Tino Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Sain joins only a little later than Erk. Erk is pretty good in the two chapters he's in that Sain's not, but let's not dabble about the significance of a little less than two chapters (after all, Erk doesn't join right at the start of ch 14). So what levels do they come out of Lyn Mode? I generally have something like a lv 9 Kent/Sain and a lv 7 Erk, so I'll just say they're both lv 9 in ch 16. Stupid RPGDL is down, though (they really need to work with they're MySQL connections better), so simple averages will have to suffice. lv 9 Sain iron lance: 19.8 atk, 9.2 spd, 97.0 hit, 3.4 crt -- 25.4 hp, 25.2 avo, 7.6 def, 1.6 res iron sword: 17.8 atk, 107.0 hit javelin: 18.8 atk, 7.2 spd, 82.0 hit -- 21.2 avo lv 9 Erk thunder: 16.2 atk, 10.0 spd, 99.1 hit, 9.6 crt -- 22.2 hp, 25.4 avo, 3.6 def, 7.2 res This is really quite a difficult situation. Sain is considerably more durable, but doesn't have as great 1-2 range as Erk does. Plus Erk's offense is probably a bit better. I guess this requires me to take a look at some enemy stats, then. Actually, I'll just average them out a bit to make it shorter. Physical enemies average 14.3 atk against Sain (with WT taken into account. Against Erk this is 14.6 atk. 14.3 atk 4HKOes Sain. 14.6 atk nearly 2HKOes Erk. If there is, what, one slightly stronger enemy on the field, this average rises to 14.7 atk already, which is a 2HKO. If Erk got somewhat unlucky with either hp or def, he gets 2HKOed. If Sain has 1 def or hp less, there's no problem. 6.7 dmg per round still 4HKOes 24.4 hp, and 7.7 damage per round still 4HKOes 25.4 hp. So we can say Sain's concrete durability is twice as good as Erk's. And while that's no big surprise for physical vs magical, it does give Sain a little more flexibility. Oh, and Sain will also be able to dodge more attacks due to WTA against a fair amount of enemies, so his durability is more than twice as large as Erk's. Or make that just 2, because Erk does have 1-2 range. I really can't be bothered to say anything about magical enemies here. There's a grand total of 2 in a group of 45 enemies. Not really worth much, in my view. Erk wins against them, but it's worth next to nothing in the face of a huge-ass durability lead against ~96% of the enemies. On the offense, Sain is slightly worse than Erk. Sain 2.2RKOes the enemies on this map, Erk is 1.9RKOing. So we see more mobility and far better durability vs a slight offense lead. And even then, 2.2RKOing really isn't that bad, anyway. If Sain got a lucky spd level up, he'll be outperforming Erk on offense. If he got a lucky +1 str he'll be outperforming Erk on offense, if Erk got an unlucky -1 spd Sain will be outperforming Erk, and the list goes on. If Sain misses out on 1 hp or def, or if Erk has 1 more hp or def, Sain will still be superior defensively. So the win here goes to Sain hands down. And after this, when Sain has gotten like one or two more points of spd, Sain will be doubling about as much as Erk, so Sain will win by an even larger margin. Then later on they're both awesome killing machines, where Sain is far more durable and mobile and has full WT control, but Erk has staves and innate 1-2 range. I think what's going to play quite a bit factor here is promotion time, and this is where Erk has to hand it to Sain. Sain has to contend with Oswin, Kent and Lowen for a knight crest. All three of them are awesome. Erk has to contend with Serra, Priscilla, Lucius and Canas for a guiding ring, and most of them are pretty damn sweet, too. So how does Sain win this? Quite easy, actually. Kent and Sain will be leveling about equally, and it would be nonsense to discuss which of the two is going to promote first, so it's safe to assume Sain gets the second hero crest since Oswin is likely to get the first one. Assuming both Kent and Sain are in play, which isn't too unlikely, the earth seal comes only two chapters after the ch 22 knight crest, so that's not too big a deal. Lowen is going to promote quite a bit later than all three of them, so he won't be that big a problem in this whole mess. The point? Sain doesn't really have any problems promoting. Erk? He definitely does. First there is Serra, who will be levelling pretty quickly due to her healing capabilities (as will Priscilla, by the way). By the time you have the first two guiding rings in your posession, Serra will want to promote, Erk will want to promote, Priscilla will probably want to get an early promotion to get the benefit of attacking early, and a few chapters later, when the next guiding ring is available, Lucius/Canas will probably be nearing promotion time, too. All in all, Erk has far more competition than Sain when it comes to promoting, so Sain can fairly easily nab an advantage there. If he promotes first, he gets the benefits of that promotion for a longer time, so even if Erk's healing and 1-2 range would somehow be better than Sain's mobility, durability and full WT control, Sain being promoted longer would easily cancel that out, and then his earlygame superiority still gives him the win. But I'd say Sain's advantages upon promotion > Erk's advantages upon promotion, so Sain's win is even larger. Sain > Karla Oh, and Sain > Erk, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messy mike Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) Ah, Sain vs. Erk. Rambunctious and misogynistic womanizer vs. Disgruntled and masochistic escort. Sain obviously wins in personality. Unfortunately, personality does nothing for you in terms of beating the game. Sain joins only a little later than Erk. Erk is pretty good in the two chapters he's in that Sain's not, but let's not dabble about the significance of a little less than two chapters (after all, Erk doesn't join right at the start of ch 14). So what levels do they come out of Lyn Mode? I generally have something like a lv 9 Kent/Sain and a lv 7 Erk, so I'll just say they're both lv 9 in ch 16. Fair enough. Possibly a little high but for the most part reasonable. lv 9 Sain iron lance: 19.8 atk, 9.2 spd, 97.0 hit, 3.4 crt -- 25.4 hp, 25.2 avo, 7.6 def, 1.6 res iron sword: 17.8 atk, 107.0 hit javelin: 18.8 atk, 7.2 spd, 82.0 hit -- 21.2 avo lv 9 Erk Thunder: 16.2 atk, 10.0 spd, 99.1 hit, 9.6 crt -- 22.2 hp, 25.4 avo, 3.6 def, 7.2 res Fire: 13.2 atk, 11.0 spd, 109.1 hit, 4.6 crit -- 27.4 avo Added stats for Fire for Erk, since they're buyable in his join chapter. Physical enemies average 14.3 atk against Sain (with WT taken into account. Against Erk this is 14.6 atk. 14.3 atk 4HKOes Sain. 14.6 atk nearly 2HKOes Erk. If there is, what, one slightly stronger enemy on the field, this average rises to 14.7 atk already, which is a 2HKO. If Erk got somewhat unlucky with either hp or def, he gets 2HKOed. If Sain has 1 def or hp less, there's no problem. 6.7 dmg per round still 4HKOes 24.4 hp, and 7.7 damage per round still 4HKOes 25.4 hp. So we can say Sain's concrete durability is twice as good as Erk's. And while that's no big surprise for physical vs magical, it does give Sain a little more flexibility. Oh, and Sain will also be able to dodge more attacks due to WTA against a fair amount of enemies, so his durability is more than twice as large as Erk's. Or make that just 2, because Erk does have 1-2 range. Rounding his defensive stats, 15 Atk is needed to 2RKO Erk. The only enemies that regularly surpass 15 Atk are one Steel Bow Archer, a Steel Sword Cav reinforcement, and two Steel Sword Mercs, and Erk doesn't need to eat Player Phase coutners from any of them. Due to the heavy forestation, enemies in the north come at you fairly slowly anyways, so it's pretty safe to say that Erk is getting 3RKO'd most of the time. Plus Serra and/or Prissy start the chapter right by Erk, ready to heal him if the need arises. No healer starts near Sain, and that whole group only has one Vulnerary to share. Suddenly being 4RKO'd doesn't look so great, especially when Lyn and Wil are even less durable and want to share that Vulnerary. I really can't be bothered to say anything about magical enemies here. There's a grand total of 2 in a group of 45 enemies. Not really worth much, in my view. Erk wins against them, but it's worth next to nothing in the face of a huge-ass durability lead against ~96% of the enemies. Rounding Sain's stats, the Thunder Mages are only one point away from 2RKO'ing him, meaning they will be able to if he is one point under average on Res or HP or they are one point over on Mag. Balances out the few enemies who 2RKO Erk, making Sain's durability lead barely existent, let alone "huge-ass," especially with Sain's healing woes and the fact that Erk doesn't need to take counters. On the offense, Sain is slightly worse than Erk. Sain 2.2RKOes the enemies on this map, Erk is 1.9RKOing. So we see more mobility and far better durability vs a slight offense lead. And even then, 2.2RKOing really isn't that bad, anyway. If Sain got a lucky spd level up, he'll be outperforming Erk on offense. If he got a lucky +1 str he'll be outperforming Erk on offense, if Erk got an unlucky -1 spd Sain will be outperforming Erk, and the list goes on. If Sain misses out on 1 hp or def, or if Erk has 1 more hp or def, Sain will still be superior defensively. What that means is that Erk is generally 2 rounding and Sain is generally 3 rounding. Decimals unfortunately don't count. Erk can ORKO the Archers, about half of the Cavs depending on their AS/HP balance, the Pegs, most Brigands, and is borderline on the Mages. Sain can ORKO the single Steel Bow Archer and the Pegs and can one-shot the thief with a Steel Lance (if he hits him). Erk also does all this at 1-2 range, so everything that hits him gets hit back, reducing his turncount for the same number of kills. Plus, Sain takes counters and is doubled by the speedier Myrmidons. Erk clearly wins. Then later on they're both awesome killing machines, where Sain is slightly more durable and mobile and has full WT control, but Erk has staves and innate 1-2 range and the Def-Res gap. I think what's going to play quite a bit factor here is promotion time, and this is where they are in a similar situation. Fix'd it for you. Sain has to contend with Oswin, Kent and Lowen for a knight crest. All three of them are awesome. Erk has to contend with Serra, Priscilla, Lucius and Canas for a guiding ring, and most of them are pretty damn sweet, too... All in all, Erk has far more competition than Sain when it comes to promoting, so Sain can fairly easily nab an advantage there. I disagree. Oswin probably gets the first Knight Crest due to his level lead, Serra probably gets the first Guiding Ring due to level lead + the desire to attack. I'll be fair and give Sain the second Crest, but there's no way someone other than Erk gets the second Ring. Prissy joins about 4 levels lower than Erk, and can gain a maximum of 12 exp per turn, assuming she Mends every single turn. Following the maximum turns for 5* Tactics, this means she won't reach 20/0 until somewhere around Crazed Beast. Torch staff use can speed this up, but not bring it all the way back to the Dragon's Gate, especially since Serra is also taking potential staff exp. Lucius is also facing a level deficit as he joins at a lower level (he only has one tome to use for all of LHM) and joins 3.5 chapters after Erk. Lol level 8 Canas in chapter 17x. If he promotes first, he gets the benefits of that promotion for a longer time, so even if Erk's healing and 1-2 range would somehow be better than Sain's mobility, durability and full WT control, Sain being promoted longer would easily cancel that out, and then his earlygame superiority still gives him the win. Too bad Sain doesn't promote earlier. If anything, the second Ring comes in Ch.20 while the second Crest comes in Ch.22, so Erk is more likely to promote earlier than Sain is. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume they both promote at the beginning of Ch.23, right after you get Sain's Crest. Let's look at their performance in this chapter. I'll preface this by saying that Erk auto-wins for not being confined to the small grassy area in the northeast. Sain's move lead is completely negated, and this happens again to a lesser extent in chapters like PFoD (specifically Jerme), NoF, and defend maps like Unfulfilled Heart and Sands of Time. 20/1 Erk Thunder: 21.6 Atk, 111.2 Hit, 16.5 AS, 11.8 crit -- 33.4 HP, 8.8 Def, 14.6 Res, 41.7 avo 20/1 Sain Iron Axe: 28.4 Atk, 103.3 Hit, 14.6 AS, 5.8 crit -- 36.2 HP, 11.8 Def, 4.8 Res, 39.8 avo Steel Lance: 30.4 Atk, 98.3 Hit, 11.6 AS -- 33.8 avo Javelin: 26.4 Atk, 93.3 Hit, 13.6 AS Erk is by far your best offensive unit this chapter, as he can go anywhere and is more powerful than any of your fliers or unpromoted magic users. Erk ORKO's everybody but Paul and Jasmine and may fail on a monk or shaman who is specifically blessed in the Res department. Sain also fails to ORKO the bosses, as well as most wyverns and some knights, who are pretty much the only enemies he gets to see: he doesn't reach most of the action. Wyverns, the most dangerous physical enemy, 3RKO Erk at ~37% real hit and 4RKO Sain at ~20% real hit, assuming he has WTA. Mages are somewhere in the vicinity of 17RKO'ing Erk (lol) but 3RKO Sain at 62% real hit. Erk definitely wins, since he doesn't need to take counters from physical units, and also heals your other characters for about 24 HP in a chapter where Prissy has a hard time reaching them. This landslide victory should allow him to establish a small but maintainable level lead over Sain, especially since he performs better in Genesis as well (firing over walls once Kishuna leaves, healing, actual Res to take Bolting attacks, etc.) The trend continues. Erk consistently wins offense and always has 1-2 Range and staff utility while Sain slightly wins durability against physical units (while being destroyed in the magical durability department), sacrifices Atk, hit, and AS for any kind of 1-2 Range, and has 2 more move. Erk wins. Sain > Karla Lies. Oh, and Sain > Erk, too. More Lies. Clearly, Erk > Sain. Edited March 1, 2010 by messy mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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