Given our understanding of reality...

[Original Alear]

Given our understanding of reality and all the variables that exist, I think our best approximation of existence at this point (existence being something more complex than anything you can fathom) for any point in "existence" looks something like this.

Let Y be the most simple unit which we can imagine existence being made up of, multiplied by the number of those units in existence. Let X be any unit for measuring the rate of change of that unit.

Line XY is not a straight line. However its undulations are imperceptible to anything in "existence" as "existence" is made up of XY.

Also, the intersection of the X and Y axis may not be 0. It may be that XY is roughly equal to 0 (averages out to such). However, if X averages out to 0 we can still guarantee that Y is not equal to 0 at all possible points. If it does, Y never existed in the first place.

(Thank you Descartes, though every person in the world can teach that lesson to any other you taught it to me, and that is the most crucial point from which all else follows).

We cannot actually be sure that line XY goes on for infinity but we have no evidence to suggest otherwise at this time. If we ever do obtain such evidence, we have no reason yet to think it will not change the definition of X and Y.

Discuss?

[Le Communard]

Because God said so.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Le Communard

[Original Alear]

What felt like a long time ago, I would have argued differently.

Now I realize that we're saying roughly the same thing.

(copy and paste that for everything everyone on this board says forever)

[Le Communard]

What felt like a long time ago, I would have argued differently.

Now I realize that we're saying roughly the same thing.

(copy and paste that for everything everyone on this board says forever)

The quicker the Cynicism sets in the easier it'll all be. Just embrace it.

[Original Alear]

What do you mean? Cynicism also expresses this truth! It doesn't always allow you to access the happiness in the truth but you ALWAYS have this truth I'm talking about and you ALWAYS know you do. One articulation of cynicism is where you are disappointed because you think you know the best way for the world to go and no one else does.

This truth is accessible at different layers. Sometimes it makes you happy, sometimes it makes you sad. But I now know everything responds as though this truth was true "at some point". This truth can, and is, derived from every statement, every action, every instance of existence (though sometimes at a rate of change more slow than others).

I know I sound like I'm disagreeing with you, and I am, but again, the gap between our disagreement is actually smaller than you think! You might think, "oh, poor Sevvy, he might be right but not everyone is conscious of that all the time..." however the trick is to apply this often enough to keep things in a perspective where you can be happy. Events change and you need to apply the trick differently, but there it is.

I guess I should be cynical when I realize that Nazism is also an articulation of this truth, but right now the wide gap of possibility that cannot ever be pinned down is open to me. Ya, it might be pinned down someday, but there's no evidence that it will be. I'm sad to say that those on the cutting edge of science are probably a lot closer to pinning it down than I am and a few of those people might be really worried that they're actually going to pin it down. But I think my understanding of science is strong enough that I can now take it on faith.

I do realize that this motive I has, if applied rigorously enough by every human being, could cause the mass suicide of the human race. But if you apply it even more rigorously you WONT kill yourself, though then if you apply it rigorously again you will (ad nauseum). I think cynicism might be the word for when you realize your life isn't going to change much as a result of this realization. However, we all already know that too!

I guess you could say I've realized the lack of understanding every human being has enough that I can accept that we can all die tomorrow or all live tomorrow but in the long run we'll all be back again :), and we already have been back again, and we've already realized it and we haven't realized it yet.

Sometimes I'll see other human beings who seem to realize it less fully and be sad, sometimes I'll see other human beings who seem to realize it more fully and be sad, but sometimes I'll do both of those things and be happy because I already have been all the time.

There's no way to pin it down communard! You can make me sad about it or happy about it but it's still there, and it can be used to make me happy or sad whenever I want. The best part is you know everything I've tried to say to you already. Ya, it's true that when I just said "there's no way to pin it down communard!" I was taunting you, but then I realized again that you already got it. And if you don't get it, you still get it! The best part is that every single human being on this earth knew it all the time and they're always articulating it in some way, whether they're awake or asleep or dead or alive.

Another thing I've realized is that the dead already knew it and will know it again, and in between the molecules of their bodies know it.

A good way to handle this might be meditation, since then I won't have to feel this way all the time, but at the same time, why shouldn't I feel this way?

I know this truth doesn't make things any easier necessarily, but it also doesn't make things any harder either. You can tell because even though everyone knows it, some people have harder lives than others. However, just because some people have harder lives than others doesn't mean they are happier, though it could very well be that that way of life in general will make people more or less happy.

Communard, the thing is that realizing this truth allows me to cycle between unhappiness and happiness very rapidly (right now). If I cycle between unhappiness and happiness less quickly, what of it? Those are just generalized words for more specific moments we all experience (but none of us experience those specific moments perfectly).

Everything I say gets at the truth, everything I say doesn't do it justice.

There's a point when we just have to shut up, because we're tired of typing.

I wonder if I'm going to be locked in an insane asylum? I'm not worried about it, I just can't wait to see all the people in the insane asylum who know the same thing I do.

[lolDeath]

I fucking love this guy.

[Phoenix]

What understanding?

We use reasoning so we can have an acceptable establishment to rely on while we scurry around in what seems to be reality. The only thing we have is what we can comprehend. What's real or not doesn't matter, and what we can't comprehend, can't do us any good anyway. If we can't understand it, we can't understand it. The edge of the universe for example? Best left alone.

Also ... your long post is as confusing as it gets. Could you explain that a little better please? If not I'll have to chalk it up to being totally incomprehensible and leave it at that.

[El Rey León]

I hate topics that make my head hurt.

Ima watch cartoons.

[Mousefire]

I hate topics that make my head hurt.

Ima watch cartoons.

you're my hero

[Legault]

Either by existance you mean our essence of existance or something alike (ether, etc), or you're wrong and Y will always be constant becuase matter is not either created or destroyed. And because Y never changes, X is always 0, therefore leading to a mathematical error.

[BK-201]

We use reasoning so we can have an acceptable establishment to rely on while we scurry around in what seems to be reality. The only thing we have is what we can comprehend. What's real or not doesn't matter, and what we can't comprehend, can't do us any good anyway. If we can't understand it, we can't understand it. The edge of the universe for example? Best left alone.

I disagree with this for many reasons. In the early stages of our species, we were unable to comprehend how to generate electricity, build computers, and it seemed logically, that it couldn't be done, but with advancements we were able to do what seemed to be impossible. Advancements advances the limits of our reasoning, making it within our comprehension. If we leave everything as it is only going with our fundemental knowledge, then advancement will never be made. By pushing the bounds of our reasoning do we learn more. It may do us good in time, maybe not in an instance but maybe, eventually it will.

[Phoenix]

You disagree, because I said we should leave it alone?

I'm not talking about scientific advancement as a whole. I'm talking about the edges of the universe. Understanding that is going far beyond any of our lifetimes. Better to leave it and anything else beyond our technological reach alone until technology catches up to our interest in the subject. Personally I doubt it ever will regarding the edge of the universe, but that's just me.

Besides...

Seeking is not always the way to find.

~ Augustus William Hare and Julius Charles Hare

Edited April 21, 2010 by Phoenix

[prompto]

tl;dr

whaaaaat

[BK-201]

You disagree, because I said we should leave it alone?

I'm not talking about scientific advancement as a whole. I'm talking about the edges of the universe. Understanding that is going far beyond any of our lifetimes. Better to leave it and anything else beyond our technological reach alone until technology catches up to our interest in the subject.

@Bold, it takes many lifetimes that build upon each other to succeed at some things.

@Underline, technology moves with us, we must take action to move forward. Technology isn't something that walks on two legs. You have to move it.

[peener weener]

You disagree, because I said we should leave it alone?

I'm not talking about scientific advancement as a whole. I'm talking about the edges of the universe. Understanding that is going far beyond any of our lifetimes. Better to leave it and anything else beyond our technological reach alone until technology catches up to our interest in the subject. Personally I doubt it ever will regarding the edge of the universe, but that's just me.

Besides...

Seeking is not always the way to find.

~ Augustus William Hare and Julius Charles Hare

That's why we should start trying now. We will not see the result. Our children will not see the result. Our grandchildren will not see the result. Our grand-grandchldren will not see the result. Eventually, though, humanity will come up with an answer. It's something to strive for, for the future. Even though WE will be left unanswered, we should try, since there won't ever even be an answer if we don't. See where I'm going?

Edited April 21, 2010 by The Eye of the Tigrex

[Phoenix]

@Bold, it takes many lifetimes that build upon each other to succeed at some things.

@Underline, technology moves with us, we must take action to move forward. Technology isn't something that walks on two legs. You have to move it.

#1 You basically mean to say that we have strive to understand what we CAN'T understand until we can? I never said anything against that. What I mean by leaving it alone, is to not throw billions of dollars at finding out now when it may likely be more fully understood down the road. Leaving something alone doesn't mean erasing it from the minds of every scientist and researcher and never bringing it up again. It just means not focusing too heavily on it. Evolution's a good example of this.

#2 Technology and Wisdom grow on two separate trees. The wisdom tree is only watered enough to keep it alive, and the technology tree is watered frequently. Obviously there's a growth imbalance. Our technology far and away surpasses overall human wisdom right now. Technology isn't moving with us, it's leaving us behind.

@Tigrex

Read^^

Edited April 21, 2010 by Phoenix

[BK-201]

#1 You basically mean to say that we have strive to understand what we CAN'T understand until we can? I never said anything against that. What I mean by leaving it alone, is to not throw billions of dollars at finding out now when it may likely be more fully understood down the road. Leaving something alone doesn't mean erasing it from the minds of every scientist and researcher and never bringing it up again. It just means not focusing too heavily on it. Evolution's a good example of this.

#2 Technology and Wisdom grow on two separate trees. The wisdom tree is only watered enough to keep it alive, and the technology tree is watered frequently. Obviously there's a growth imbalance. Our technology far and away surpasses overall human wisdom right now. Technology isn't moving with us, it's leaving us behind.

1. Evolution? It actually has REAL importance, and not just in "Oh, look I know who my ancestors are," by observing fossil records of animals and changes, we can find out what happened and in what way animals coped. Then, we can prepare for the future. Also, billions of dollars today means much more than a loss of money, it also means that we open up new doors of knowledge, eventually these can be used and pay back those billions many times over, just look at the computer.

2. Technology has not surprassed us if we can keep advancing. It's just surprassed those who don't learn.

[Phoenix]

1. Evolution? It actually has REAL importance, and not just in "Oh, look I know who my ancestors are," by observing fossil records of animals and changes, we can find out what happened and in what way animals coped. Then, we can prepare for the future. Also, billions of dollars today means much more than a loss of money, it also means that we open up new doors of knowledge, eventually these can be used and pay back those billions many times over, just look at the computer.

2. Technology has not surprassed us if we can keep advancing. It's just surprassed those who don't learn.

Evolution of the human mind is the example. The theory of evolution on the other hand isn't the biggest aid in preparing for the future that I've seen. If you want to prepare for the future, look at what's going on in the world right now, and prepare accordingly.

Did it ever occur to anyone that we might be opening the wrong doors? Technology isn't a straight line.

Like I said, technology has far and away surpassed our wisdom. Just because you can make something, and use it, and even improve it, doesn't mean you're wise enough to use it properly. Put a program in a computer that makes a machine build something and now it has the power of technology. The power to make something, maybe even improve it. But it has no wisdom. No way of knowing if what it's making is actually helping humanity or destroying it. We're the same way. Too much tech, not enough wisdom.

[BK-201]

Evolution of the human mind is the example. The theory of evolution on the other hand isn't the biggest aid in preparing for the future that I've seen. If you want to prepare for the future, look at what's going on in the world right now, and prepare accordingly.

Did it ever occur to anyone that we might be opening the wrong doors? Technology isn't a straight line.

Like I said, technology has far and away surpassed our wisdom. Just because you can make something, and use it, and even improve it, doesn't mean you're wise enough to use it properly. Put a program in a computer that makes a machine build something and now it has the power of technology. The power to make something, maybe even improve it. But it has no wisdom. No way of knowing if what it's making is actually helping humanity or destroying it. We're the same way. Too much tech, not enough wisdom.

Not everything is as simple as it is on paper. Say a meteor were to hit the Earth. Would we know it by looking at the ground?

How do you know which door is right and wrong, what's the wrong door today may be the right one tomorrow.

If your expectation is that humans must always be able to discern right from wrong, then you might as well stop technology. No matter how wise we are, advancement at this point will harm somthing most likely, emissions, etc.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I was going to make a hilarious post where I responded in a longwinded joking manner to this topic, however given recent events I will now just state that Phoenix should lrn2science. And lrn2think.

[peener weener]

#1 You basically mean to say that we have strive to understand what we CAN'T understand until we can? I never said anything against that. What I mean by leaving it alone, is to not throw billions of dollars at finding out now when it may likely be more fully understood down the road. Leaving something alone doesn't mean erasing it from the minds of every scientist and researcher and never bringing it up again. It just means not focusing too heavily on it. Evolution's a good example of this.

I saw that coming. And we're never reaching the edge of the universe, ever. Even if we reach the speed of light (which is impossible, anyway), we would have to keep moving for millions and millions and millions of years. We can only hypothesize.

[Phoenix]

Not everything is as simple as it is on paper. Say a meteor were to hit the Earth. Would we know it by looking at the ground?

How do you know which door is right and wrong, what's the wrong door today may be the right one tomorrow.

If your expectation is that humans must always be able to discern right from wrong, then you might as well stop technology. No matter how wise we are, advancement at this point will harm somthing most likely, emissions, etc.

@Meteor bit: That's not what I meant, and I'm a little shocked that that's what you thought I meant. Never mind what I said though, this isn't even where I wanted this thing to go anyway.

The only reason I can think of for finding the edge of the universe is to determine how long our species can exist within the confines of this universe. Is there actually an edge? Is the edge getting smaller? Are the borders of the universe expanding? That would be extremely long term useful information, but there's no way to learn anything about that right now so our best course of action is to focus on the Earth, not on the stars. If something goes wrong in our neighborhood, we wouldn't be able to save anyone or anything anyway. Just because humanity shifts its primary focus doesn't mean there won't always be a few thousand scientists and researchers looking up at the stars.

Expectation? I don't expect anything from humans other than human nature. Our very existence is harming something at this point, so it's not about making everything perfect. That's beyond doing now. We've got to do what we can with what we have and know. Knowing right from wrong would only help us get our priorities straight. All I'm saying, is that humanity as a whole, isn't responsible with what it has. That's it. Can we leave it at that?

I was going to make a hilarious post where I responded in a longwinded joking manner to this topic, however given recent events I will now just state that Phoenix should lrn2science. And lrn2think.

But your posts aren't even funny. You're too lazy to even put in a little effort to insult people. You're a lazy bastard

I saw that coming. And we're never reaching the edge of the universe, ever. Even if we reach the speed of light (which is impossible, anyway), we would have to keep moving for millions and millions and millions of years. We can only hypothesize.

Exactly. So why don't we focus on what we can reach out and grasp, like the Earth for example. It's right here. We're standing on it. Keeping this rock and our species intact should be our highest priority.

[Defeatist Elitist]

@Meteor bit: That's not what I meant, and I'm a little shocked that that's what you thought I meant. Never mind what I said though, this isn't even where I wanted this thing to go anyway.

The only reason I can think of for finding the edge of the universe is to determine how long our species can exist within the confines of this universe. Is there actually an edge? Is the edge getting smaller? Are the borders of the universe expanding? That would be extremely long term useful information, but there's no way to learn anything about that right now so our best course of action is to focus on the Earth, not on the stars. If something goes wrong in our neighborhood, we wouldn't be able to save anyone or anything anyway. Just because humanity shifts its primary focus doesn't mean there won't always be a few thousand scientists and researchers looking up at the stars.

Expectation? I don't expect anything from humans other than human nature. Our very existence is harming something at this point, so it's not about making everything perfect. That's beyond doing now. We've got to do what we can with what we have and know. Knowing right from wrong would only help us get our priorities straight. All I'm saying, is that humanity as a whole, isn't responsible with what it has. That's it. Can we leave it at that?

But your posts aren't even funny. You're too lazy to even put in a little effort to insult people. You're a lazy bastard

Exactly. So why don't we focus on what we can reach out and grasp, like the Earth for example. It's right here. We're standing on it. Keeping this rock and our species intact should be our highest priority.

So when I said lrn2Science, I meant lrn2Science, not just keep on talking.

I mean, do you understand what scientists do? Do you understand how science is done? I really don't think you do. Our survival and continued advancement is ALREADY a number one priority for Science, but it's not like you can or should just say "let's put all our SCIENCE into THIS". That is not how Science works. And why shouldn't we look at the stars? We certainly could learn a lot about them!

Besides, isn't discovery for discovery's sake good enough? Do you even need a further justification?

[Phoenix]

So when I said lrn2Science, I meant lrn2Science, not just keep on talking.

I mean, do you understand what scientists do? Do you understand how science is done? I really don't think you do. Our survival and continued advancement is ALREADY a number one priority for Science, but it's not like you can or should just say "let's put all our SCIENCE into THIS". That is not how Science works. And why shouldn't we look at the stars? We certainly could learn a lot about them!

Besides, isn't discovery for discovery's sake good enough? Do you even need a further justification?

Never said a word, pal

Intended misinterpretations aside, you're just making wild assumptions about my posts again. I don't really need to explain this post away because it's just an intelligence shot, and a lousy one to boot. I get the feeling you didn't even read what you quoted from me

To make a long story short. Humanity needs more wisdom. Technology is going to grow on its own, but wisdom needs to hurry and catch up before some dumbass goes and builds a death star.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Never said a word, pal

Intended misinterpretations aside, you're just making wild assumptions about my posts again. I don't really need to explain this post away because it's just an intelligence shot, and a lousy one to boot. I get the feeling you didn't even read what you quoted from me

To make a long story short. Humanity needs more wisdom. Technology is going to grow on its own, but wisdom needs to hurry and catch up before some dumbass goes and builds a death star.

lolwut

Dude. Dude. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

I know what you said. It was dumb.