FireRed/LeafGreen ingame tier list

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Also, why is Mewtwo so high when he contributes so little to the game's progress? All he does is help with the sevii islands.

He doesnt even help with that since you cant even get him until AFTER you beat the Sevii Island quest

Edited April 15, 2010 by The Divine Swordmaster

[-Cynthia-]

Starmie has a better movepool than most water types, plus good Speed and Sp Atk.

Gyarados is no substitute for Starmie. Starmie has actully decent Sp Atk, Gyrarados dosnt which means its STAB sucks and Bite is even worse.

A Surf/Tbolt/Ice Beam/Psychic Starmie hits every Pokemon in the Elite 4 except Jynx and Alakazam for super effective damage.

I will agree that 6 tiers between Onix and Geodude seems a but off, especially since Geodude won't even get to Golem under the rules. What actually makes Geodude so good anyway? It's good against Surge, that's about it.

Edited April 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

He doesnt even help with that since you cant even get him until AFTER you beat the Sevii Island quest

Surely, under the rules of this list (the one about post-game stuff), that makes him the worst pokemon in the game.

Gyarados is no substitute for Starmie. Starmie has actully decent Sp Atk, Gyrarados dosnt which means its STAB sucks and Bite is even worse.

A Surf/Tbolt/Ice Beam/Psychic Starmie hits every Pokemon in the Elite 4 except Jynx and Alakazam for super effective damage.

I can understand the movepool bit, but whilst Gyarados has less special attack, anything super effective is going to deal quite a bit of damage.

Besides, being uber against the last 1/3 of the game shouldn't > Helping out 3/3 of the game.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure how Gyarados has that much availability over Starmie. The only difference I see is that you can catch Magikarp with the Old Rod instead of needing the better Rods (which you can get pretty shortly afterwards anyway).

I guess you can pay for the Magikarp right near Mt. Moon, but then there's it's exorbitant price + the pain of leveling it (it can't kill anything by itself and there's 15 levels to go = ugh). Contrast that with getting Starmie, which is just fishing right south of Pallet and slapping a Water Stone on it.

[Colonel M]

Trust me, using a Special Attack Gyarados is using a Mentally Special Gyarados. Starmie's movepool, IMO, overrides Gyarados. The problem is if this assumes that we're spending time at the slots to get said TMs.

[Dark Sage]

Much as I like Gyarados, he's just not stellar ingame. He's not as bad as people say he is imho, but he still should stay where he is.

Regarding Farfetch'd, it has decent attack and speed but has no defense and a good list of weaknesses. It doesn't even have good gym performance except against MAYBE Erika.

And I'd love to know why Flareon is above Vaporeon and Jolteon. He doesn't seem to have the edge on them on anything.

[riariadne]

I still have a major problem with Moltres's spot. This is its starting moveset:

Flamethrower

Endure

Fire Spin

Agility

And he starts at lv 50. Please tell me why he's so low and Mewtwo who is available for about 2% of the game is in High tier. Please.

[Dark Sage]

I think it has to do with typing. But in a real ingame tier list, Mewtwo and Moltres shouldn't even be there.

[Dat Nick]

In order:

I forgot about the Sevii Islands existing and never bothered to change it.

What outdated tier list are you guys looking at? Mewtwo should be somewhere around Mid.

How can Moltres help against the Elite Four at all? Gets smoked by Lorelei, does okay against Bruno I guess, doesnt do anything special against Agatha, and gets smoked by Lance. Maybe not godawful, but sure as hell not much of an improvement.

Availability isn't everything, Starmie's battle performance is so much better than Gyarados's it's not funny. There's an actual special stat (and it can use the surprise Thunderbolt too, and Recover, neither of which Gyarados has access to). The suck period as karp karp magi karp karp karp karp and then being worse than Starmie anyway more than overrides the availability.

I'd REALLY like to know what outdated tier list you're looking at, Vaporeon is two tiers up on the other eeveeloutions.

Maybe Geodude shouldn't be that much higher. But definitely higher. It actually has an ATK stat.

[Colonel M]

Availability isn't everything, Starmie's battle performance is so much better than Gyarados's it's not funny. There's an actual special stat (and it can use the surprise Thunderbolt too, and Recover, neither of which Gyarados has access to)

Gyarados

Notice that under the TM list it can use Thunderbolt.

Please do your research before making vague statements. Thank you.

How can Moltres help against the Elite Four at all? Gets smoked by Lorelei

He actually does a little better against Lorelei round 2, being able to take down Piloswine and Jynx. Round 1 it can hit Jynx. I wouldn't be too surprised if Cloyster dies to Flamethrower. It could survive, perhaps. 50 base HP | 45 SpD is pretty shitty.

doesnt do anything special against Agatha

Not exactly, but it isn't a complete negative here either. No one on her team has an actual weakness against Moltres, so that's already a good plus.

Oh yes, Moltres is probably your best Pokemon in Bruno Round 2. 2 Steelixs and 3 Fighting-types. Do the math.

EDIT: Wait...

Est:

Onix

Farfetch'd

Ditto

Hitmontop:

Moltres

Porygon

Missingno:

Mew

What is this shit?

Edited April 26, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Notice that under the TM list it can use Thunderbolt.

Please do your research before making vague statements. Thank you.

Okay, he can use it. Who gives a fuck? At least in Starmie's hands it MIGHT be worth the grinding since it has an existing special stat (giving gyarados a special with no STAB is asking for a tink)

What is this shit?

dunno

I'll stick it somewhere in low for now.

[Deliriyum]

I'm gonna interject here and ask a question. I'm playing this game. I just got through the seafoam island and got articuno, Does this sound like a decent team?

Venusaur(37)

Kadabra(42)

Snorlax(34)

Pidgeot(38)

Lapras(27)

Articuno(50)

And with these pokemon at similar levels but not part of my team.

Dugtrio(33)

Gloom(28)

Primeape(30)

Eevee(starting level)

I should be looking for a fire type correct? What is a very good team I should work towards?

[Dat Nick]

I'm gonna be honest. I've never actually played the islands, but the general consensus is that fire types are great, there. If you skipped Moltres, it might not be a terribad idea to evolve Eevee into Flareon and powerlevel it a bit.

[Colonel M]

I think Clefairy should move up a bit. It's like a slightly worse Nidoking in the point that it's practically a TM whore. It can even learn Softboiled for recovery hax. I don't think it should be in Bottom, anyway.

[Dat Nick]

It loses points for being reliant on them. Nidoking can fuck shit up without getting the first moonstone and without getting TMs.

but whatever. It's better than failing no matter what you do with them, i.e bugs

[Colonel M]

It loses points for being reliant on them. Nidoking can fuck shit up without getting the first moonstone and without getting TMs.

but whatever. It's better than failing no matter what you do with them, i.e bugs

Yeah, I wasn't going to don hype Clefairy. I understand being reliant on them sucks. The only one that has literally 0 competition was Softboiled anyway, but it makes Clefable an out-of-battle cleric. Over bugs is sufficient.

I'd also say that Caterpie > Weedle. We went over this slightly back with HG / SS, but Caterpie has the powders, which means it's utility in a sense after it learns Sleep Powder. It has a better chance of staying around longer than Beedrill, which really doesn't gain an upper hand on anything IMO. The only thing I can remotely think of is having TwinNeedle for Misty's Starmie, granted if it doesn't get destroyed by it first. I'd still consider the Powders being useful in most aspects > that though, even though they both are going to be shortlived (probably won't see much action after S.S. Anne, since both are practically fried by Lt. Surge to most extents anyway).

EDIT: Nidoking still wants / maybe even needs TMs. Relying on Double Kick / Thrash isn't the greatest. It desperately wants Dig just for a STAB or Earthquake since Earth Power comes rather late (Level 43? Ouch).

Edited April 26, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Are powders even going to help Butterfree? If the durability and speed phail enough to the point where it gets OHKOd by everything before it can then the answer would be no.

EDIT: Nidoking still wants / maybe even needs TMs. Relying on Double Kick / Thrash isn't the greatest. It desperately wants Dig just for a STAB or Earthquake since Earth Power comes rather late (Level 43? Ouch).

That's why you teach it Horn Attack before giving it the stone. It's not super but its a fuck of a lot better than Double Kick.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

Are powders even going to help Butterfree? If the durability and speed phail enough to the point where it gets OHKOd by everything before it can then the answer would be no.

Butterfree is a tad slower (70 vs. 75) than Beedrill anyway, and Butterfree's durability should not be that far behind from most of your starters. Giving you an idea here, Butterfree has 50 | 60 | 80 for durability. Squirtle has 44 | 65 | 64. It's losing. Then we hit Wartortle. 59 | 80 | 80. It finally beats Butterfree in physical, but it's not exactly crushing it either. That's probably the most durable starter too. Charmeleon is looking at 58 | 58 | 65. It just barely beats Butterfree in physical durability (and it's more or less due to HP). Keep in mind that 97.5% Sleep Powder is also great for catching some earlier Pokemon. Beedrill has it worse than Butterfree to some extents. 65 | 40 | 80. Confusion is also more consistent than Fury Attack as well, so the only time Beedrill wins is once its hit Level 20. Then it's TwinNeedle vs. Sleep Powder, which may I add Butterfree learns 5 levels earlier.

That's why you teach it Horn Attack before giving it the stone. It's not super but its a fuck of a lot better than Double Kick.

Actually, Horn Attack has 5 BP more than Double Kick. Not to mention Double Kick hits most of the common Normal-types for Super Effective damage, or even the troublesome Rock-types (though 16 Geodudes on up are kind of a problem for it due to STAB Magnitude).

Edited April 26, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Isn't one stronger attack>two pansy attacks, though?

[Colonel M]

Isn't one stronger attack>two pansy attacks, though?

It depends on how the damage counter rolls. It's rather difficult to explain the formula, but This is where it is.

For the tl;dr version, yes, the Double Kicks could roll a lower damage output than Horn Attack. Still, I'd use both anyway, and put Thrash over Horn Attack when it's possible.

[Zkirsche]

Earth Power comes rather late (Level 43? Ouch).

Earth power? I could've swarn Nidoking learns megahorn at level 43.

[Colonel M]

Earth power? I could've swarn Nidoking learns megahorn at level 43.

Ah yes. Earth Power is a Gen 4 Mov. I remember in Gen 4 it learns Megahorn much later, but yeah you're right.

[Zkirsche]

Thought so, he's one of my favourites, so this "earth power" confused me.

Speaking of Nidoran M, is charamander really better than him? Double Kicking Brock is nice, he's obviously better against Misty (fire vs water against poison/normal vs water, Nidoking by Surge possible? If so, ground vs electric. Erika is a win for charmelean, though, but being poison helps him a bit. Ground vs koga. Charmanda wins sabrina. Baline is obvious, and I think both lose to Giovanni's ground types. Then comes loreal for water/ice pwnage. Bruce should be tie, though Nidoking should win as IIRC they use rock types (can't remember if they do not). Ground vs Agatha. Fire vs dragon = balls.

Etcetera. Overall, they're around a similar amount of time, yet Charmander and his evos just aren't as good when it comes to the gyms + elite four.

Edited April 26, 2010 by The Syobon

[Florete]

I think both lose to Giovanni's ground types.

Charizard flies.

[riariadne]

Thought so, he's one of my favourites, so this "earth power" confused me.

Speaking of Nidoran M, is charamander really better than him? Double Kicking Brock is nice, he's obviously better against Misty (fire vs water against poison/normal vs water, Nidoking by Surge possible? If so, ground vs electric. Erika is a win for charmelean, though, but being poison helps him a bit. Ground vs koga. Charmanda wins sabrina. Baline is obvious, and I think both lose to Giovanni's ground types. Then comes loreal for water/ice pwnage. Bruce should be tie, though Nidoking should win as IIRC they use rock types (can't remember if they do not). Ground vs Agatha. Fire vs dragon = balls.

Etcetera. Overall, they're around a similar amount of time, yet Charmander and his evos just aren't as good when it comes to the gyms + elite four.

Charmeleom gets awesome stuff like STAB Flamethrower at lv 34 for a wtf 142 attack move. Now, I'm not quite sure, but that sounds pretty sweet to me. Also, he isn't super reliable on TMs unlike Nidoking and he doesn't have to use a valuable stone to evolve.

As for gyms: I don't think you can even GET Nidoran before Brock (It's on Route 3 IIRC, the one heading to Mt. Moon) and he probably is too low of a level by Misty. Don't think he'll be evolving to Nidoking by Lt. Surge either, and Charmander wins Eirika no contest at all. Sure, Nidoking's ground vs. Koga, but Nidoking, like, doesn't HAVE many ground type moves so it's rather moot. I agree that Charmander also wins vs. Sabrina and while Nido wins vs. Blaine, Charizard probably beats Giovanni. Lorelei also has Jynx which Charizard owns, and Lorlei owns Nidoking with EVERYTHING cuz he's part ground. Bruno's probably a tie (Charizard has resistance and can deal pretty good damage for the Fighting types, Nidoking wins vs. the 2 onix) Ground vs. Agatha is only good for... Arbok, since Golbat's flying and the other 3 have levitate, those making Earth type pretty useless there. Fire vs. dragon is pretty bad, true, but it's not like Earth's helping at all either since, again, he has 3 dudes who are totally immune. Gary is crazy for everyone so let's, like, not go there for now.

I can easily see Charmander>Nidoran.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Lightning