Dr. Tarrasque Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Oh, I know plenty about the tiering, but my reply to that... F*** it. It needs to burn in hell. Tiering is terrible. All it does is make some units seem like trash, and idolizes others. Like Seth, who is not as good as the tier lists make him appear. So does calling underleveled growth units like Ewan "good". Before tier lists, people were discouraging others from using prepromotes while encouraging (and idolizing the likes of Nino) the use of characters that require more time and effort to get the same (or worse) result at the cost of more time spent. If you like to spend more turns than you have to babying crap bases just so to see more green on the stat screen, that's your business but not everyone feels the same way and some would prefer units that don't require such effort in order to beat self-imposed goals such as low-turn counts. If you believe that tier lists saying a character is low tier means you must never use him/her, the fault does not lie in the tier list but in your own interpretation (Marty is low tier in FE5 and I enjoy using him anyway). I advise you to do yourself of favor and cease this conversation as your opinion is rather flawed and will only incite unnecessary arguments. Edited April 7, 2011 by Sirius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Oh, I know plenty about the tiering, but my reply to that... F*** it. It needs to burn in hell. Tiering is terrible. All it does is make some units seem like trash, and idolizes others. Like Seth, who is not as good as the tier lists make him appear. A tier list is a way to rank units on how much they contribute to beating the game with a set of self-imposed restrictions/challenges. No more, no less. What I want to know is: Even disregarding efficiency, who is better than Seth (in FE8)? Who even comes close? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 A tier list is a way to rank units on how much they contribute to beating the game with a set of self-imposed restrictions/challenges. No more, no less. What I want to know is: Even disregarding efficiency, who is better than Seth (in FE8)? Who even comes close? Vanessa, Franz, and a helluva lot of other characters come to mind. Full list: Vanessa>Franz>Tana>Forde=Kyle>Amelia=Duessel=Seth>Syrene That is the mounted Sword/Lance users list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Vanessa>Franz>Tana>Forde=Kyle>Amelia=Duessel=Seth>Syrene Reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Vanessa has flying and turns out better, Franz turns out better, can go GK for WTC, and looks better, Tana for flight, Forde and Kyle for being slightly better, Amelia... Don't remember why, but it could be the Knight->Great Knight ability, or the Cav->GK. Duessel for being Duessel and Awesome. Only thing Seth has is EXP hogging and join in prologue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 In chapters P - 8, Seth is your best unit. He has the best stats, best weapon ranks, most move, canto, etc. The only thing he can't do is fly. After chapter 8, he continues to have the best stats etc., or you Tower abuse everyone to 20/20. Then everyone ORKO's everything and never dies, including Seth. The only time anyone is superior to Seth is in the last couple chapters in the game, and only if you didn't abuse the Tower/Ruins. So, Seth is the best unit for 90% of the game, and is still great for the last 10%. EXP hogging isn't an argument, and neither is 'Franz looks better'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Oh, I know plenty about the tiering, but my reply to that... F*** it. It needs to burn in hell. Tiering is terrible. I don't like to use this word, but the only word to describe you right now is "butthurt." Tiering is not terrible. It is as Sirius said: the fault lies with you. You have the remember that liking a character and having fun using them is not the same as that character actually being good. Only thing Seth has is EXP hogging and join in prologue. The nestling still has a long way to go. Read this. Mekkah wrote it: 6.3 Hogging EXP This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite. Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy. Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot. L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat. Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18. After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage. Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25. Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25. Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills. Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25. Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa. Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C. This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim. Vanessa>Franz>Tana>Forde=Kyle>Amelia=Duessel=Seth>Syrene Most of this isn't actually that bad outside of a tier setting except the lolworthy Amelia = Seth. At least the others have decent-to-good starts, mounts, and some have flight. But still, speaking as objectively as possible, Seth is just too broken to lose to any of them. Edited April 8, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Oh, I know plenty about the tiering, but my reply to that... F*** it. It needs to burn in hell. Tiering is terrible. All it does is make some units seem like trash, and idolizes others. Like Seth, who is not as good as the tier lists make him appear. Tier lists are the closest thing to being most accurate though, sometimes they need fixing so they aren't always stable but arguments with facts help move around units depending where they should be placed. I can say that Ilyana resulted into a speeddemon but another player's Ilyana never doubled, so who is right? Personal experience isn't reliable ^^' Tier lists are like I said the more accurate things letting players know which characters have an easier time beating opponents vs characters that require special attention to get results. ^_^ If you think a character is better than another why don't you present a debate? Edited April 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I can say that Ilyana resulted into a speeddemon but another player's Ilyana never doubled, so who is right? I've never had an Ilyana who could double. It makes me le sad. Point we're all trying to make here, 13, is we're not blaming you for liking Ewan or Franz or whatthefuckeever you want to. What's trying to be laid down here is there's no factual basis to say that Seth < Franz. I like Franz more, but that doesn't make him better. As to the XP hogging mentality, look at it this way: A Franz gets almost all the kills. B Seth gets almost all the kills. These cannot exist together. In Chapter 8, A Franz is level 20/1 while A Seth is --/2. Franz has a minor advantage on Seth and will continue to grow this advantage from here on out. In Chapter 8, B Franz is level 6 while B Seth is --/7. Far from "hogging" all the XP, B Seth is objectively better than A Franz. This means that the XP invested gave us a better unit. In Chapter 18, A Franz is level 20/15 while A Seth is --/4. Franz has a tremendous advantage on Seth and Seth is now completely obsolete. In Chapter 18, B Franz is level 20/4 while A Seth is --/20. A Franz is now better than B Seth, but he took his damn sweet time getting there. However, now the B Team is better overall than the A Team because we've determined that, as of now, A Franz is barely better than B Seth and B Franz is notably better than A Seth. So what did Seth hog? He took the lion's share of kills and used them to become a stellar unit, the same as Franz or Lute or Ross would have. The defense rests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 The biggest flaw in your argument I see Integrity, is that Seth does not need the lion's share of the kills to become a stellar unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I've never had an Ilyana who could double. It makes me le sad. Lol silly Integ also @ 13 tiering especially "efficiency" tagged tiers have a set of turns a chapter needs to be finished, etc. Therefore having turns and turns of babysitting a character to get decent results hurts their placing in the tier lists ^_^ Seth needs no kills but he could use boss kills for your own benefit. I like giving his leftovers to anyone i'm training :3 Besides feeding every kill to Seth only is as inefficient as giving them to Amelia, even if its faster its inefficient if Seth is your only decent fighter youre screwed for the rout chapters therefore train people along the way so they can help out later. Edited April 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) The biggest flaw in your argument I see Integrity, is that Seth does not need the lion's share of the kills to become a stellar unit. That's another point for Seth, but I accept this. What it means is that B Franz will be consistently higher level than A Seth and will therefore mean that the B Team is even more betterer. Edited April 7, 2011 by Integrity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 That's another point for Seth, but I accept this. I just felt you should have mentioned that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I just felt you should have mentioned that. Why? You did it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Why? You did it for me. ...Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 The nestling still has a long way to go. Read this. I think it was Reikken who wrote it: Nope, it was me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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