S Rank Tier List for FE7

[frat_tastic]

Merlinus still isn't tiered, and I don't think anyone ever came to a conclusion with that discussion, we started to discuss other topics in the middle of it.

Does anyone have any valid reasons that he shouldn't be considered a unit other than he can't die and doesn't show up on the list of units under the unit select screen? Because if those are the only reasons we're using for not considering him a unit, compared to all the reasons why he SHOULD be considered, then that's kind of lame.

[Florete]

Merlinus still isn't tiered, and I don't think anyone ever came to a conclusion with that discussion, we started to discuss other topics in the middle of it.

Does anyone have any valid reasons that he shouldn't be considered a unit other than he can't die and doesn't show up on the list of units under the unit select screen? Because if those are the only reasons we're using for not considering him a unit, compared to all the reasons why he SHOULD be considered, then that's kind of lame.

It's really up to personal opinion. Some think those are all the reasons you need. There's also the fact that everything he "does" is passive, and while we credit other units for things like that, it's never the main thing units are credited for, which supports the claim that he's more like a feature with a face than an actual character worth tiering.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

[...] then that's kind of lame.

Says you. Says I, Merlinus deserves a spot on the tier list as soon as we put the Arena there. They are both approximately as easy to tier relative to the combat units, so it should be no problem.

[frat_tastic]

If we credit units for having features that are passive, there's no reason that Merlinus shouldn't also be credited for any features he has that are also passive, regardless of whether or not its the "main" thing we're tiering him for.

The transporter class has the unique ability to allow us to send him excessive amounts of items. Without deploying Merlinus, we suddenly lose this ability. Merlinus's deployment has an effect on how we play. There isn't any way around that.

He also has a lot more going for him than a "feature with a face". For instance, stats. Supports. Battle Sprite. Class. Class abilities. Able to use "features" like terrain, shops, etc. His deployment is the only odd thing about him, and if we're going to classify him as not a unit for having special deployment, then I can say something like forced deployment us something special, as 90% of the cast is never forced deployed outside of their recruitment chapters, so those with this "special" deployment shouldn't be considered units as well.

I really don't see what the personal bias against tiering Merlins is. What do people have against it so much? It doesn't seem to be a big deal on the FE6 list. Is it because Merlinus is considered to suck there, but might be considered good here? Do people just dislike Merlinus intensely and don't want to see him high up the list? The "not a unit" argument has so many holes and ways around it that I really don't know how we're still operating on it.

EDIT: Int, then we should take the Serra, Priscilla and Ninils off the list as well, since they aren't combat units, and have different class functions than the overwhelming majority of the cast. Merlinus and the Arena have nothing in common other than they help us S-Rank, which every other character in the game also has.

Edited March 31, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Interceptor]

I have a great idea, so take a look and tell me how you feel about it.

I think that you should keep making the same argument about Merlinus, repeatedly, using slightly different words every time. I'll do the same thing on my end. After we get CATS to say "indeed" a dozen times (should take roughly 72 hours, less on a weekend), let's change the subject to something else. In this way, we'll still have an endless cycle of opinionated stalemates due to irreconcilable philosophical differences, but at least the stinking corpse of the dead horse will occasionally be replaced with a fresher one.

[-Cynthia-]

Merlinus is more a unit in FE6 because he takes up a unit slot, can move, and does convoy actions even when not fielded.

I think a lot of of the problem would be crediting FE7 Merlinus for convoy purposes, when Eirika/Ephraim, Marth, the shopkeepers in 9/10 etc. do not receive credit for it, since they can be convoys without being fielded (well I guess we can't really know with the Lords).

Edited March 31, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[chrysalid]

It seems pretty obvious that the dividing line between unit and not-unit is arbitrary and needs to be set axiomatically as a basic parameter at the start of the discussion instead of making it adjunct to the discussion of a particular tiering candidate. Neither Hector or Merlinus are made of unitrons.

[frat_tastic]

I don't see any problem with giving Marth, Eirika or Ephraim credit for convoy functions, as they are a part of the Lord class in their respective games. In FE9/10, Muston and his gang are clearly not units, merely characters, so there is no unit who functions as a convoy, thus no one to give credit to, so the issue doesn't arise there.

Also, just to clarify, Merlinus not being able to move has nothing to do with whether or not he's a unit. His unpromoted class has 0 move, so he can't. It's no different than Serra having 5 move. It's just how their classes are built.

Edited March 31, 2010 by frat_tastic

[CATS]

Seems to me that if you credit Merlinus for something here, and credit FE6 Merlinus for allowing to withdraw items mid-battle, that it would make sense to similarly credit Marth/Ephraim/etc for letting you access the convoy mid-battle. Whether people would be willing to do that or not is an entirely different question; I'd say probably not.

[Interceptor]

EDIT: Int, then we should take the Serra, Priscilla and Ninils off the list as well, since they aren't combat units, and have different class functions than the overwhelming majority of the cast. Merlinus and the Arena have nothing in common other than they help us S-Rank, which every other character in the game also has.

I think you'll find that countering my absurd suggestion with one of your own is fighting a water fountain with a garden hose. Not only is it pointless, but it's actually counter-productive, since I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if a Dancer fell off a tier list. By the way -- make sure you're sitting down for this as it might blow your mind -- Serra and Priscilla are both combatants.

I don't see any problem with giving Marth, Eirika or Ephraim credit for convoy functions, as they are a part of the Lord class in their respective games. In FE9/10, Muston and his gang are clearly not units, merely characters, so there is no unit who functions as a convoy, thus no one to give credit to, so the issue doesn't arise there.

This is obviously untrue, as Aimee is a unit in 1-3, all of them show up in a 3-Endgame cutscene, and she takes care of one of the Part 4 convoys.

Also, just to clarify, Merlinus not being able to move has nothing to do with whether or not he's a unit. His unpromoted class has 0 move, so he can't. It's no different than Serra having 5 move. It's just how their classes are built.

Just to clarify, Arena lacking stats and being unable to move has nothing to do with whether or not it's a unit. It just has 0 in all relevant statistics, and while it doesn't have enough time to build a support with Village, it does give +10 avoid to units that sit on it.

[Florete]

Honestly, Interceptor said it all. You aren't getting anywhere by repeating the same stuff about why you believe Merlinus is a unit with tiering. As stated, it's all a matter of opinion, and I believe he isn't worth it.

Do people just dislike Merlinus intensely and don't want to see him high up the list?

Christ, why does shit like this keep coming up? It's like you guys think that whenever we don't want to credit someone for something it's because we hate their guts. I don't think Priscilla should be credited for recruiting Raven.

[Narga_Rocks]

Christ, why does shit like this keep coming up? It's like you guys think that whenever we don't want to credit someone for something it's because we hate their guts. I don't think Priscilla should be credited for recruiting Raven.

In case people aren't aware of this (must not be paying attention), Priscilla is only one of RF's favourite FE characters of all time. And she's had numerous avatars with Priscilla (including the current one in her profile).

in other words: when we think something doesn't belong on a tier list (either crediting units for silly things or this Merlinus stuff), it has nothing to do with us hating units and wanting to drive them down and everything to do with a philosophical belief that certain things shouldn't be relevant for a tier list. If certain characters people adore just happen to be hurt by this, it isn't because we hate those characters.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

Do people just dislike Merlinus intensely and don't want to see him high up the list?

I dislike Heath to the point that I go out of my way to kill him most of the time when I play FE7 for fun. Does that mean that he deserves a spot below Nino?

Shire, I don't know if you realize this but it's a lot harder to tier Merlinus than it is for anyone else. Ninils is probably the closest you'll get in the "hard to tier" but they actually do something towards the ranks (help both Exp, Tactics and I would consider arguing Combat if you really wanted to get technical and stupid about it). Last I checked, Merlinus isn't a positive or negative factor to the ranks.

Also, you mentioned battle sprite? How come I don't see it when someone attacks Merlinus but I see Ninian/Serra/Priscilla when they get attacked?

[Florete]

In case people aren't aware of this (must not be paying attention), Priscilla is only one of RF's favourite FE characters of all time. And she's had numerous avatars with Priscilla (including the current one in her profile).

Minor correction: The favorite.

Also, you mentioned battle sprite? How come I don't see it when someone attacks Merlinus but I see Ninian/Serra/Priscilla when they get attacked?

You see it when he promotes. That's all. Not sure if this counts as a "battle" sprite (seeing as it is never in battle), but I assume this is what he meant.

[Life]

You see it when he promotes. That's all. Not sure if this counts as a "battle" sprite (seeing as it is never in battle), but I assume this is what he meant.

I know that. But I don't see it during battle. And that's my point. Merlinus =/= Ninian/Serra/Priscilla in the non-combat sense.

[frat_tastic]

A couple things.

Aimee in Radiant Dawn isn't a player controlled unit, so we obviously won't be tiereing her. We don't tier any allied units, as far as I know anyway, so she obviously falls under this category. Jorge, Daniel and Muston all appearing in a cutscene also means nothing, as they never appear on a chapter map.

And Life, I'm aware that the idea of tiering Merlinus seems more daunting than it does other characters. Frankly, I'm not concerned with how difficult it is to tier something. If they, as a unit, contribute or detract from the ranks, then they should be tiered. While you may not think that Merlinus is a positive or negative factor when it comes to ranks, I see it differently. For instance, I see him allowing us to easily buy large amounts of items as beneficial to the funds rank, and occasionally to the combat rank since we can grab tons of silver/killer weapons and kill things easier. Conversely, I see him as a negative to the tactics rank, and again to the combat rank, since he can't fight and can draw enemies to him since he can't counterattack, which can be detrimental in some chapters where you have to rout all enemies.

I really don't think it's all that different than crediting other units for things that their classes allow them to do outside of a combat role. Healing, flying, refreshing, whatever. It all fits under the same umbrella to me.

EDIT: Also yes, I was talking about the brief moment we see Merlinus's battle sprites when he promotes.

Edited March 31, 2010 by frat_tastic

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

If I can remember, having Merlinus "killed" does not affect your survival rank and he can just be re-deployed the next chapter. If you bother to get him promoted so he has mobility he can be used as a decoy.

[K3Nyy]

I dislike Heath to the point that I go out of my way to kill him most of the time when I play FE7 for fun. Does that mean that he deserves a spot below Nino?

Shire, I don't know if you realize this but it's a lot harder to tier Merlinus than it is for anyone else. Ninils is probably the closest you'll get in the "hard to tier" but they actually do something towards the ranks (help both Exp, Tactics and I would consider arguing Combat if you really wanted to get technical and stupid about it). Last I checked, Merlinus isn't a positive or negative factor to the ranks.

Also, you mentioned battle sprite? How come I don't see it when someone attacks Merlinus but I see Ninian/Serra/Priscilla when they get attacked?

Merlinus does contribute the ranks even besides the funds rank, despite how minor it is.

I don't understand how one can not view Merlinus as a unit. The game defines Merlinus as a one of your units. He has a name, sprite, class, and is controlled by the player. Just because he doesn't move for 2/3 of the game, it doesn't change the fact that he is a unit. Different classes have different abilities and characteristics, Merlinus having 0 move is just a characteristic of his class.

He is even recognized by the game as a unit as the game denotes your characters as blue units. He's in the support room (or whatever you guys call it) when you check it. He's a target for your enemies. He can be issued commands similarly to the trade function. Why is he being denied a unit?

Also, I don't quite understand how you can say forests, arenas, etc. can be tiered. They aren't units because they don't have a name, portrait, class, stats, etc. Even if you argue otherwise, these tiles aren't your units because the game defines your units as the "blue units".

To not tier Merlinus because it's a hassle and too much trouble is one thing, but to say he isn't a unit is another. He IS a unit, no matter how you look at it. However, to make this list as objective as possible, one should tier Merlinus for the sake of a complete list. Even if everyone here drops this issue, sooner or later, someone will make an argument for Merlinus because there is sufficient enough proof for him to be on the list.

[Mekkah]

I have a great idea, so take a look and tell me how you feel about it.

I think that you should keep making the same argument about Merlinus, repeatedly, using slightly different words every time. I'll do the same thing on my end. After we get CATS to say "indeed" a dozen times (should take roughly 72 hours, less on a weekend), let's change the subject to something else. In this way, we'll still have an endless cycle of opinionated stalemates due to irreconcilable philosophical differences, but at least the stinking corpse of the dead horse will occasionally be replaced with a fresher one.

Great idea, how did we not come up with it before?

I don't even get anymore why people want him off the list so badly. Is it so hard to ignore the fact he's there if you're against him being there, and instead focus on something like Fiora vs Canas?

[Meteor]

Different classes have different abilities and characteristics, Merlinus having 0 move is just a characteristic of his class.

Merlinus also lacks many basic functions of everything else considered a class. He cannot trade, rescue, or use items. He also can't die, and doesn't take up a deployment slot. Before he can move, you can't even select him.

I personally don't really care whether or not he's tiered, but the decision isn't a clear as you think.

[Interceptor]

Aimee in Radiant Dawn isn't a player controlled unit, so we obviously won't be tiereing her.

What are you talking about? You can Direct Aimee anywhere you want her to go, even on Hard Mode she's good for two hits. Considering that there's no penalty for her death, and the BEXP award for an escape is lol-worthy, she's even part of efficient clears. Your complaint is rejected.

By the way, you never responded to my idea. I got the same reply from you, that I would have received if I posed the same question to a burlap sack full of doorknobs. Do you just ignore everything that's devastating to your case?

I don't understand how one can not view Merlinus as a unit.

Or in other words, you haven't been reading this thread -- or the last one -- at all, since the reasoning behind considering Merlinus a ULE rather than a unit is well-established. Unless you HAVE read the reasons, and not only think that they are without merit, but that the people who argue it have completely taken leave of their senses, because you are utterly incapable of even seeing where they are coming from even if you disagree.

I'll let you pick which one applies, I wouldn't want to assume.

Great idea, how did we not come up with it before?

Well, I am pretty amazing, it's true.

I don't even get anymore why people want Arena off the list so badly. Is it so hard to ignore the fact it's there if you're against Arena being there, and instead focus on something like Fiora vs Canas?

See what I did there, with a touch of skillful pronoun replacement? What's the problem, Rolf?

[K3Nyy]

Merlinus also lacks many basic functions of everything else considered a class. He cannot trade, rescue, or use items. He also can't die, and doesn't take up a deployment slot. Before he can move, you can't even select him.

I personally don't really care whether or not he's tiered, but the decision isn't a clear as you think.

Can't one consider that characteristics of his class? He has other characteristics such as give and take command. He can't rescue but iirc, he has 0 Aid and 25 con, which is a characteristic of his class. Does anyone disregard Nino as a unit because she can't rescue (correct me if I'm wrong.) Merlinus can also die, he just comes back chapter. The fact that he can die supports that he is a unit, doesn't it? Not being able to move is characteristic of his class. What about when he does move? I don't think that argument is consistent. There is still a plethora of similarities between him and any other classes.

Is it me only that thinks this game defines Merlinus as a unit? He's a blue unit on the screen, therefore he is a unit under your command, therefore a unit? He is recognized by the game as a unit, and that's all we need to know, is it not?

[CATS]

Is it me only that thinks this game defines Merlinus as a unit? He's a blue unit on the screen, therefore he is a unit under your command, therefore a unit? He is recognized by the game as a unit, and that's all we need to know, is it not?

It's not just you. I would probably call him a unit too. But Interceptor's point (that this is pretty much an irreconcilable difference in philosophies), while redundant and old by now, is also valid.

Edited March 31, 2010 by CATS

[K3Nyy]

Or in other words, you haven't been reading this thread -- or the last one -- at all, since the reasoning behind considering Merlinus a ULE rather than a unit is well-established. Unless you HAVE read the reasons, and not only think that they are without merit, but that the people who argue it have completely taken leave of their senses, because you are utterly incapable of even seeing where they are coming from even if you disagree.

I'll let you pick which one applies, I wouldn't want to assume.

I have actually read this thread and all of last thread in my spare time. I saw your reasoning and think the logic's off.

You shouldn't say that others lack the sense of logic because they disagree with you, because from where I'm standing you do quite the same thing.

[Life]

Can't one consider that characteristics of his class? He has other characteristics such as give and take command. He can't rescue but iirc, he has 0 Aid and 25 con, which is a characteristic of his class. Does anyone disregard Nino as a unit because she can't rescue (correct me if I'm wrong.) Merlinus can also die, he just comes back chapter. The fact that he can die supports that he is a unit, doesn't it? Not being able to move is characteristic of his class. What about when he does move? I don't think that argument is consistent. There is still a plethora of similarities between him and any other classes.

But Merlinus doesn't follow conventional Fire Emblem rules.

1. He doesn't die. How many other units in Fire Emblem (from 1 to 9 and FEDS) come back in the next map, even if they die? FE10 is a different case because it's story line based (fighting your own units).

2. He doesn't level up by gaining Exp. He just levels up once a map. How many other units in Fire Emblem do that? Here's a hint. It's starts with a Z and rhymes with Nero.

3. He has no commands other than Wait. How many other units do that?

If I see good logic for why Merlinus should be considered a proper unit, I'll back it. But right now, all I'm seeing is "Convey has a face, a name and certain stats. Therefore, he's a unit". And I'm not buying that logic because stats don't make a unit. Commands do. Last I checked, we rank units on how well they utilized their commands (I feel a giant Nino shitstorm coming again), not for how well they exist.