Drafting Tournaments Explained

[Janissary]

I think it is really telling that all three of the drafts Red Fox linked to are not HHM exclusively. Two are other modes, and the third is LM + HHM. Those really shouldn't be considered for standard format, imo.

[Radiant Dragon]

I think it is really telling that all three of the drafts Red Fox linked to are not HHM exclusively. Two are other modes, and the third is LM + HHM. Those really shouldn't be considered for standard format, imo.

I don't think that Warp in HHM saves a significant amount of turns compared to HNM, though. Fliers do perform stronger in HNM though, due to fewer and weaker enemies.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Janissary]

I don't think that Warp in HHM saves a significant amount of turns compared to HNM, though. Fliers do perform stronger in HNM though, due to fewer and weaker enemies.

I thought Warp was much more relevant in HNM. It's so much easier to pull off ridiculous warp strategies due to the weak enemies. On Victory/Death, I warped Priscilla with a rescued Hector into the middle of the map and let her have an enemy phase with a rescued Hector without even thinking about.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't have too much experience with HHM after Warp appears, so I suppose it's possible that the stronger enemies would limit how far you can Warp.

[Florete]

Maybe not always (I promise to use less absolutes from now on), but looking over the OP, looking at Hector mode only drafts, and ignoring SOYOs and the Tactician Stars draft leaves us with 9 drafts:

7 have seen a Priscilla or Pent first pick, 5 have seen both Pent and Priscilla picked in the first round, and all 9 have seen either of them go in the first round.

Only 1 has seen Florina as a first pick, and only 2 have seen her as a first round pick.

Other first round picks tend to be Serra, Raven, Oswin and Cavaliers.

Clear-cut? No, not quite. But pretty close, if you ask me.

First off, why the hell did I not think of using the topic we're posting in that also has the compiled list of all the drafts? Seriously, me.

Second, wow. I didn't realize it was that close, but it's still not *that* bad. It's not like Haar who pretty much always goes first pick, and there are two of them (PoR Marcia and Jill, anyone?). Plus, unlike the Tellius fliers, Warp takes a bit of skill to use properly and, in Priscilla's case, possibly some planning ahead/luck with stat gains. Point I make is that not every player will be able to use Warp wisely.

Even in Haar's case it's arguable if he's worth banning, so I'd still say Warp isn't worth banning.

[Radiant Dragon]

(PoR Marcia and Jill, anyone?)

PoR is also a bad game to draft, for this reason.

Plus, unlike the Tellius fliers, Warp takes a bit of skill to use properly and, in Priscilla's case, possibly some planning ahead/luck with stat gains. Point I make is that not every player will be able to use Warp wisely.

I try to assume we're dealing with competent players when deciding upon rule-sets. Regardless of what's decided at the end, I don't want the reason to be 'because not everyone's good enough to use it effectively'.

Even in Haar's case it's arguable if he's worth banning, so I'd still say Warp isn't worth banning.

The player who goes first in an RD draft picks Haar and wins, if they're even slightly competent at the game. I'd say that's worth banning. I continue to insist that as long as the first and second drafters maintain competitive turncounts until Warp appears, Warp will put them ahead 100% of the time.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Florete]

PoR is also a bad game to draft, for this reason.

I try to assume we're dealing with competent players when deciding upon rule-sets. Regardless of what's decided at the end, I don't want the reason to be 'because not everyone's good enough to use it effectively'.

Both points taken.

The player who goes first in an RD draft picks Haar and wins, if they're even slightly competent at the game. I'd say that's worth banning. I continue to insist that as long as the first and second drafters maintain competitive turncounts until Warp appears, Warp will put them ahead 100% of the time.

As mentioned before, Haar generally means a weaker part 1 (yes, Meg exists, but she is still weaker). After comparing what I did with Haar to what I did with Titania and neither, a competent player with neither can likely beat a 'slightly competent' player with either, particularly if they have a strong part 1 and good part 4 distribution. It's just the nature of RD, really. In the end, I'm not opposed to banning Haar, I just don't think it's totally necessary. Warp seems generally less powerful, so I don't think it warrants a ban at all, especially considering any competent drafter should have one of Warp access and a flier or both (even Renault applies if 31x is forced, since that will inevitably lower the overall effect of it). There is only one Haar in RD.

I've never actually used Lucius in a draft or tried to get him to A staves, but with an early promotion I could see that being possible, and even with an early promotion he'll still have high Mag to use it with. That makes 4 Warp users before the staff shows up and a fifth one for the last few maps. Effectively everyone can have a Warper from VoD to the end (Renault's starting position is actually somewhat significant). Everyone can also have a flier by then, but Vaida's Aid makes her flight a lot less special.

[Radiant Dragon]

As mentioned before, Haar generally means a weaker part 1 (yes, Meg exists, but she is still weaker).

It may be considered 'weaker', but if they can still finish Part 1 with competitive turncounts (and thanks to Sothe, they can), then it doesn't matter whether they have Nolan or Jill or Meg.

After comparing what I did with Haar to what I did with Titania and neither, a competent player with neither can likely beat a 'slightly competent' player with either, particularly if they have a strong part 1 and good part 4 distribution. It's just the nature of RD, really. In the end, I'm not opposed to banning Haar, I just don't think it's totally necessary.

Fair enough.

Warp seems generally less powerful, so I don't think it warrants a ban at all, especially considering any competent drafter should have one of Warp access and a flier or both

I've used Lucius in a draft before, and while I didn't play with the intent of getting him to A staves, I can imagine it'd be nearly impossible to do so while maintaining low turns, even with an early promotion and having him use a Staff practically every turn. Renault and Serra work for 32x and good enough for Final, but their lower Magic (and Renault's starting position in 32) prevent them from being as effective in other Warpable chapters.

Everyone can also have a flier by then, but Vaida's Aid makes her flight a lot less special.

For some reason, I always forget that Vaida's Aid is only 8...

Edited July 29, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Florete]

I've used Lucius in a draft before, and while I didn't play with the intent of getting him to A staves, I can imagine it'd be nearly impossible to do so while maintaining low turns, even with an early promotion and having him use a Staff practically every turn. Renault and Serra work for 32x and good enough for Final, but their lower Magic (and Renault's starting position in 32) prevent them from being as effective in 30 and 32.

Starting at C staves means instant access to Hammerne. Assuming you need no more than 9 Warp uses (and that doesn't seem likely), that's 16 free WEXP right there (out of 110 needed). Spamming Barrier is 4 each, giving 56 for a full staff and reaching A entirely if you get two of them, and in only 28 turns. Sounds like a lot, but with the likes of Ch 26 always being 12 turns and 28 always being 15 (there's 27 already) and other maps stacking up, I can see it being rather easy if you focus on it.

As for Serra and Renault, the point is that them existing still lessens Pent/Priscilla's overall impact. If the player with Pent uses Warp to save 12 turns and the player with Serra uses it to save 6 turns, that's still only a net gain of 6, not 12. Renault's position is actually good in 32 for being rather close to the Gate with no effort.

Finally, as far as Mag goes; I don't tend to like using luck in arguments, but if Serra/Priscilla happen to get higher than average Mag (either by luck or that other method), they become just as effective and even better than Pent. If they get screwed, minimum staff range is 5 anyway, so it doesn't matter too much.

[Radiant Dragon]

Starting at C staves means instant access to Hammerne. Assuming you need no more than 9 Warp uses (and that doesn't seem likely), that's 16 free WEXP right there (out of 110 needed). Spamming Barrier is 4 each, giving 56 for a full staff and reaching A entirely if you get two of them, and in only 28 turns. Sounds like a lot, but with the likes of Ch 26 always being 12 turns and 28 always being 15 (there's 27 already) and other maps stacking up, I can see it being rather easy if you focus on it.

Now that I think about it... *Double checks my first FE7 draft*

Huh. I actually did manage to get Lucius to A staves, on the first turn of Chapter 32. And I would've gotten it earlier if I had promoted him before Chapter 26, instead of after. I retract my previous statement then.

As for Serra and Renault, the point is that them existing still lessens Pent/Priscilla's overall impact. If the player with Pent uses Warp to save 12 turns and the player with Serra uses it to save 6 turns, that's still only a net gain of 6, not 12. Renault's position is actually good in 32 for being rather close to the Gate with no effort.

Finally, as far as Mag goes; I don't tend to like using luck in arguments, but if Serra/Priscilla happen to get higher than average Mag (either by luck or that other method), they become just as effective and even better than Pent. If they get screwed, minimum staff range is 5 anyway, so it doesn't matter too much.

Besides the fact that Serra will never be better than Pent for Warping, and I'm still not totally convinced that Warp shouldn't be banned, I'm beginning to agree that it's not necessary for FE7. I do think it should be banned for FE6, though. FE8... has other balance issues (Franz and Vanessa dominating) that need fixing first.

[Darros]

I finished FE4 Draft 5 with 495 turns, I'm the only one to have finished. Edited July 29, 2011 by Spykitty

[General Horace]

Lucius is quite easy to get to an A in staves. I think it was a HNM draft, but I had him actually hit an S in staves, can't remember what chapter, i'll check. Ironically, I also had Pent in that draft.

EDIT: It was Soul's HHM draft that I had Lucius and Pent, Lucy hit A in staves in chapter 28, promoted at level 15. But yeah, Lucius and Pent are the only viable warpers.

Edited July 29, 2011 by General_Horace

[Florete]

But yeah, Lucius and Pent are the only viable warpers.

Serra, Priscilla, and Renault? <_<

[Junkhead]

All of them have crappy Mag. 8[

[Florete]

All of them have crappy Mag. 8[

They are still viable Warpers. Priscilla can probably have ~14-16 Mag realistically and has a horse on top of it.

Oh, I also forgot Athos, who is generally going to be a free Warper for Light.

[Balcerzak]

I'm of the opinion that warp only needs banning when Hammerne/Repair is Prf. So... Shadow Dragon and Thracia.

Maybe that's just me.

[Toothache]

Warp may come a lot sooner in FE6, but with weapon ranks being so much slower I doubt many units will have the rank to use it. Maybe Saul, since he starts with C and can certainly get to A staves if he's promoted by then. This does put a damper on using the other early staff bots, since it will take them a long time to hit A staves, and probably by then Niime and Yodel have come along.

Waiting for people to respond to these points.

[Balcerzak]

Waiting for people to respond to these points.

I'm not sure how much there is to say. Saul can definitely reach rank for Warp by 14x. I haven't looked at Ellen in-depth, but I'm almost positive Clarine will miss this first bench-mark. 14x though is still very conducive to flier skip, so Warp will only make things easier and slightly faster. That said, there is more than enough game left for even a later-than-immediate warp to show up, and it's not futile as they can convert many half-skip chapters into full-skip chapters. This may somewhat diminish the total amount of turns saved, but there's so many viable opportunities to warp it's never exactly clear which are hands-down the most economical.

[General Horace]

They are still viable Warpers. Priscilla can probably have ~14-16 Mag realistically and has a horse on top of it.

Oh, I also forgot Athos, who is generally going to be a free Warper for Light.

In chapter 32x, you need a staffer with at least 20 magic to warp a unit in to kill Kishuna. That's level 20/14 for Priscilla, or level 20/16 for Serra. Both aren't happening. And Renault, has what, 6 range.

Edited July 29, 2011 by General_Horace

[Janissary]

In chapter 32x, you need a staffer with at least 20 magic to warp a unit in to kill Kishuna. That's level 20/14 for Priscilla, or level 20/16 for Serra. Both aren't happening. And Renault, has what, 6 range.

I thought you only needed 9 range in order to get into the center room? I'm pretty sure my Priscilla could do it in the HNM draft...

[Balcerzak]

I thought you only needed 9 range in order to get into the center room? I'm pretty sure my Priscilla could do it in the HNM draft...

Counting on the WOD map, it's 10 to get right in front of Kishuna and not be blocked by the reinforcements. I'm not sure what happens if you warp to one of the squares that is supposed to get occupied.

[Florete]

Counting on the WOD map, it's 10 to get right in front of Kishuna and not be blocked by the reinforcements. I'm not sure what happens if you warp to one of the squares that is supposed to get occupied.

It's 9 to get right in front of Kishuna because Warp range starts from the unit being Warped, not the Warper. It's 7 range just to get into the room and anyone can Warp someone in front of the room. Not as fast, but still saves turns, which is the point to be made.

[Janissary]

My point is that if you warp a unit into the room who hasn't moved yet, you can still one turn it. That's what I did. Dart had to move in front of Kishuna. It was not big deal. Priscilla had maybe 15 or 16 magic? I don't recall.

In other news, I think we seriously need to consider making Franz free (or banned) and Tethys(or Myrrh) draftable. Franz is so overpower in Stones. With the XP formula, he can easily promote at level 20 by the first Knight Crest, but more importantly, he is the only Cavalier until Chapter 8. He's so broken it isn't even funny. Obviously the biggest issue is Vanessa + Franz on pick 1. I'm not sure how that would go. I just think Franz is so absurdly broken that something needs to change. At least as of now if you pick Vanessa, you don't get a top tier early gamer like Garcia or Franz (if you are in a decent draft). Franz doesn't have a balance like that; once he gets a speed or two, he rapes. I soloed with Franz and Eirika through Chapter 8ish and the turncounts I have are ridiculous. I shouldn't be able to be so fast with only two units (and a healer after Chapter 5). If I had been smart enough to take Gilliam or Ross or Neimi for early game defeat enemy maps, I would be absolutely crushing my turn counts. Franz is just soooo good.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Janissary

[Florete]

My point is that if you warp a unit into the room who hasn't moved yet, you can still one turn it. That's what I did. Dart had to move in front of Kishuna. It was not big deal. Priscilla had maybe 15 or 16 magic? I don't recall.

Did you mean to respond to me with this? Because I don't understand why you would have needed to say this to me.

[Janissary]

Did you mean to respond to me with this? Because I don't understand why you would have needed to say this to me.

I was just sort of jumping along the general conversation. I wasn't replying directly to you, I'm just in the habit of clicking reply to a post instead of a topic. I should edit that.