKOs both. Silver Axe heroes actually potentially ORKO Cormag. Saleh has 14 more AVO before factoring in WTD/WTA. Oh, and don't forget that Cormag's facing crit rates. Yeah, Saleh still wins. And he definitely has Physic by now, too.

Onto chapter 17. I'll say they both got a level, although it doesn't change much. 13 AS doubles fighters, cavaliers, and druids. 15 AS doubles valkyries, great knights, some pallies, the sage, and wyvern riders as well as the previous. If Saleh gets 16, he doubles everything but the Wyvern Lord, Zerker, SM, Heroes, and Lyon. Saleh borderline 2HKOs most promoted enemies, easily 2HKOs the unpromoted ones. Cormag, on the other hand, has trouble 2HKOing unpromoted enemies. Promoted ones (especially Warriors) just laugh at his pitiful damage and poor hit rates. Saleh also gets Fimbulvetr this chapter.

Defensively? SF says that there's a shield this chapter, which Saleh can grap for 32 HP/11 DEF compared to Cormag's 35 HP/13.5 DEF. Occasionally this lets Cormag take another hit, but Saleh still has his avoid and 1-2 range on player phase to make up for it.

And then Cormag has flier utility for this chapter against Saleh's staff utility.

So, it looks like Cormag is actually starting to tie Saleh in non-offense areas! Unfortunately for Cormag, he's still losing after 6 chapters and there's only 4 left in the game.

Onto chapter 18! Cormag wants to promote now to close the gap.

16/1 (Wyver Knight) Cormag Killer Lance/Short Spear.

38.95 HP

28.85/27.85 MT

101/91 HIT

16.15 AS

32 AVO

13.75 DEF

4.05 RES

37/7 CRIT

6.45 CEV

20/6 Saleh Elfire/Fimbulvetr

32.5 HP

27.5/30.5 MT

138/133 HIT

16/14 AS

48/44 AVO

11.5 DEF

14.75 RES

14 CRIT

13 CEV

Offensively? Saleh loses to Cormag against Gorgons, although Saleh has ~50 more hit w/ light magic, so it's not as though Cormag's really destroying him here.

Saleh easily ORKOs everything else if he doubles, Cormag misses Baels if he doesn't score a critical. And it's not as if Cormag's hit problems have gone away completely. 70-80 hit rates aren't amazing. Saleh just doesn't miss. Meh.

Chapter 19! I'll give them both 2 levels. Cormag got another 2 HP, 1 STR, 1 SPD, 1 LUK, and 1 DEF. Saleh got 1 HP, definitely has 18 MAG, 1 SKL, 1 SPD, 1 LUK, definitely has 12 DEF, and is borderline on another RES point.

Nothing but a few GK, Pallies, MKs, and Warriors have 11-12 AS, and only Heroes reach 18 AS, so Saleh can go to Fimbulvetr

for clear offense wins against all the other enemies. Against those enemies? Cormag wins against MKs, but Warriors have a 4-7 DEF/RES gap and axes (lol>50 HIT lead), Pallies have 2-4, GKs 6-8 (Saleh can also potentially have >50 more hit here), and Heroes have 6-8 as well as axes.

So Saleh still wins clearly in offense.

But can Cormag finally pull off a major defense win? Not really. He's occasionally taking an extra hit, but he's still facing higher hit rates, existant crit rates, and has no good 1-2 range to use for player phase as well bow weakness. And Saleh has staff utility as well. Cormag just doesn't have time to create a big enough win (if he can create one at all) to come close to canceling out what Saleh's done.

Just a quick comparison for endgame:

20/10 Saleh Excalibur (effective) B Gerik (5-6 turns a chapter. It's doable)

34.5 HP

55.7 MT

142 HIT

14.6 AS

50 AVO

13.7 DEF

17.15 RES

30 CRIT

24.6 CEV

And he can take Elfire for 3 AS if it helps.

16/5 (or 20/1) Cormag Vidofnir (effective)

42.35 HP

51 MT

123 HIT

17.95 AS

44 AVO

14.75 DEF

4.65 RES

7-8 CRIT

7.85 CEV

So, offensively, Cormag only wins if he doubles and Saleh doesn't and Saleh doesn't ORKO with another tome. Saleh has 5 + DEF/RES gap MT, 19 HIT, and 22-23 CRIT over Cormag otherwise.

Defensively, it's 6.85 HP and 1.05 DEF vs. 6 AVO, 12.5 RES (I know it's just RES, but that's a lot), 16.75 CEV (guess who isn't facing crits?), and 1-2 range. I can actually see Saleh winning there. And Saleh still has his staff utility.

So Cormag's hard pressed to win at all come endgame. Saleh has 1+ chapters of Cormag not existing, then crushes him for 4+, wins for a few, and then comes out about even at the end. I think it's quite clear who wins.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Slize

[CATS]

Cormag is auto-leveled to 11 on Eir Route.

11 Cormag: 15.1 Str, 10.9 Spd----31.7 Hp, 12.5 Def

Killer lance becomes buyable next chapter so that's no issue.

Saleh can grab the body ring? lol. He's hardly the only candidate for that or the best user of it. If he takes this then Cormag gets an energy ring or something, but rly, it's best to compare without giving either one any highly contested or limited resources. And it looks like you tried to give Saleh the Ch 17 Dracoshield too? lol. If that's happening, then we might as well give Cormag Vidofnir.

Res lead, sure. Good thing Ch 13 has zero mages. What it does have are enemies with 18-19 Atk that 3HKO Saleh and 5-6HKO Cormag. fail. Steel sword merc with 18 Atk 3HKOs Saleh and 7-8HKOs Cormag. lol. Cormag wins defense. Offense is debatable. Saleh wins against knights and cavs, but then there are mercs and rangers which neither one can double, and Cormag carries the higher chance to crit and kill those, while also reducing Saleh's wins against other enemies with his crit chance. Saleh might reliably one-round knights, but Cormag one-rounds them slightly over half the time anyways. So Cormag at his worst is already pretty debatable against Saleh. That's not good for Saleh.

The gap in Exp gains between them is hilarious. Cormag gets ~30 Exp for a kill while Saleh bags only 6 or 7. Cormag's Exp gains are 4-5 times higher.

"but staves"

Yeah, 5 Exp for a heal. It gives less than attacking. Will Saleh heal 20 times, on turns where Cormag also doesn't attack, in Ch 13 and 14 combined? Obviously not. It's doubtful that there will even be 20 turns where Cormag doesn't attack. So staves aren't even giving Saleh one extra level of Exp. Insignificant. Now let's move on, since Cormag's Exp gains are 4-5 times higher, it's perfectly fair to give him 2 levels and Saleh none. If Saleh got a level in Ch 12 and 13 combined, that would imply he's growing at 0.5 levels per chapter, which is 1/4 of Cormag's growth rate of 2 levels per chapter, when in reality Saleh's Exp gains fall in between 1/4-1/5 of Cormag's. I guess 1 level between 12 and 13 combined is fair for Saleh, but then I'm going to put Cormag's at 13-14 for more accuracy.

13-14/1 Cormag: 16.5 Str, 12.05 Spd----33.8 Hp, 13.1 Def

But wait, there's more! You get an Elysian Whip in Ch 8, and Cormag joins with another one. One for Vanessa, one for him. So Cormag can promote whenever the hell he wants to. Let's try that out.

13-14/1 Wyvern Knight Cormag: 17.5 Str, 15.05 Spd----36.8 Hp, 13.1 Def

Hell yeah, massive offense.

3 Saleh: 16.3 Mag, 14.4 Spd----30.5 Hp, 8.3 Def

+6 Hp, +5 Def. Ouch. Gonna slap another level on them and go to chapter 15.

13-14/2 Wyvern Knight Cormag: 18.05 Str, 15.5 Spd----37.65 Hp, 13.35 Def

4 Saleh: 16.6 Mag, 14.8 Spd----31 Hp, 8.6 Def

Defense gap is still pretty fail for Saleh. This chapter has boatloads of flying enemies and many of your units can't move, so it's extremely difficult to block him off from those steel lance wyvern knights that 2-3HKO him. Cormag is much better off in this respect with his large Hp/Def lead; he can take nearly twice as many attacks as Saleh. Steel lance, steel lance, javelin, javelin, he's still alive, and he can lay down counters on all of those wyverns that take off over half their health. Saleh can one-round them, but he can only fight one or two at a time. Cormag ultimately has the advantage because his movement isn't as limited; Cormag bumrushing into a group of 4 wyverns does about the same damage as Saleh luring in 2 of them, but afterwards, Cormag is alot farther ahead than Saleh since he didn't have to hold back to avoid getting killed. He'll reach the next group of enemies sooner than Saleh will.

But wait, there's more! That's before factoring in Cormag's killer lance. Send him up against 3 steel lance wyverns with the killer lance, and what happens? His chance to crit or pierce is 61-62%. He's almost guaranteed to kill atleast one of them, and on average he's going to kill a second one aswell since his chances are over 50%. The 3rd one is almost dead. This is more damage than Saleh is doing, and again Cormag has the advantage of being able to move farther ahead into enemy ranges.

Then there's the enemies where Saleh's offensive advantage is small or non-existent, so that Cormag just outright wins without any room for debate. There's quite a few steel lance pegs flying around with 19-20 Atk, cleanly 3HKO'ing Saleh. Cormag is 6-7HKO'd; over twice as durable. And since they're steel lance pegs, both one-round. Iron blade mercs with 10 AS are dying to both of them, but Cormag wins durability by a hilarious margin. Saleh is still getting 3HKO'd, while Cormag is 8HKO'd. There's iron sword mercs with more Spd and less Atk, so that Cormag now wins offense and wins defense by even more. Neither one double on average, but Cormag is more likely to pull off a double (he only needs to be 1-2 points above average, while Saleh needs to be above average by 2-3 points) and has a higher chance of a critkill in the event that he doesn't double. Those guys have like 15 Atk, so the defense is just funny. Cormag is 58HKO'd or something like that.

You mentioned magic enemies, but pure water exists and is buyable. Cormag + pure water has 11 Res. Mages 6-7HKO him. Saleh is invincible, sure, but this is a much smaller advantage than Cormag has against the physical enemies. Cormag can still fight 3-4 of them twice in a row. Saleh can't fight 3-4 wyverns at one time ever. Also consider that Cormag can frequently OHKO these guys and avoid their counters. 28 Atk OHKOs 3 out of 5 mages and 7 out of 8 shamans by my count.

Aside from all that, though, Cormag would probably win this chapter even if he weren't better in combat (and he is). Both can move in the sand, but Cormag has 14 aid, while Saleh has only 7. Cormag can rescue almost anyone, while Saleh can rescue only a few people. Cormag can rescue, say, GK Franz and carry him out across the desert to rape things. The team that uses Cormag can use him to ferry a land unit out into the field who normally wouldn't be able to get out there in time to do anything, so you get Cormag's capabilities + those of another unit. Saleh can try to do this, but he's much, much worse at it. Again, his aid is much less, he can't move again after rescuing/dropping, he has 2 less move, and he can't fly over impassable terrain. Cormag will leave him in the dust if he tries it.

So Ch 15 is a rapefest. Cormag was debatable when he joined, and 2 chapters later he's owning.

The rest of your stuff is assuming Cormag is still unpromoted for some reason, so w/e. I'm not going to do a chapter-by-chapter deal since it's repetitive and tl;dr. I'll just do Ch 17.

13-14/5 Wyvern Knight Cormag: 19.7 Str, 16.85 Spd----40.2 Hp, 14.1 Def

7 Saleh: 17.5 Mag, 16 Spd----32.5 Hp, 9.5 Def

Axereaver is buyable from the shop at the start of this chapter. Pretty convenient. There's only a few axe enemies though, so w/e.

Silver sword heroes have 27 Atk. Cormag is 4HKO'd, Saleh 2HKO'd. Cormag's chance of crit/pierce is about 35%, so he wins.

Silver lance paladins also have 27 Atk, so that's the same. Saleh isn't one-rounding, as Thunder won't 2HKO, and if he uses Elfire he's no longer fast enough to double. Cormag's odds of a one-round are ~56%. Cormag wins again.

etc

Druids make things a little more interesting, since Cormag doesn't win durability against them. But at the same time, Saleh can only 2RKO them, while Cormag easily ORKOs, so it's still not a clear win for Saleh.

Then you have to keep in mind all the rivers and mountains here. Lots of impassable terrain going around. Cormag can lift land units over the water and give people like Franz a shortcut to the gate. Saleh's stuck being one of the foot units who hopes he can get a lift.

Really not much else to talk about. Cormag rapes on Ch 18 because of mobility. There's very few actual enemies on the map; most of what you're up against are gorgon eggs, and it's extremely preferable to kill all of those before they hatch. This requires quite a bit of bumrushing, and again there's very few enemies in the way (and anyone can easily one-round the eggs), so it comes down to how fast you can reach the eggs, which Cormag obviously wins at.

The bottom line is Cormag wins durability forever and offense is only debatable at best. Saleh's better at 2HKO'ing things, this is true, but in situations where neither can one-round (i.e. many if not all promoted enemies), Cormag's higher chance to crit/pierce gives him the higher chance to kill, and he also has a slight win in AS.

"but staves"

Sure, if you actually needed a 3rd or 4th healer, which you don't in most situations. You're not going to have 3 or 4 significant injuries to heal on each player phase. Quite the opposite; the enemies tend to focus on one unit as much as they can, so at best you'll likely only have 2 units who got attacked by however many enemies there were. Even if this were significant, Cormag's mobility advantage is obviously pretty significant too, so they would just cancel out and leave Cormag holding better combat and Saleh holding nothing. Either way, Cormag wins.

[Rewjeo]

(I didn't even see that you'd posted this until last night, sorry)

Really? Who uses the Body Ring better? There's Vanessa, but her extra speed and +5 MT from supports more than makes up for it. Lute? She can just go MK for more CON. Natasha? She and Saleh fill very similar roles and both want the Body Ring, so clearly the player won't use both of them at the same time. And everyone who wants it either has their problems fixed by promotion, or (in the case of Natasha) caused by promotion. Saleh is getting the benefit from it the longest, and then there's another one in chapter 15. No one deserves it more than Saleh.

And the dracoshield? No one gets the durability boost Saleh does from it. Oh, and guess who DID give Vidofnir to Cormag?

Offense? Well, for starters, I'd like to point out that Saleh has 30+ hit on Cormag. Two levels hardly fixes that. You can't just ignore the chances of Cormag possibly missing. Saleh also hits harder and is faster. Now, if anyone except you had enemy stats for this part of the game, maybe I'd be able to point out where he wins. But, alas, you're able to pick and choose what enemies to bring up and make it seem as though Cormag has both better offense and defense, even when it isn't true. And I'll bring up those Rangers soon.

Defense? Saleh has good 1-2 range, so he isn't taking counters on player phase. This matters a lot on those Rangers. If it's a swordie and Cormag does what he'll do 70+% of the time, then he takes two counter attacks. Saleh takes one. Bows? Cormag whiffs these, and he's dead. He's taking a lot more damage than Saleh here. It also means that he isn't a sitting duck for all of those enemies with 1-2 range on enemy phase, as well. His need for a killer lance certainly doesn't help his durability. And then Saleh has ~10 AVO on Cormag, so he'll get hit less often anyways. Oh, and Cormag's at risk of getting critted thanks to his amazing luck.

So, Cormag's getting 300 EXP in half a chapter? Yeah, right. He's not getting that until we're FINISHED with chapter 14.

Fail on your part, right there. At level four, Saleh has 17 MAG, easily 15 SPD, 31.5 HP, and 9 DEF. 11 if we gave him the chapter 9 dragonshield.

So, since I already showed Saleh's offense in chapter 15, let's see what Cormag can win against: Rangers... with the whole durability problem from before. Myrmidons? If he gets a lucky crit/pierce. Same thing with Mercs. Not a very big lead. Zerkers, one of which has a dragon axe and both have the whole WTA thing, so Cormag doesn't really come close to winning against them. Paladins? Cormag's got a decent chance here. For once. And Cormag's hit problems haven't gone away, either. Especially if he's up against an axe user.

Durability? It takes a pretty specific set of enemies for Cormag to pull off a really significant advantage on durability, which Saleh can easily make up for on player phases. And Saleh still has a slight win in avoid and is also not facing crit rates. Now, if Cormag bumrushes, he faces a good chance of dieing. The more he rushes forward, the more he gets attacked. And he also has problems with axes, magic (Pure waters and killer lances and soon silver lances and short spears and axereavers. Cormag can't carry that much around, especially once they have fewer uses unless we just throw away thousands in equipment), and bows. He needs someone (like maybe Saleh?) to devote their time to Physicing him. So you can either lose one healer and their offense or you can have Cormag be conservative. Player's pick, but on a chapter like this, I'd rather not lose my healer and still potentially reset thanks to crits. So, Cormag isn't really rushing ahead all that much. And then you say he's rescuing? Well, there goes all his offense as well as crappy durability. Saleh's running around frying stuff and healing our units.

Chapter 17, eh? Cormag takes a hit from the heroes on player phase. He is now 3HKOd. A whopping one hit lead on Saleh. Maybe less with the dracoshield Wow. And then there's axes, too. Now, you might say "but axereaver!" and then he has WTD on swordies. Awesome, huh? Saleh doesn't have to bother with that.

Sorry, Saleh cleanly ORKOs the palies. There's no reason to not give him the body ring in chapter 13. And even if we aren't, he's now got the chapter 15 one. 100%>>>>56%.

Might I ask what weapon Saleh was using against those druids? He's not exactly incapable of taking out a better light tome. And even if he only 2RKOs, he doesn't have to worry about dieing. I, for one, don't throw my units places where I KNOW they could easily die.

If Cormag shoots ahead on chapter 18, then someone needs to stay behind and get the OTHER eggs. Saleh can do that. Not only that, but Saleh can restore our units if they've been stoned. Cormag can't do that, can he?

I already compared them at endgame when Cormag DIDN'T promote early, so he gained more levels. Guess who won? Saleh. 'member that?

Onto staves! Saleh is NOT your third or fourth healer. He's your second at worst as Natasha won't be in play. Behind him you've got Lute, Artur, Knoll, Ewan, and L'arachel. L'arachel's the only one who might boast a staff rank good enough for physic, but she won't be in play very often. lolEwan. lolKnoll. Artur and Lute don't have staves for as long and can't use as good of staves. This leaves Moulder as the only healer who'd be above him. And a 2nd string healer is never bad. And look at all those healers that are high up on the tier lists! Moulder, Natasha, Micaiah, Laura, Priscilla, Clarine, Serra, etc. And a lot of them don't have great offense from the getgo. Saleh can Physic someone when they get an unlucky crit. Like maybe Cormag? Saleh can Physic someone who just needs to be healed. This gives him an edge in leveling, as well. Cormag's only answer to this is flier utility, but that only touches the surface at this point. In chapter 15, it gives him better mobility. But I've already explained why he won't be able to totally utilize it, and Saleh's awesome there, too. Chapter 17? Rescue/dropping people is slow, especially when we've already got a bunch of mounted units who can rush to the gate while someone (hi Saleh) heals them from behind and takes care of the enemies near the beginning. 18? There are eggs close to the start and Saleh has restore as well as physic for this chapter. 19? Physic means a crapton more than flyer utility here. FoW means that Cormag can't even fly out very far at all, especially with how terrifying the enemies are here. 20? Morva's got insane attack and there are plenty of other enemies over there to finish your units off. I'd like to take care of the other units first. And if you DO head over there and go after Morva first, guess who's physic can make it safer? Certainly not Cormag's.

As a minor note, Saleh's also got siege tomes. It isn't much, but it's still there. Especially for the tougher enemies.

And of course, you chose to completely ignore Saleh's 1.5 chapters of being your second best unit. And only losing to lolSeth. He's got great offense, staves, and good durability. Cormag has absolutely no answer to that, and he's never that good compared to your team. And he's never got a support from Gerik, either.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Slize

[CATS]

Who makes the best use of body rings is extremely debatable. For example.

With Lute and Vanessa it's not about offense; a body ring allows Lute to promote to Sage instead of MK and not lose AS from Thunder. This way she gets +1 Def/Res in promo gains and light magic (which prevents her from getting hit by Stone, useful in Ch 18 and 20), and loses her horseslayer weakness (enemies with these weapons exist in Ch 16, 18 and 20), while still keeping the main benefit of going Mage Knight. She also loses 1 move, but in exchange she gains 4 move in the desert, so that about evens out. Another option is to just go Mage Knight anyways and apply the body ring for Elfire and Excalibur. Ch 16 Warriors have up to 51 Hp and 6 Res. Lute needs 32 Atk to reliably 2HKO those, which she can't reliably get with Thunder until 20/9 or 20/10, and with 4 AS loss from Elfire, that won't reliably double. However, with Elfire and only 2 AS loss, she can comfortably 2HKO starting at 20/5 or 20/6, and her Spd at those levels is enough to double almost all Warriors with the 2 AS loss.

A body ring lets Vanessa promote to FalcoKnight and keep most of the benefits of Wyvern Knight. That +30 Avo/+2 Def against axes is nice considering Ch 16 Warriors 2HKO her until around 20/12 or 20/13 as a WK and reavers aren't buyable til Ch 17. FK gives +2 Hp/+1 Def/+1 Res in addition to swords; now she avoids a 2HKO as early as 20/3 or 20/4 and never gets hit anyways. Meanwhile, Ch 17 Heroes have up to 16 AS. She can't double that with a killer lance until 20/5 or 20/6 as a FK, and her chances of having less than 24 Spd don't become negligible until 2-3 levels after that; but with the body ring in play, she can double at 20/1 or 20/2, and keep the defensive benefits mentioned above. Even if she could reliably double as a FK, the body ring still nets her +4 Avo.

etc. I could talk about this all day long. We could probably fill up a whole separate debate with discussion about who's best for body rings and why. The issues here are these. 1: Saleh clearly has stiff competition; if he is best, it is by a small margin. 2: You have not accounted for this opportunity cost. Tossing the body ring onto Saleh and giving him its full benefit is akin to assuming that he is the only one who can use it or that other units get 0 benefit out of it. Both of those are extremely false. The opportunity cost is significant and must be accounted for, and after you take it into account, Saleh's benefits are negligible at best. Even if he gets +2 from the body ring, Lute or whoever gets +1.8, so the net benefit accrued by Saleh is extremely small and, overall, not worth mentioning. And again, that's even assuming he's the best, which hasn't been proven and would indeed be extremely difficult to conclusively prove.

Your proof for the dracoshield is even weaker. My counter is thus: Others get at least the same durability boost as Saleh does from it. Considering Def is subjected to the whims of the RNG, and is generally in greater demand than Con, it is even more difficult to make a case for Saleh getting a dracoshield. If you want to try and take these stat boosters into the comparison somehow, I assure you that Cormag will benefit more from a similar analysis of how many Silver Lance/Brave Lance/Vidofnir uses you have and how many he is entitled to.

Gerik support is fairly worthless. It starts too late to do much of anything. The bonuses are crappy, for starters. You get nothing substantial until B rank. At 5 turns per chapter it reaches B rank during the final. lol, why even bother? Saleh can pick up that B in like, Ch 20 maybe. The improvement that Cormag gets starting at Ch 20 (buyable silver lances) is alot more significant. Also, if it's happening, Cormag too gets a support. He can pick up a C with Natasha or Artur around the same time as Saleh gets B Gerik, negating some of Saleh's support bonuses and rendering supports an even more worthless point for Saleh.

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I didn't "pick and choose" stats on Ch 13. I openly acknowledge Saleh has better offense against knights and cavaliers on this chapter. That's it. Everything else either Cormag doubles and 2HKOs, or Saleh can't double. Archers have 6-7 Spd. Soldiers are, well, soldiers. And again, I assure you that you can pick any Atk value on the map and Cormag will have better defense than Saleh. Cormag's +1-2 Hp and +4-5 Def are not dependent on which enemy samples I pick. And again, I didn't pick outliers anyways. The vast majority of the enemies are using iron lances and have 16-18 Atk.

Saleh's accuracy is a minor point. A large number of the enemies are soldiers and knights; Cormag + killer lance still has ~95% hit against those. It's reduced by a greater amount against archers and cavs, but it's still above 80%. This is easily countered by some minor point on Cormag's side, for example, the possibility of Cormag using one of your specialized lances (heavy spear, horseslayer).

1-2 range and Avo indeed. Cormag still has better defense. Notice that he's taking several more hits than Saleh, not just one more. 17 Atk 7-8HKOs Cormag while it 4HKOs Cormag. A knight with 17 Atk and 94 Hit does 3.56 average damage per round vs Cormag; against Saleh it does ~5.4 and Saleh has less Hp. On average, Cormag is 9RKO'd, while Saleh is 6RKO'd. Saleh needs to exercise his 1-2 range avoiding-counters magic 3 times consecutively before they even equalize in average #RKO. And Cormag always has the advantage in how many enemies he can counter at one time. Since enemies can have 18 Atk, Saleh's in danger of getting 3HKO'd.

CEV is an extremely minor point. Nothing on Ch 13 will have over 10 Skl except rangers and mercs. The former shouldn't be attacking him, and he wins defense against the latter anyways. A merc will probably have 1% crit on Cormag; since a merc only does 3-4 damage, a crit won't kill Cormag, and indeed Cormag barely takes more damage than Saleh even if he is crit'd. A steel sword merc with 17 Atk does 10.5 damage to Cormag on a crit, and 9 damage to Saleh on a normal hit. And again, his chance to crit Cormag is less than 1% (1% crit and he also has to hit first).

Cormag's bow weakness would hurt him alot more if bows countered him. But they don't; he can easily move in and attack a bow user from out of its range after it's been lured in (and indeed, you need to lure those rangers in, they have huge Atk range and there's alot of enemies in front of them), and afterwards he need never have taken a hit from that bow enemy. All Saleh has in this respect is that he can safely lure in rangers, but many can do that and it's not adding anything significant. The fact that they'll target Cormag over Saleh is irrelevant, as they shouldn't survive past the turn that they're initially lured in considering they have huge range and can rape multiple units. In the unlikely event that they live, they should be surrounded so that they can't do anything on enemy phase and don't force you to retreat and form a wall in front of your weak units, and Cormag can even participate in this tactic after taking a shot with his killer lance. All they can do now is attack with their swords, which don't threaten Cormag.

Meanwhile, Cormag attacking them on player phase helps you to kill them with fewer units and move past them sooner. His chance to crit is higher than Saleh's, and a crit will easily OHKO. The inherent advantages of flying are easily more significant than being able to lure in rangers. For example, Ch 13 has peaks sitting right in the middle of the field. Cormag can attack enemies from those spaces and leave the land tiles open for your numerous land units, allowing you to get more attacks in at a time, particularly notable since Ch 13 (as mentioned already) gives you numerous bottlenecks where not everyone can reach an enemy and attack. Saleh attacking is occupying a spot from which another unit could've moved in and attacked instead, but with Cormag hitting from a peak, this isn't the case.

Cormag getting 300 Exp? Never was this mentioned. He's getting ~250 on average according to my post, with some fluctuation in either direction. The level given was 13-14, not 14. And indeed, he's not getting it until the tail end of 14. Your point? The comparison was on Ch 15. L4 Saleh? As mentioned already, Cormag's leveling rate is 4-5 times higher than Saleh's. If Saleh gained 200 Exp in 3 chapters, then he got ~100 Exp between 13 and 14 together, meaning Cormag should've gotten 400-500 and been on level 15 or 16. And yes, that's taking into account that Cormag isn't there from the start on 13. (200 / 3 = 66.6 Exp per chapter) ; (66.6 * 1.5 chapters = 100). We can roll with that assumption I guess.

4 Saleh: 16.6 Mag, 14.8 Spd----31 Hp, 8.6 Def

15-16/1 WK Cormag: 18.55 Atk, 15.95 Spd----38.5 Hp, 13.65 Def

Let's see what Cormag can win against? More like, let's see what Saleh can win against: wyvern riders, and that's it, and I talked about those already. "If he gets a lucky crit/pierce?" Realize that the gap in % chance to kill against myrms or w/e is similar to the gap against wyverns. There's a 22-23% gap in crit chance, and then Cormag is better at doubling. He has 16 Spd, and steel sword myrms have 12-13 AS. His chance to get 17 Spd and double them all is around 1/3; Saleh's chance is 0%. Even if Saleh proc'd Spd twice, his Spd is only equal to Cormag's average Spd. Meanwhile, Cormag's chances to crit or pierce against a wyvern are around 60%.

No, it doesn't take a pretty specific set of enemies for Cormag to pull off a really significant advantage on durability. His Hp/Def are much higher and everything (barring effective weapons) is killing him in more hits. Again, steel lance wyverns with 23-24 Atk. 23 Atk 5HKOs Cormag and 3HKOs Saleh. Most enemies have less than that, so that the gap gets wider. Steel lance peg with 20 Atk? Cormag is 6-7HKO'd, Saleh is still 3HKO'd. Steel sword myrm with 18 Atk? Cormag is 9HKO'd (without factoring WT in), Saleh 4HKO'd. Iron sword merc with 15 Atk? Cormag is like 30HKO'd (again, before accounting for WT).

1-2 range doesn't make up for this at all, particularly considering Cormag himself can now emulate it in many situations. Cormag tossing a javelin at a merc is similar to Saleh hitting it once with whatever tome; both 2HKO. If that's preferable, Cormag can do that. However, Cormag has the option to run up and attack with the killer lance in order to increase his ORKO chance; Saleh doesn't have that. Cormag taking counters is also dependent on him both getting hit and not critting on his first hit. A steel lance wyvern has 48.51% hit on him, and Cormag has 34% crit; the chance that Cormag doesn't crit and the wyvern hits him is only 32%. With that in mind, 6 player phases would need to pass without any healing for either one before they would equalize in average #RKO against a 23 Atk wyvern, and by then Saleh has a significant chance of death anyways, so he's almost never going that long without needing healing. Saleh's Avo no longer matters, either. He has 3 more Avo, lol.

Axes, you say? They mostly have iron, so they have less Atk than the aforementioned steel lance wyverns even with WT taken into account. 21 Atk is the most common value against Cormag, and that 6HKOs him, while the same enemies 3HKO Saleh. Saleh does get a nice Avo lead here, but you can't mention this against Cormag and then gloss over the fact that sword enemies also exist (and are indeed more common than axes on this map) and that Cormag wins by a huge margin against them, so w/e. Even if Saleh wins here, it would be by a small margin, while Cormag wins by a huge margin against swords. An 18 Atk steel sword enemy 12HKOs Cormag and 4HKOs Saleh. Magic, I already talked about.

Cormag can easily rush ahead. You seem to have forgotten that it's the desert. Many enemies are restricted to 2-3 move while Cormag has 8; they can easily be avoided. Cormag can go past them and drop off Franz well ahead of the rest of the group, then canto back into the range of 2-3 enemies and counter on the enemy phase. His massive mobility combined with the limited mobility of many enemies means that he can pick and choose how many of them he wants to fight, to a very large extent. And it takes alot to bring Cormag down anyways. On average those steel lance wyverns have to attack him 10-11 times before he'll need healing, and those are some of the more threatening enemies on the map. He can fight the sword noobs all day long and never be in any danger. Rangers might hurt his flexibility here, if they were actually out in the desert section that you need to cross and not camping in the bottom by Valter, and they wouldn't have a decent attack range in the desert tiles even if they existed there.

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Ch 17. Cormag takes a hit from that hero on player phase? If it can, in fact, hit him, and if he doesn't pre-emptively crit it. The chance of that happening is under 50%. Against axes, yes, axereaver. The WTD against swords would hurt alot more if sword enemies were always mixed in with the axes and if you couldn't influence what was going to attack Cormag, but neither one of those is the case. You can position Cormag so that only certain enemies can reach him, you can trade weapons to the top of his inventory after he's attacked, and sword/axe enemies don't always exist together anyways. The axereaver gives +30 avo against axes, which is massive; the net benefit is not equal to +30, since it is reduced by the possibility of -30 against swords. But since you do have alot of control over how it's used, the overall net benefit is still highly positive, and the potential benefit is so high that it's a large advantage even with a significantly lower actual yield. For example, let's say the axereaver is only +15 Avo/+1 Def after accounting for the possibility that it hurts Cormag against swords.

Silver axe great knight: 30 Atk, 90 Hit

vs 15-16/5 Cormag w/ axereaver: 14.35 damage @ 21% hit against 42 Hp. Takes 14 rounds to die on average.

vs 8 Saleh: 20.2 damage @ 39.2% hit against 33 Hp. Takes 4-5 rounds to die on average.

As you can see, Cormag is still much, much, much better. Saleh doesn't have to bother with the axereaver? As if Cormag is forced to use it. More like, Saleh is unable to reap its benefits.

You can give Saleh whatever light tome you want against the druids. They can get up to 16 Res and 31 Hp. Saleh needs 32 Atk to 2HKO that. Divine is 9 Atk, so he needs 23 Mag. He doesn't get that until ever. At max level his average Mag is only 21.4. Doesn't have to worry about dying? Sure, Saleh wins defense here. He loses offense. It's not a clear advantage for him.

Ch 18. Yes, Saleh can stay behind and kill the eggs closer to your group. Anyone can do that. That's the point. You don't need more units who can kill the nearby eggs in order to clear faster, as you already have an excess of those units (considering how anyone can do that job); you do need more units who can reach the far-away eggs before they hatch and become dangerous. Saleh can use Restore? That would matter if there were alot of enemies using Stone on the map, but there aren't. There's only one non-boss enemy on the map who has Stone (I forget whether or not the boss has it, and the two aren't near each other anyways). You don't need more than one Restore user, so Saleh being able to do that adds nothing at all. There are however, a metric fuckton of eggs, so you need lots of units who are good at taking care of those. Enter Cormag.

I already compared them at endgame when Cormag DIDN'T promote early, so he gained more levels. Guess who won? Saleh. 'member that?

More levels? Surely you jest. You placed Cormag at 16/3 and Saleh at L8. Cormag gained 5 levels unpromoted in nearly the same time span that Saleh also gained 5......when Cormag's Exp gains, as indicated earlier, are 4-5 times higher. All Saleh had was one and something extra chapters of existence, yet you had him gain the same number of overall levels. It's more like:

15-16/7 Cormag: 21.85 Str, 18.65 Spd----43.6 Hp, 15.15 Def

10 Saleh: 18.4 Mag, 17.2 Spd----34 Hp, 10.4 Def

Let's review and see if Saleh is actually winning.

Generals have 29-30 Atk. Cormag is 3-4HKO'd, Saleh easily 2HKO'd. Offense is debatable. Even Fimbulvetr is borderline on 2HKO'ing; the generals have 41-42 Hp and 10-11 Res. If they get 11 Res, Saleh can't 2HKO. Meanwhile Cormag's chance of crit and/or pierce is 66-67%.

Swordmasters can get up to 25 crit, and a crit is death for Saleh, so he can't safely fight them. Cormag can get crit'd too, but he's taking much less damage and won't die if it happens. He also wins offense since neither one is doubling.

GKs can get 11 Spd and up to 42 Hp along with 8-10 Res. Saleh can't reliably 2HKO them at all. Elfire is borderline on doubling (15.2 AS on average against enemies that can get 11 AS) and very borderline on 2HKO'ing. Cormag packs his standard 2/3 chance to kill with a crit/pierce proc. Their Atk is similar to generals, so Cormag wins defense.

There's no need to continue with this. Everything is the same story. Saleh can't reliably double and 2HKO things, while Cormag sports high chances to crit/pierce on his attack and wins defense. I'll just mention a couple cases which are the exception to this.

Heroes: These guys' AS can dip as low as 14 in several instances, so Cormag has a shot at doubling them when Saleh can't, in which case he rapes massively on offense.

Snipers: This is the one case where Saleh can both double and 2HKO most of them on average. However, note that if he's below average on Spd by just 1 point, he can no longer double all of them with Elfire for the 2HKO. His odds of being at 16 Spd or less are ~32%, so his actual chance to one-round is ~68%. Cormag on the other hand can 2HKO and double them easily, since their Def is about the same as their Res. And since Cormag's Spd is higher, he's more likely to be able to ORKO, and in the event that he gets screwed, he has higher crit/pierce odds to fall back on.

Overall, Cormag wins offense. Saleh doesn't clearly win offense anywhere, while Cormag has multiple enemy types where he's the clear winner (Heroes, SMs, snipers, also paladins which I didn't mention yet; they can easily get 12 AS, so Saleh can't use Elfire on them, and Thunder isn't close to a 2HKO; also Cormag has a shot at 2HKOing the weaker paladins). Defense as usual is a win for Cormag.

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Yes, staves. Natasha isn't getting used? Can you explain why not? If a 2nd string healer is as good as you say it is, then Natasha is getting used until Saleh joins, atleast. Saleh might be a better staff user than Natasha, but the fact that she is an option and exists certainly devalues Saleh's utility. On Cormag's team, they're not going with only 1 healer for 12, 13 and 14. They still have 2, as Moulder and Natasha both exist. You might claim that Saleh will have the advantage of being a healer that can attack, but this, too, is not unique to him. You get 2 Guiding Rings by the time he joins, so atleast 2 other similar units can exist prior to Ch 15. By Ch 15, you have atleast 4 other viable options for healing. In all likelihood they won't all get used, but that serves only to demonstrate my point; if a 3rd or 4th healer were really that useful, you'd be using all of them and early-promoting Lute and Artur. The fact that you won't actually do this while playing the game is clear evidence that 3rd and 4th healers aren't actually needed or significantly useful.

For some evidence of a more numerical nature, consider the following. Let's say Ch 17, and an enemy with 30 Atk and 90 Hit (silver weapon great knight, perhaps). The following is not including WT.

20/5 GK Franz, B Seth: 57 Avo

20/8 Rogue Colm, B Moulder: 73 Avo

20/5 Eirika, A Seth: 71 Avo

20/5 Hero Gerik, A Tethys: 66 Avo

10 Seth, A Eirika, B Franz: 59 Avo

Hitrates against each:

Franz: 22.11%

Colm: 5.95%

Eirika: 7.41%

Gerik: 11.76%

Seth: 24.85%

With hitrates like these in the picture, you can see that you will not have 3 or 4 significant injuries that need to be healed on every turn. Even if all 5 of these units got attacked during the enemy phase, there's still approximately a 45% chance that none of them get hit. And since each one can easily counter atleast 2 enemies, you'd need to get attacked by 10+ enemies at once before they'd all be getting attacked, which is ofcourse rarely or never happening. You might complain that some enemies are more accurate than the sample that I used, but the simple fact is that enemies could have a fair bit more accuracy than that and you still wouldn't be seeing 3-4 injuries on every player phase. In the example given, PC durability is above that by a very large margin already.

This is also without considering additional factors into the situation. First there's WT. The player can influence WT to their favor and will do so whenever possible. Most units are wielding atleast 2 weapon types by promotion and reavers exist. Overall PC Avo goes up by a significant amount due to this, since WT bonuses are pretty significant in this game (+15 or +30 on a reaver). There's also terrain to consider. Terrain, too, can and will be manipulated in the player's favor whenever possible and also provides large Avo boosts. +20 is most common, but +30 Avo from hills also exists.

So what do you need a 3rd or 4th healer for? The bottom line is you don't. They're not adding anything to your efficiency. On top of this, simply consider that on the rare occasion that you do have alot of substantial injuries to heal, elixirs exist. Omg expensive, sure, but you get many of them for free and you do have cash to spare for some of them, especially during the lategame. If saved simply for the occasions on which they are needed (i.e. the rare situation that your healers can't handle everything on their own), you have more than enough of them, and they make additional healers beyond the 1st and 2nd even more useless and obsolete.

Ch 12 I ignored because there's nothing to say about it. Saleh exists and Cormag doesn't. That's a fact, and no counter-argument can make it false. They're debatable on 13 and 14, then Cormag starts raping on Ch 15, and Cormag keeps winning for the rest of the game. Winning on 7 chapters > winning on 1. And yes, I said 13 is debatable. Cormag doesn't show up until partway through, but he also has no opportunity cost of deployment here, since it's his join chapter. He doesn't consume a deployment slot in order to be on the map; Saleh does. So the chapter as a whole remains arguable.

Edited March 12, 2010 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

I've gotten really busy lately, so I haven't had time to work much on this. Just posting so you know that I haven't forgotten.