FireRed/LeafGreen ingame tier list

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Exactly so why is Zubat way above Pidgey? I honestly think Pidgey is too low.

[Dark Sage]

And "any pokemon"? You make it sound like I have Pikachu topping the list here. Pikachu doesn't need to outperform every single pokemon in the game to be above Jolteon, just Jolteon.

I know he's mid high, but he's two tiers above Jolteon, even though they perform similarally (I'm going to say that Static and Misty is equal to Jolteon's superior stats).

Note that earlier before Misty, while Pikachu is very nice against various trainers do to the large amount of Pidgeys they use (Youngsters and Lasses actually), he's deadweight against Brock.

[Dat Nick]

Note that earlier before Misty, while Pikachu is very nice against various trainers do to the large amount of Pidgeys they use (Youngsters and Lasses actually), he's deadweight against Brock.

so don't use him against Brock

this is pokemon types 101 here, I mean really

But here's another problem I have. Jolteon needs a TM to know Thunderbolt, and Thunderbolt is a TM compatible with all sorts of pokemon, mainly Staryu and Haunter. Jolteon needs it to have a decent thunder move, Pikachu doesn't, so this punches another gap in the Jolteon up argument.

WRT to the spatk lead...sorry, not convinced. Sure, I see a 40~ point lead...At level 100. 50 levels down the drain, I doubt it amounts to anything significant. Probably have a point about speed, but even that lead will be lessened.

[Dark Sage]

Give him the Shockwave TM. It never misses and gives him STAB. And anyway, you can get infinite Thunderbolt TMs from slots anyway, so he can still learn it. Another gap regarding Jolteon and Raichu closed.

Point is, Jolteon is similar enough to Raichu that he shouldn't be two tiers below. Sure he comes later, but they perform so similarily that why should they be far apart.

And finally you could say, oh Jolteon is deadweight against Giovanni. So don't use Jolteon against Giovanni.

[Don Draper]

Also agree with Zubat down. He starts off crappy, and stays that way for awhile until he finally evolves. Then Golbat has to rely on Wing Attack for the entire game, which isn't a bad attack but not an outstanding one. He definitely needs to go down a tier.

[Dat Nick]

Give him the Shockwave TM. It never misses and gives him STAB.

Shockwave also has 60 base power. 95 base power compared to 60 base power is huge. Even more so when STAB is involved.

And anyway, you can get infinite Thunderbolt TMs from slots anyway, so he can still learn it.

Fine, I did forget that, I thought you got Thunderbolt from Surge. I don't like slots as an argument, but you've got a boatload of funds and a half so I guess it evens out.

And finally you could say, oh Jolteon is deadweight against Giovanni. So don't use Jolteon against Giovanni.

Yes I could, your point being?

Also agree with Zubat down. He starts off crappy, and stays that way for awhile until he finally evolves. Then Golbat has to rely on Wing Attack for the entire game, which isn't a bad attack but not an outstanding one.

I'm fine with Zubat down a tier but he doesn't just have Wing Attack. Bite>Psychic gym, especially since Golbat is wtffast and Psychics have shitty def anyway so no STAB doesn't hurt him so much. Sure, it sucks if he gets hit, but...

[The Divine Swordmaster]

I'm fine with Zubat down a tier but he doesn't just have Wing Attack. Bite>Psychic gym, especially since Golbat is wtffast and Psychics have shitty def anyway so no STAB doesn't hurt him so much. Sure, it sucks if he gets hit, but...

They actually have good Sp.D namely Slowpoke and Hypno/Drowzee

Also Bellsprout > Oddish. Its faster and and has better Atk.

[Dark Sage]

Shockwave also has 60 base power. 95 base power compared to 60 base power is huge. Even more so when STAB is involved.

Fine, I did forget that, I thought you got Thunderbolt from Surge. I don't like slots as an argument, but you've got a boatload of funds and a half so I guess it evens out.

You do get a Thunderbolt from Lt. Surge (who's no Nick Fury by the way).

Yes I could, your point being?

But you didn't.

My point is you like to crow how Jolteon's gym performance sucks, yet you claim that Raichu's is good, even though they perform roughly the same.

Here, look at it this way:

Pikachu is great against Misty but is complete deadweight against Brock and Giovanni.

Jolteon is deadweight against Giovanni.

Misty should evenly cancel out the the suckage that is Pikachu vs Brock so they both he and Jolteon should have the same Gym and Elite 4 performance.

Look I know this is problably a weak argument, but every point you make against Jolteon, you also make against Raichu. At least tell me why he's two tiers above Jolteon.

[Dat Nick]

They actually have good Sp.D namely Slowpoke and Hypno/Drowzee

except i didn't say spdef, I said def

My point is you like to crow how Jolteon's gym performance sucks, yet you claim that Raichu's is good, even though they perform roughly the same.

Except they don't. Just Pikachu existing for Misty's gym is more than enough to say Pikachu has more high points than Jolteon. It's not as bad as I said it was, but Jolteon is still not exactly a good pokemon, as I didn't exactly miss a lot of his good gyms.

Misty should evenly cancel out the the suckage that is Pikachu vs Brock

That's exactly it. Pikachu's suckage vs Brock doesn't count against it at all because only an idiot would use Pikachu against Brock. Hell, not EVEN an idiot would use Pikachu against Brock. It only counts against Pikachu in the sense that Pikachu isn't good for a period of time. Similarly, Jolteon's not being punished for sucking against Giovanni, he's being punished for it in the sense that it's not a positive. So no, Misty vs Pikachu doesn't cancel out the suckage vs Brock because there's nothing to cancel out. Pikachu did not accumulate any negative utility when fighting Brock because he did not fight Brock. All it means is that he didn't do anything positive.

Look I know this is problably a weak argument, but every point you make against Jolteon, you also make against Raichu.

don't recall Jolteon being there for Cerulean

Look I know this is problably a weak argument, but every point you make against Jolteon, you also make against Raichu. At least tell me why he's two tiers above Jolteon.

oh, i was busy at the time. I was doing a lot of shit and i thought i edited my post to say I'll change the list when I'm free. I guess I got mixed up in what I was doing and didn't. my mistake

[Colonel M]

You do remember that Bite is running off of Golbat's shitty SpA right? Just wondering is all.

[dondon151]

Yeah, Golbat is on the losing end of an exchange against a Psychic type.

[Emeraldfox]

Also agree with Zubat down. He starts off crappy, and stays that way for awhile until he finally evolves. Then Golbat has to rely on Wing Attack for the entire game, which isn't a bad attack but not an outstanding one. He definitely needs to go down a tier.

What about Sludge Bomb?

[Dat Nick]

You do remember that Bite is running off of Golbat's shitty SpA right?

I keep forgetting about the Phys/Spec split not being until Gen 4...

[Don Draper]

What about Sludge Bomb?

That TM doesn't come until the Sevii Islands, at which point the game is done.

[Dat Nick]

Speaking of the phys/spec split not happening yet, Krabby's offense is balls in this game. And just about everything else is balls too. I don't remember how it is on defense, but shitty offense, being slow as shit, and coming later are good enough reasons to merit it down to low tier.

I also think I want Magikarp below the bugs. No shit the bugs suck, but get them to stage 3 and they're at least decent for some part of the game as a temp-filler or something. By the time you have access to Gyarados, it's late enough to be outclassed by more things, and getting Weedle/Caterpie to lvl 10 sucks a lot less than getting Magikarp to level 20.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Krabby has high Def

[Dat Nick]

That's not going to save it from Low tier. It has good def? so does Onix

[-Cynthia-]

Lt. Surge gives Shock Wave in FR/LG, Tbolt was back in R/B/Y

[Dark Sage]

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting. Replaying RBY and all.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Would Krabby's HM slave capabilities help it's positioning in any way?

[Dat Nick]

I don't really like HM slaving as an argument, but hell, Onix just can't do anything, not even HM slave. Krabby is like the Bidoofus of this game though which IS pretty trippy, but I don't think it's going to save him from Low.

Also, people want Flareon down and Jolteon>Flareon. I'm fine with this, but Vaporeon is really deserving of it's position imo;

<@bbladezzz> i think vaporeon does deserve to be notably higher than the other two

<@bbladezzz> because a; I can instant stone vaporeon and it'll still learn bite (flareon will too though, so...)

<@bbladezzz> and bite>psychics/ghosts

<@bbladezzz> nd b, aurora beam>dragons

<@bbladezzz> at worst, it's kicking the holy fuck out of jolteon

[Don Draper]

We're talking about three dragons in the entire game, two of which have terrible stats. Ice is nice against flying/grass/ground though I suppose.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

I don't really like HM slaving as an argument, but hell, Onix just can't do anything, not even HM slave. Krabby is like the Bidoofus of this game though which IS pretty trippy, but I don't think it's going to save him from Low.

I'm kinda indifferent towards Krabby, but I dont think its THAT bad

Also, people want Flareon down and Jolteon>Flareon. I'm fine with this, but Vaporeon is really deserving of it's position imo;

<@bbladezzz> i think vaporeon does deserve to be notably higher than the other two

<@bbladezzz> because a; I can instant stone vaporeon and it'll still learn bite (flareon will too though, so...)

<@bbladezzz> and bite>psychics/ghosts

<@bbladezzz> nd b, aurora beam>dragons

<@bbladezzz> at worst, it's kicking the holy fuck out of jolteon

I agree, IMO Water Pokemon are hands down the best type in-game for Kanto

And maybe Jolteon could move over Flareon? I mean we can teach Jolteon an electric attack (shock wave) as soon as we get it. Flareon doesnt learn a fire attack until 36 Fire Spin (which sucks). The only Fire TMs are Flamethrower and Fire Blast, which either is expensive or not even availiable when we get Flareon.

Team Rocket members usaully have Zubats/Golbats and thats right up Jolteon's niche, so it isnt totally useless and it does better against the Elite Four than Flareon. To be honest, I only see Flareon having bite going for it.

[Dat Nick]

I'm kinda indifferent towards Krabby, but I dont think its THAT bad

It IS that bad. It's a water-type Onix that you can't catch until later.

also i just said jolteon>flareon

Edited April 10, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Zkirsche]

Why is staryu so high? IIRC they arrive pretty late and when we can have better, higher levelled water types like gyarados and vaporeon right when we get him and even then they've had a good time beforehand (gyarados' bite vs sabrina). Even Starmie might find some trouble in Agatha.

Also, why is Mewtwo so high when he contributes so little to the game's progress? All he does is help with the sevii islands.

Doduo's position is also suspect, pretty bad availability too. I know it can use fly, but what makes it >>> meowth? meowth can use bite etcetera.

I don't really like HM slaving as an argument

Me too, half the pokemon in the game can HM slave, surf and strength can be used by almost any pokemon, cut and flash less so, but are still widely spread, fly can only be used by flying pokemon, but fly isn't technically necessary anyway, it just saves time. Imagine in FE there was someone who could double everything. Problem is, everyone else in that FE doubles everything too. Suddenly, doubling doesn't seem that valuable, and neither is the ability to HM slave.

Onix just can't do anything

Fine, I guess, but what can Geodude do that Onix can't that put's him 6 tiers above him?

Est:

Onix

Farfetch'd

Ditto

Hitmontop:

Moltres

Porygon

I've already talked aboute Onix. But why is farfetch'd so low? Never seemed that bad a pokemon.

Moltres > Mewtwo + Ditto. Moltres can help with the elite four. And ditto is almost completely useless.

Edited April 13, 2010 by The Syobon