General Horace Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Looks like I open. I will be defending Barst, whilst Sho will be defending Navarre/Narbal. Or whatever you want to call him. Barst comes in the second chapter, and will have the best offence on the team barring the possibility that an overlevelled OP Altean Cav Exists. Lets take a look at his bases: Level 3 Fighter HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Lvl 24 10 6 9 5 6 0 D Axes You're probably crapping your pants right now looking at those bases. Weapon Atk Hit(+) Hit(O) Hit(-) AS Range Iron Axe 17 100 90 80 9 1 Hand Axe 18 80 70 60 9 1-2 Steel Axe 20 90 80 70 9 1 That is some crazy attack. He boasts the most powerful 1-2 range attack on the team by far. He even beats out a Level 10 Abel with a C in Lances. And this is 7 levels lower. But he can't hit! Yes, he can. How many sword users are there in the first 12 Chapters that are not thieves? I count less than 10. This game is extremely lance heavy. So this improves his hitrates well. So Narbal (I'm referring him to Narbal as I have the European copy of the game) Comes along in chapter 3, way the hell out of the way. His bases look like this: HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Lvl 19 5 9 11 8 6 0 C Swords Astounding. He is getting slaughtered by Barst right now. Barst has +5 HP, +5 Str, -3 Skl -2 Spd +3 Lck and equal defence and resistance. However, Narbal is unlikely to stay as a Myrmidon. We'll want more movement, won't we? So at the beginning of chapters, our two units are looking like this: Unit Class Level HP ST SK SP LK DF RS WEP Barst Fighter 6 26.4 11.2 7.2 9.9 6.2 6.45 00 D Axe Narbal Cavalier 4 21.9 7.3 2.4 6.5 8.4 9.1 00 C Sword E Lance I was generous and gave Narbal a level as a myrmidon for killing all the fighters he hangs around in chapter 3. In chapter 4, you may think that Narbal is better due to more move. However, Marth is quite a few spots back of the furthest west deployment slot, so even if Barst doesn't get the bosskill, he can assist in taking out the cavs, or take out the fighters and hunter to the north for exp. Navarre fails to double anything on the map, except for the Knight, whom he can barely scratch anyway. Navarre 3RKO's with a Steel Sword, and doesn't double. Barst will double the Armourslayer dude for the 0RKO, and If he procs speed will also one round Matthis. He 2RKO's everything on the map, except the boss, whom he isn't making it to anyway. But Narbal can! The boss packs a ridersbane, and Narbal has no 2 range weapon, and has shaky hitrates because of weapon disadvantage and his godawful skill. Narbal will get better though right? Here are their growths: Unit HP ST SK SP LC DF RS Barst 80 40 40 30 40 15 00 Narbal 80 35 45 35 40 20 00 Barst's growths are not really considered to be excellent, but merely passable. And Narbal's are more or less the same. So Narbal's stats are never going to be getting very much better. Chapter 5 is loaded with Knights, and it is possible to get Barts to the throne on turn 5, and it is feasible to have C axes at this point. It only takes 11 battles to get there. That's 3.67 battles per chapter, not including the first parts of chapter 5. Perfectly obtainable. Barst is your best bet for a Knight killer due to Hammer useage, if he wasn't already due to awesome strength and 1-2 range with WTA. Narbal barely scratches them, and is still failing to double anything other than Knights. Chapter 6 requires a unit that can bust through all the knights and the mage at the start. Barst is still one rounding easily. Navarre still needs crits to do any damage, because of his poor speed. But lo! There is a Killing Edge in this chapter! Well, good luck getting that. I don't think anyone has managed. The OP cav is required for the bosskill, and Jeigan also helps with his lance. Look! Navarre can reach the boss before Marth can and Barst can't! I doubt if Navarre can do anything to the boss without being killed in 2 rounds of combat. You get the point of earlygame I think. Barst can get to the Chapter 7 boss before Marth seizes, so he can get the bosskill there. Lets fastforward to Chapter... I'll say 14, because 13 is stupid. Although Barst smashes those ballistaes. Lets take a look at our units now... UNIT Class Level HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 18/1 38 17 21.2 18.5 11.0 12.2 3.0 B Axe D Sword Narbal Paladin 15/1 34.7 13.2 10.4 11.4 12.8 12.3 6.0 B Sword C Lance [b]Matthis[/b] Paladin 15/1 35.7 11.8 8.9 9.6 3.9 11.9 6.0 B Lance E Sword Barst @ Iron Axe has 24 attack, and 18 AS. Narbal @ Silver Sword has 26 attack, and 11 AS. Matthis @ Silver Lance has 25 attack, and 9 AS Uh, Barst is hitting with 2 less attack with the cheapest weapon in the game, with 7 more AS, than Navarre is with a Silver Sword. Also, Navarre is failing to double some promoted stuff, and even some unpromoted cavaliers. Barst doubles everything. Also, when you are only outdamaging MATTHIS by 1, you're doing it wrong. Woop. Barst @ Hand Axe has 25 Attack, and 18 AS. Narbal @ Javelin 21 Attack, and 11 AS Matthis @ Javelin 19 Attack, and 9 AS Barst is again doubling everything, except this time, with 4 more attack. So, Well... Narbal is winning in Luck! Narbal has 2 move on Barst, but more often that not, there are multiple spaces that are multiple spaces closer to the throne than Marth is, and Marth will only have one more move. I also threw in Matthis, who is the worst cavalier by consensus. Narbal isn't excactly demolishing him, is he? And Matthis can use silver lances, and could use Ridersbanes and Javelins earlier. Barst is still destroying the General bosses here with his Hammer, and is one rounding literally everything on the map. Narbal even fails to take out the boss here with an armourslayer in one round, and is 2RKO'd in return. But Navarre can fly! That takes away the only good thing about him, his Sword rank. When lategame comes around, the Gradivus user is the only unit that really matters, and Narbal is not doing that. Barst is more useful at taking care of the refuse that Impedes Marth's progress anyhow, due to superior offence. 8 Movement is more than enough to stay ahead of Marth for the first few turns. Endgame stats, just for fun. UNIT Class Level HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 18/10 42.2 18.4 23.7 21.2 13.8 13.6 3.0 A Axe D Sword Narbal Pally 15/07 39.5 15.2 13.1 13.4 15.2 13.5 6.0 A Sword C Lance I'm not going to post combat numbers here, as Barst still destroys Narbal. Those stats pretty much sum up this debate. Even though neither of them is doing much in the final chapter, look at the stats. Barst wins in everything except Luck and Resistance, the most useless stats in this game. Narbal may have exclusive use to Mercurius if Ogma doesn't exist, but he's not doubling anything with that speed. Barst wins earlygame by a landslide, Midgame by a landslide, and they both do nothing in lategame, so he wins that too. So basically, Barst beats Narbal earlygame due to 1-2 range and substantially better offence, Barts beats Narbal Mid-game to to far superior offence and boss killing, and Barst beats Narbal Late-game because they are both next to useless, and Barst's stats are much better. So, Barts >>> Narbal. Edited February 24, 2011 by General_Horace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 My turn. I admit that Lord Horace was very good there with his people saving even if others think he is a traCRUNCH... but now its the turn of the Grim Heaper to ad him to the pile. Looks like I open. I will be defending Barst, whilst Sho will be defending Navarre/Narbal. Or whatever you want to call him. Even if I have the euro version I prefer Navarre Also wheres the pun? Barst comes in the second chapter, and will have the best offence on the team barring the possibility that an overlevelled OP Altean Cav Exists. And we both know there is no Altean cav for you if you take Barst...Yep he is that wanted. On the other hand Having One of them with Navarre is much more easier. This is because instead of wasting my first pick on likes of Ogma and Barst I got my cav/shiida/Hardin and by the time Barsts Ogmas Merrics Julians and Lenas and the like is taken I pick my precious Navarre with no problem what so ever. Lets take a look at his bases: Level 3 Fighter HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Lvl 24 10 6 9 5 6 0 D Axes You're probably crapping your pants right now looking at those bases. Weapon Atk Hit(+) Hit(O) Hit(-) AS Range Iron Axe 17 100 90 80 9 1 Hand Axe 18 80 70 60 9 1-2 Steel Axe 20 90 80 70 9 1 That is some crazy attack. He boasts the most powerful 1-2 range attack on the team by far. He even beats out a Level 10 Abel with a C in Lances. And this is 7 levels lower. But he can't hit! Yes, he can. How many sword users are there in the first 12 Chapters that are not thieves? I count less than 10. This game is extremely lance heavy. So this improves his hitrates well. So he overkills. Big deal. Killing is plenty. Utility with it is more important than overdoing it... So Narbal (I'm referring him to Narbal as I have the European copy of the game) Comes along in chapter 3, way the hell out of the way. His bases look like this: HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Lvl 19 5 9 11 8 6 0 C Swords Astounding. He is getting slaughtered by Barst right now. Barst has +5 HP, +5 Str, -3 Skl -2 Spd +3 Lck and equal defence and resistance. but he kills and that is all that matters. Now his Utility from the Higher Movement on the other hand... However, Narbal is unlikely to stay as a Myrmidon. We'll want more movement, won't we? So at the beginning of chapters, our two units are looking like this: Unit Class Level HP ST SK SP LK DF RS WEP Barst Fighter 6 26.4 11.2 7.2 9.9 6.2 6.45 00 D Axe Narbal Cavalier 4 21.9 7.3 2.4 6.5 8.4 9.1 00 C Sword E Lance First mistake. Its still Myrmidon... HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Lvl 19.9 5.3 9.4 11.5 8.4 6.1 0 C Swords I was generous and gave Narbal a level as a myrmidon for killing all the fighters he hangs around in chapter 3. Thank you In chapter 4, you may think that Narbal is better due to more move. However, Marth is quite a few spots back of the furthest west deployment slot, so even if Barst doesn't get the bosskill, he can assist in taking out the cavs, or take out the fighters and hunter to the north for exp. Navarre fails to double anything on the map, except for the Knight, whom he can barely scratch anyway. Navarre 3RKO's with a Steel Sword, and doesn't double. Barst will double the Armourslayer dude for the 0RKO, and If he procs speed will also one round Matthis. He 2RKO's everything on the map, except the boss, whom he isn't making it to anyway. Or we can give the spot to Myrm!Navarre and put our Actually good first pick to the second. Assuming this is 5 person draft we will have one of Shiida or the altean cavs If we have spot 1-4. If it spot for then Im just gona say: Fuck navarre! Im taking Ogma or maybe that barst of yuors and Hardin. Good rest of the game for you~~ But with spot 1-4 Myrm navarre and First pick is plenty to make Marth some space while Jagen goes to rambo the Boss. Narbal will get better though right? Here are their growths: Unit HP ST SK SP LC DF RS Barst 80 40 40 30 40 15 00 Narbal 80 35 45 35 40 20 00 Barst's growths are not really considered to be excellent, but merely passable. And Narbal's are more or less the same. So Narbal's stats are never going to be getting very much better. All Navarre needs is a speedwing to start double as a cav. Competition was? I say Resourse not needed by anyone = No need of Resources What did you say? It comes later? So does growths kicking in you silly silly boy :P Chapter 5 is loaded with Knights, and it is possible to get Barts to the throne on turn 5, and it is feasible to have C axes at this point. It only takes 11 battles to get there. That's 3.67 battles per chapter, not including the first parts of chapter 5. Perfectly obtainable. Barst is your best bet for a Knight killer due to Hammer useage, if he wasn't already due to awesome strength and 1-2 range with WTA. Narbal barely scratches them, and is still failing to double anything other than Knights. Any of the first picks rape this one with Jagen while Cavalier Navarre and possible extra skrubs rape archers:newyears: Chapter 6 requires a unit that can bust through all the knights and the mage at the start. Barst is still one rounding easily. Like basically any first pick... Navarre still needs crits to do any damage, because of his poor speed Thats what Killing Edge is for. But lo! There is a Killing Edge in this chapter!Well, good luck getting that. I don't think anyone has managed. The OP cav is required for the bosskill, and Jeigan also helps with his lance. Navarre moment of awesomeness. OP cav and armourslayer Navarre beat the boss while Jagen kills the silver dude and KE thief. Thiefs got that slayer sure but wise player has his 1-2 scrub to reclaim it. They have full inventory so it goes to Marth. And that is where Navarre is Look! Navarre can reach the boss before Marth can and Barst can't!I doubt if Navarre can do anything to the boss without being killed in 2 rounds of combat. Armorslayer You get the point of earlygame I think. Barst can get to the Chapter 7 boss before Marth seizes, so he can get the bosskill there. Starts with A. Ends with R. Kick in couple of jagen potshots and be done with this Lets fastforward to Chapter... I'll say 14, because 13 is stupid. Although Barst smashes those ballistaes.Lets take a look at our units now... UNIT Class Level HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 18/1 38 17 21.2 18.5 11.0 12.2 3.0 B Axe D Sword Narbal Paladin 15/1 34.7 13.2 10.4 11.4 12.8 12.3 6.0 B Sword C Lance [b]Matthis[/b] Paladin 15/1 35.7 11.8 8.9 9.6 3.9 11.9 6.0 B Lance E Sword Barst @ Iron Axe has 24 attack, and 18 AS. Narbal @ Silver Sword has 26 attack, and 11 AS. Matthis @ Silver Lance has 25 attack, and 9 AS Uh, Barst is hitting with 2 less attack with the cheapest weapon in the game, with 7 more AS, than Navarre is with a Silver Sword. Also, Navarre is failing to double some promoted stuff, and even some unpromoted cavaliers. Barst doubles everything. Also, when you are only outdamaging MATTHIS by 1, you're doing it wrong. Woop. Barst @ Hand Axe has 25 Attack, and 18 AS. Narbal @ Javelin 21 Attack, and 11 AS Matthis @ Javelin 19 Attack, and 9 AS Barst is again doubling everything, except this time, with 4 more attack. Speedwing is the solution of all Navarre's problems when it comes to damage. And Im still not going to give Barst cookies from being overkill Also Matthis is kinda good Well... Narbal is winning in Luck!Narbal has 2 move on Barst, but more often that not, there are multiple spaces that are multiple spaces closer to the throne than Marth is, and Marth will only have one more move. I also threw in Matthis, who is the worst cavalier by consensus. Narbal isn't excactly demolishing him, is he? And Matthis can use silver lances, and could use Ridersbanes and Javelins earlier. Barst is still destroying the General bosses here with his Hammer, and is one rounding literally everything on the map. Narbal even fails to take out the boss here with an armourslayer in one round, and is 2RKO'd in return. Jagen's silver support is plenty to kill the bosses. But Navarre can fly!That takes away the only good thing about him, his Sword rank. When lategame comes around, the Gradivus user is the only unit that really matters, and Narbal is not doing that. Barst is more useful at taking care of the refuse that Impedes Marth's progress anyhow, due to superior offence. 8 Movement is more than enough to stay ahead of Marth for the first few turns. So is 10 mov. Also my Gravidus is better than yours because my first pick wasnt wasted on Barst. Endgame stats, just for fun. UNIT Class Level HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 18/10 42.2 18.4 23.7 21.2 13.8 13.6 3.0 A Axe D Sword Narbal Pally 15/07 39.5 15.2 13.1 13.4 15.2 13.5 6.0 A Sword C Lance I'm not going to post combat numbers here, as Barst still destroys Narbal. Those stats pretty much sum up this debate. Even though neither of them is doing much in the final chapter, look at the stats. Barst wins in everything except Luck and Resistance, the most useless stats in this game. Narbal may have exclusive use to Mercurius if Ogma doesn't exist, but he's not doubling anything with that speed. S-P-E-E-D-W-I-N-G. Barst wins earlygame by a landslide, Midgame by a landslide, and they both do nothing in lategame, so he wins that too.So basically, Barst beats Narbal earlygame due to 1-2 range and substantially better offence, Barts beats Narbal Mid-game to to far superior offence and boss killing, and Barst beats Narbal Late-game because they are both next to useless, and Barst's stats are much better. With the cost of OP cav/Shiida/Hardin and that will cost turn or 2. Navarre wont cost you anything outside next to useless Chapter 10 Speedwing and can help with bosses. So, Barts >>> Narbal. Nice daydream there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Counter! And we both know there is no Altean cav for you if you take Barst...Yep he is that wanted. On the other hand Having One of them with Navarre is much more easier. This is because instead of wasting my first pick on likes of Ogma and Barst I got my cav/shiida/Hardin and by the time Barsts Ogmas Merrics Julians and Lenas and the like is taken I pick my precious Navarre with no problem what so ever. General_Horace: Frey, Barst, Cord, Wendell, Vyland, Catria, Ceasar, Horace, Gordin, Etzel General_Horace: Caeda, Barst, Wendall, Draug, Palla, Gordin, Horace, Beck, Boah, Arran The_Steel_Lance: Frey, Cain, Barst, Cord, Draug, Castor, Roger, Horace, Matthis, Dolph Krad: Barst, Cain, Wolf, Sedgar, Roger, Midia, Elice, Vyland, Bantu I see Barst with 1 Altean Cav, Shiida, TWO Altean Cavs, and One Altean Cav. And you are already admitting Barst should be a higher pick than Narbal. Thanks bro. So he overkills. Big deal. Killing is plenty. Utility with it is more important than overdoing it... Too bad Narbal fails to kill until he hits silver, which is around Chapter 13. And You could potentially have Ogma, Cain, or SM! Jeigan using that Killing edge. All have much higher strength, except for Jeigan. but he kills and that is all that matters. Now his Utility from the Higher Movement on the other hand... Oh noes 1 move. What if the enemy is an archer, or a Javelin wielder, or a Hand Axe Wielder? Barst kills them, Narbal does not. They block Marth's path. Narbal has to stay and kill them. Barst marches on. As I've already mentioned, stick Barst closer to his destination. The cav of your choice doesn't need it. First mistake. Its still Myrmidon... Oh shi- now we have this 14 Atk ball of destruction running around! That does like, 12 damage to lance wielding 7 def cavs! Or we can give the spot to Myrm!Navarre and put our Actually good first pick to the second. Assuming this is 5 person draft we will have one of Shiida or the altean cavs If we have spot 1-4. If it spot for then Im just gona say: Fuck navarre! Im taking Ogma or maybe that barst of yuors and Hardin. Good rest of the game for you~~But with spot 1-4 Myrm navarre and First pick is plenty to make Marth some space while Jagen goes to rambo the Boss. Or Myrm Narbal would be beaten to within the inch of his life by cavaliers on par with Matthis. Oh look, they are all still alive and well too! Or Narbal's killing edge is half gone. Marth/Altean cav/Barst/Ogma/Cord/Jeigan does a much better job at this. All Navarre needs is a speedwing to start double as a cav. Competition was? I say Resourse not needed by anyone = No need of ResourcesWhat did you say? It comes later? So does growths kicking in you silly silly boy But you said that Narbal is going Myrmidon! Good competion includes Bord, Darros, Roshea, Matthis and even Barst. And the speedwings don't come until chapter 10. Looks like Narbal is either setting up other kills because he can't finish them as a Myrmidon, or he is failing to double as a Cav without a 1-2 range option for a while, whilst Barst is a wrecking ball. Any of the first picks rape this one with Jagen while Cavalier Navarre and possible extra skrubs rape archers:newyears: Oh look it's cav Narbal again! I thought he didn't exist! Barst can blast the first knight of the bridge for the Altean Cav to destroy everything else. Or if no Altean Cav exists, Barst can do everything himself? Can Narbal? And Narbal is essentially a scrub in this chapter as well if he is doing the same job as say... Gordin. Thats what Killing Edge is for. Let's close our eyes and hope we hear the critical hit sound! Or we could just have Barst kill it outright. And the killing edge isn't a Narbal Prf weapon as I established earlier. Navarre moment of awesomeness. OP cav and armourslayer Navarre beat the boss while Jagen kills the silver dude and KE thief. Thiefs got that slayer sure but wise player has his 1-2 scrub to reclaim it. They have full inventory so it goes to Marth. And that is where Navarre is Ok sure. I'll give you that one. Note that Ogma can do Navarre's job too. Better. Armorslayer Ogma can do this job too. Oh, and Narbal's skill sucks so badly as a cav that he faces a reasonable chace at whiffing it. Narbal Lvl 6 has 8 Strength 3 Skill, 7 Speed as a Cav. He has 80 + 3 + 4 hit - 10 WTD - 20 for the throne. That is ... 55 displayed hit. I don't like those odds. And damage wise. 8 + (7*3) + 1 = 30 Damage. Emerus's Defence = 14. Attack 30-14-1 = 15 Damage at 55 displayed hit. Narbal fails to double. Sure, it does some good damage, but you can't call that anywhere near reliable. The Altean Cav can Attack on the Player Phase, take an enemy phase, and if Emerus is still alive for whatever reason, finish on the next Player phase, allowing Marth to Seize. Narbal isn't even needed. Starts with A. Ends with R. Kick in couple of jagen potshots and be done with this Or you could just have Barst do it by himself and have Jeigan help clear the way for Marth, or heaven forbid, heal. Speedwing is the solution of all Navarre's problems when it comes to damage. And Im still not going to give Barst cookies from being overkillAlso Matthis is kinda good Speedwing is also not Narbal exclusive. 13 Speed still fails to double roughly half of the cavaliers, if they hit 10 AS, which is not out of the question. Even with a speedwing, Narbal fails to double Horsemen, most Paladins, and Heroes. And without an armourslayer, he's not touching Generals. Plus his Strength is still pretty pedestrian. Matthis? Good? Dear lord, he can hit things once for an average amount of damage. Jagen's silver support is plenty to kill the bosses Or Barst can just kill them outright while Jeigan does other stuff. So is 10 mov. Also my Gravidus is better than yours because my first pick wasnt wasted on Barst. PEMN, but I've used Roshea as a successful Gradivus user on a H3 draft. It's that OP. And as evidenced by the post near the top, Getting Barst and Shiida/Altean Cav/Hardin is easily doable. S-P-E-E-D-W-I-N-G. I'm glad you can spell. Even with a 3 speedwings, Narbal still falls short of Barst's speed. That's just sad. Barst isn't exactly a speed demon. With the cost of OP cav/Shiida/Hardin and that will cost turn or 2. Navarre wont cost you anything outside next to useless Chapter 10 Speedwing and can help with bosses. No, as evidenced above. Do more research and try again. You still haven't countered the fact that Narbal has no 1-2 range either, and when he does, it still isn't killing stuff. Nice daydream there... Daydream? I think it is a rather obvious fact. Oh, and the fact that Barst has gone higher than Narbal in every draft but one is not some coincidence either. Your counterarguement just makes Narbal seem like some filler character that contributes every once in a while. So my arguement still stands, Barst kills everything in his way, for the entire game, while Narbal needs multiple stat boosters to accomplish this. So .... Barst >>> Narbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) My turn. Im going bit more detailed this, time jumping between Horace's arguments to collect my anwers to them in at least little bit more readable format. Firstly Im sorry about the Barst and OP Cavs in same team thing. However the fact that Navarre is drafted later is a pros for easier access. Also I might add that I did not say Barst should be drafted before Navarre. I said he is. There is a crystal clear difference between what should and what does happen... hint: Barst, thiefs and mages/healers are way overrated For Navarres class It is usully a cavalier but he can go for myrmidon if his armorslayer utility is needed before his stats start to build up. Chapter 8 would be one those where boss has rather high def and our Hammer bot isnt there in a while. In such chapter Navarre's Armorslayer utility this time with actual skill stat can be very helpfull because all those reinforcements are threating and we might want our best unit keep them away of marth. As for Navarre's access to every Sword he wants: Ogma is good but Navarre is so not picked in the same team as him unless player likes to make shot him/herself to the foot... Cain is busy working his Lance rank after early Steel Sword utility. Jagen isn't a SM for a reason: Godly utility of Lance/Staff/Hammer Jagen. As for Navarre's performance in normal chapters early on his chipping is plenty for a kill with someone like Matthis or Gordin who are easy to add in character who are picked by the time all the really good units are shared. Sure its not as good as Barst's soloing everything but he has have more movement and thus will gain an edge in longer chapters like 11 where he can assist with making way for marth from start to the end while barst isnt really showing off after first couple of turns. Lets have a look: Chapters 2 and 3 Yeah, Yeah Navarre dont do anything Barst does something moving on... Chapter 4: I admit that Barst is clearly better here but navarre isn't completely useless either Chapter 5: This one is 4 turned at best so Barst won't go bosskilling here. On the other hand Navarre wont kill the boss either but he can ORKO archers as a cavalier because they have Steel bows to drop them 1-2 AS. Sure Barst can kill knights but we have our Jagen/Cav/Shiida for that job. All draco Jagen fears is archers. And they are killed by basically everything. Chapter 6: As I said Navarre can assist with the bosskill. Knights can be killed by OP units and Those who are left alive here are completely negateable with decent usage of baits. Also. For what its worth Jagen cann kill the Silver cav and reach the boss before Marth to make this chapter even easier. Chapter 6x: Here we can train our units, or be smart and train our Wpn levels. That we help with different utility things like Jagen's Hammer usage. Chapter 7: Im not sure but im pretty sure that Barst wont reach the boss by turn 6. This also means that his low movement will hold him down here. I think he wont reach enemies other than fliers who arent all that dangerous and easily baitable. ^dont exict :P Navarre is either holding cavaliers or assisting with bosskill. Chapter 8: As I said even Myrmidon Navarre can reach the boss. Barst our plessed hammer bot? I dont think so... Chapter 9: Pirate Barst shines here hands down but our swordie Isnt bad either. Chapter 10: Barst do have easy time with the cavaliers but by now Navarre can have B rank in swords for Silver sword of awesomeness. Sure there is Ogma but why would we have both? Also Navarre is yet another time able to help with boss. Barst is training in the castle i think. Also Navarre's issues with speed are now in th past thnks to speedwing. This would be the time to explain why Navarre does get it.: You gave me folloving units: Bord, Darros, Roshea, Matthis, Barst So we have 3 axe users who all are using it turns 1-3~~ Or Navarre for the whole map. And 2 Cavaliers. You said something about navarre still haveing speed issues. If so why would we give it to Roshea and Matthis who have them even more. Navarre doubles more with it than cavaliers and uses it more per chapter than Fighter. Competion? More like prefering worse option Chapter 11: Navarre can bo wonders to those Ballistas with Levin sword while Barst isnt around them. Chapter 12: We want everyone we can get to help with making space for Dracoknight/Paladin who goes for Boots. Navarre has 9 move, Barst has 6. Winner? Chapter 12x: Look its Hammer Jagen! No need for Hammer Barst ever again! Not that he was that usefull before... Chapter 13: Navarre does wonders with Silver/Levin on this 3 turn chapter. Barst has huge movement issues unless he is promoted. Navarre has none. Who was the better again? Chapter 14: Your assumed time of promotion. Sure barst is promoting for movement but Navarre is just fine with his 9. Sure his speed is starting to fall back but its not that bad yet. This chapter is one of Navarre's nice spots because he can help with boss area while our number one OP unit of high movement is getting us silver card. Can Jagen solo the Boss? No Can Barst get there? No. Chapter 15: Navarre can promote now and rape mages with javelin if needed I don't think so but maybe or assist marth while top drago and Jagen fly around. Barst can do the latter too so I say its draw. Chapter 16: Berzerk Barst hands down. Chapter 17: OP goes for Vip card but who kills the boss? I think Barst can do it but so can Navarre (thanks Astram). Look its another Speedwing! Who needs it? Navarre can solve all AS problems from here to endgame or we can give it to? Yeah no-one usefull... Chapter 17x: I bet 35$ that Navarre is now 20 so its time to promote. Lets compare! I took of couple of Lv. from barst bacause you overrate his usefullness in OP cavalier dominated game. I also gave Navarre 4 levels as Myrmidon because of early myrmidonity and Gaidens as well as a speedwing. UNIT Class Level HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 16/3 37.6 16.6 20.8 18.7 11.0 10.3 3.0 B Axe D Sword Narbal Paladin 20/1 39.1 14.7 12.4 *15.7 14.8 12.9 6.0 B Sword C Lance So lets see... Navarre is al around bulkier than Barst loses str by 2, skill by 8 and spe by 3. Speed difference isnt really that vital and Navarre use swords to compensate his weaker skill. Also Navarre has plenty of offence and I can't figure out any real uses for Barsts extra Offence that he can reach. Chapter 18: 10 move unit is more usefull on the bridges than 8 move. Also now we get the mercurius who is easily obtained by any flying scrub there is (Gordin, Norne, Matthis, Roshe, Vyland, Athena, Midia, Tomas) You have one of them pretty much anyway. And if you play like me you have every single one you can possibly get your hands on. Chapter 19: Someone has to get the Starsphere... Both are as usefull here. Chapter 20: Anything Draco Navarre does here is more than Barst. Well maybe Barst can kill a general or something. Chapter 20x: Gravidus dude's training field. Chapter 21 ->: Gravidus dude kills. Others Secret Shop. Can Barst Secret Shop? No. Can Navarre? yes. Also what if some lone enemy ignores Abel and goes for Marth? Its rare but it happens sometimes. In this rare case what do we do? Kill it with Navarre who is there while Barst has movement issues. For me it looks like Navarre IS the better in the midgame by a landslide and Barst's early goodness isnt that good. In a nutshell - Navarre does way better than he should looking at his time of draft. - He has many good and usefull weapons he only shares with one unit. - He will never have problems with keeping up with Marth to make way for him, in a game were only thing that matters is make way for Marth :P - Barst will fall behind most of the time. - Knight killing utility they both have is done better by Navarre after couple of chapters. - He can do the only really Important thing in lategame not counting Gravidus spamming, Secret Shopping. My apologies for anything I forgot. Edited February 28, 2011 by Sho.M.the.Money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 It's Nabarl, not Narbal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 nicknames are underrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 Thanks for Anouleth for pointing out the misspelling of Nabarl. Rebuttal: Firstly Im sorry about the Barst and OP Cavs in same team thing. However the fact that Navarre is drafted later is a pros for easier access. Also I might add that I did not say Barst should be drafted before Navarre. I said he is. There is a crystal clear difference between what should and what does happen... hint: Barst, thiefs and mages/healers are way overrated Thieves, Mages and healers are indeed overrated. Barst however isn't. Chapters 2 and 3Yeah, Yeah Navarre dont do anything Barst does something moving on... While Nabarl does nothing, while Barst does something beneficial. Chapter 4:I admit that Barst is clearly better here but navarre isn't completely useless either Well, no one is completely useless. But Nabarl is doing about as much as Castor at this point. Chapter 5:This one is 4 turned at best so Barst won't go bosskilling here. On the other hand Navarre wont kill the boss either but he can ORKO archers as a cavalier because they have Steel bows to drop them 1-2 AS. Sure Barst can kill knights but we have our Jagen/Cav/Shiida for that job. All draco Jagen fears is archers. And they are killed by basically everything . First off, Archers have 5 speed, and 5-6 strength here. That translates to 2-3. If the archers have 3 AS, Nabarl isn't doubling as a cav. But granted, he's probably still a myrmidon. And Pirate Barst can easily reach the throne by turn 4 and wreck everything in his path. He can do just as much as an OP cav here. Chapter 6:As I said Navarre can assist with the bosskill. Knights can be killed by OP units and Those who are left alive here are completely negateable with decent usage of baits. Also. For what its worth Jagen cann kill the Silver cav and reach the boss before Marth to make this chapter even easier. That Silver Lance dude generally needs to hang around to kill some Wolfguard members, so Jeigan won't be reaching the boss. As previously stated, an OP Cav doesn't need help with the boss. Oh, and Barst can reach the boss easily too. And one round him. On Turn 6 Chapter 6x:Here we can train our units, or be smart and train our Wpn levels. That we help with different utility things like Jagen's Hammer usage. Yeah, I agree. Although Jeigen doesn't need Hammer usage when all the enemies fall to Silver lances anyhow. Chapter 7:Im not sure but im pretty sure that Barst wont reach the boss by turn 6. This also means that his low movement will hold him down here. I think he wont reach enemies other than fliers who arent all that dangerous and easily baitable. ^dont exict Navarre is either holding cavaliers or assisting with bosskill. Actually, he can reach it by turn 5. And he does a helluva lot better job than anyone else at killing the boss. Chapter 8:As I said even Myrmidon Navarre can reach the boss. Barst our plessed hammer bot? I dont think so.. Again, Barst easily reaches the boss on turn 5. Chapter 9:Pirate Barst shines here hands down but our swordie Isnt bad either. Both do well here, but Barst's combat is better so, edge Barst. And he can do some damage to the boss too, although the OP cav is probably doing that job. C hapter 10:Barst do have easy time with the cavaliers but by now Navarre can have B rank in swords for Silver sword of awesomeness. Sure there is Ogma but why would we have both? Also Navarre is yet another time able to help with boss. Barst is training in the castle i think. Also Navarre's issues with speed are now in th past thnks to speedwing. This would be the time to explain why Navarre does get it.: Barst can again reach the throne on Turn 8. Again, Nabarl 0HKO's with expensive silver swords, while Barts 0HKO's with a cheap 1-2 range weapon. It costs 100G per swing of a silver sword, and Nabarl needs 2 swings to 0HKO, so thats 200G. Barts still needs 2 swings for most stuff, but his costs a grand total of 36G total. What level should Nabarl be here? Lemme See. At the end of: Chapter 3 - Maybe 4. Chapter 4 - Ok, 4 now. Chapter 5 - Still 4. Tons of better units here. Chapter 6 - 5. Can kill archers. Others kill the boss better. Chapter 6x - Sure, level 6. Chapter 7 - 7 sounds reasonable, lots of enemies. Chapter 8 - 8. Chapter 9 - 9 Chapter 10 - What's he killing here? Still 9 I calculate Chapters 3/4, and 9 come as a myrmidon, and the rest as a cav. His stats look like this. UNIT Class HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Nabarl Myrm 24 7.0 11.6 13.4 10.4 7.0 0.0 B Swords Nabarl Cavalier 26 9.0 4.6 8.4 10.4 10.0 0.0 B Swords E Lance Nabarl Cavalier 26 9.0 4.6 10.4 10.4 10.0 0.0 B Swords E Lance With the speedwing, those offensive stats look like something you would see from Cain/Abel/Frey in Chapter 1. Oh, and with the speedwing, he's only beating Barst's base speed by 1. And still hasn't hit his base Strength. 10 Speed is not enough to double the Cav's in the next chapter, as from chapter 11 on, cavs have from 8-10 AS. Cool, we just burnt a speedwing. So we have 3 axe users who all are using it turns 1-3~~ Or Navarre for the whole map. And 2 Cavaliers. You said something about navarre still haveing speed issues. If so why would we give it to Roshea and Matthis who have them even more. Navarre doubles more with it than cavaliers and uses it more per chapter than Fighter. Competion? More like prefering worse option Well seeing how the longest chapter takes 9 turns, and Marth doesn't have the boots yet, and our units all start closer than Marth, 6 mov characters can use then for quite a while. So still not exclusive. And a level 7 Roshea has roughly equal combat with Nabarl after using the speedwing. Chapter 11: Navarre can bo wonders to those Ballistas with Levin sword while Barst isnt around them. OP Cav/Jeigan can do the job just as well, or better. Chapter 12:We want everyone we can get to help with making space for Dracoknight/Paladin who goes for Boots. Navarre has 9 move, Barst has 6. Winner? Yeah, because Nabarl has Javelin useage and Can double Cavaliers/Boss/Do Shit all to Heimler. They both do next to nothing here. Barst can even stay back and pick up some sweet EXP from the Horsemen and Cavalier Reinforcement. Chapter 12x:Look its Hammer Jagen! No need for Hammer Barst ever again! Not that he was that usefull before... Oh, but he was very useful. Hammer Jeigan is cool though. Too bad Barst can still rip through everything he encounters. Jeigan can do other stuff, while Barst kills Knights too. He's a great utility character. Chapter 13:Navarre does wonders with Silver/Levin on this 3 turn chapter. Barst has huge movement issues unless he is promoted. Navarre has none. Who was the better again? Woop, Nabarl does 12 damage with the Levin sword. Only one Ballistae is needed to be cleared for Marth, and the OP Cav does that. Meatshields draw away ballistae fire from other drafted units. Chapter 14:Your assumed time of promotion. Sure barst is promoting for movement but Navarre is just fine with his 9. Sure his speed is starting to fall back but its not that bad yet. Since Barst is getting those smexy bosskills, he'll be at least level 18 here. This chapter is one of Navarre's nice spots because he can help with boss area while our number one OP unit of high movement is getting us silver card. Well, Barst can too. With 3 turns to spare. Can Jagen solo the Boss? Badly. Can Barst get there? On Turn 5. Chapter 15:Navarre can promote now and rape mages with javelin if needed I don't think so but maybe or assist marth while top drago and Jagen fly around. Barst can do the latter too so I say its draw. You only need Jeigan here, although your OP unit can do it too. Both just get minimal exp here. Chapter 16:Berzerk Barst hands down. Damn right. Chapter 17:OP goes for Vip card but who kills the boss? I think Barst can do it but so can Navarre (thanks Astram). Look its another Speedwing! Who needs it? Navarre can solve all AS problems from here to endgame or we can give it to? Yeah no-one usefull... Both can kill the boss, but Nabaral takes two turns. Barst one rounds with Silver. But really, this chapter is so short, it doesn't matter. This speedwing can go to Nabarl, sure. Think of a +4 speed Hero Bord using Silver Axes. Chapter 17x:I bet 35$ that Navarre is now 20 so its time to promote. Lets compare! I took of couple of Lv. from barst bacause you overrate his usefullness in OP cavalier dominated game. I also gave Navarre 4 levels as Myrmidon because of early myrmidonity and Gaidens as well as a speedwing. 35 bucks? Thanks dawg. Continuing on my list of Nabarl's Levels. Chapter 11: Sure, Level 10. Chapter 12: What's he doing here? Chapter 12x: Obligitory Gaiden Level. 11 Chapter 13: Still 11. One kill at the most. Chapter 14: Still not doing a ton. But 12 seems reasonable. Chapter 15: Not needed. Chapter 16: Lots of enemies, 13. Chapter 17: Meh, 14. Chapter 17x: I'll give him 2 levels here. Level 16 Eclipse has Nabarl at level 15 at the end of 17x on one of her runs. So those stats look more like... UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEP Barst Hero 18/3 39.6 17.8 21.8 19.1 11.8 12.3 3.0 B Axe D Sword Nabarl Paladin 16/1 35.8 13.4 10.7 13.2 13.2 12.2 6.0 B Sword D Lance Nabarl Swordmaster 16/1 33.8 11.4 17.7 19.2 13.2 9.2 3.0 A Sword Well... Woop, Barst wins again. Nabarl is rougly equal to base Horace in offence right now. Barst wins by 4 HP, 4 Str, 11 Skl, 6 Spd, -2 Lck, and -3 Res. That's like, +20 in total stats. I agree that skill is pretty useless in this game, unless you are facing a boss on a throne. 13 Speed and 13 Strength isn't what I would call plenty of offence. I also gave the same boosts and class routes you did. Chapter 18:10 move unit is more usefull on the bridges than 8 move. Also now we get the mercurius who is easily obtained by any flying scrub there is (Gordin, Norne, Matthis, Roshe, Vyland, Athena, Midia, Tomas) You have one of them pretty much anyway. And if you play like me you have every single one you can possibly get your hands on. Yeah, any flier can get Mercurius. Barst can rip shit up on the bridge before Marth passes him by one space. By that time, all the enemy units are dead. And 1 mov behind Marth still means he can still contribute. And his contributions are better than Nabral. Chapter 19: Someone has to get the Starsphere... Both are as usefull here. Barst doubles the Heros here. He is one of the best at clearing a path for Marth. Nabarl needs a crit. Jeigen makes a good Starsphere fetcher. Chapter 20:Anything Draco Navarre does here is more than Barst. Well maybe Barst can kill a general or something. Yeah, he can kill one of the two generals that threaten 2/3rds of Marth's HP. What exactly does Dracoknight Nabarl plan on doing with his D in lances, anyhow? Be arrowspate bait? Chapter 21 ->:Gravidus dude kills. Others Secret Shop. Can Barst Secret Shop? No. Can Navarre? yes. Also what if some lone enemy ignores Abel and goes for Marth? Its rare but it happens sometimes. In this rare case what do we do? Kill it with Navarre who is there while Barst has movement issues. Here is a list of units that can secret shop: Jeigen, Abel, Cain, Frey, Norne, Shiida, Wrys, Lena, Nabarl, Merric, Matthis, Hardin, Roshe, Biraku, Wendall, Athena, Raddy, Jeorge, Maria, Minerva, Linde, Midia, Tomas, Palla, Catria, Arran, Xane, Est. It's not like its exclusive to Nabral. And Barst's 8 movement is enough to hit the boss with a hand axe on turn 2, so he has more than enough movement to pick up anything threatening Marth that the Gradivus user missed. I'll also add in that Chapter 22 has a few Ridersbanes floating around, and Marth starts well away from the throne. So 8 Movement here is plenty. Chapter 23 isn't exactly great for either of them, as you only need to deploy swarm fodder, a Gradivus user, and Marth. Barst makes a great swarm target as a Berserker. Chapter 24 Barst can lead Marth over the mountains as a Berserker, while Nabarl isn't going anywhere on his horse. Or is doing little damage with his Javelin/Steel Lance. Endgame - Uh, they both survive? In a nutshell- Navarre does way better than he should looking at his time of draft. Woop. You overrate him. He's a good 3rd round pick. As are units like Cord and Wendall. - He has many good and usefull weapons he only shares with one unit. Yeah. That's a plus. - He will never have problems with keeping up with Marth to make way for him, in a game were only thing that matters is make way for Marth However, he will have problems killing stuff in Marth's way. - Barst will fall behind most of the time. I've already proved that Barst can reach the throne and finish the boss before Marth seizes. This means he isn't falling behind. - Knight killing utility they both have is done better by Navarre after couple of chapters. BAHAHAHAHA. No. And you only need Knight killing for earlygame, where weapon ranks are low. - He can do the only really Important thing in lategame not counting Gravidus spamming, Secret Shopping.So can like, 20 units. Your point? My apologies for anything I forgot. Yeah here: Barst beats Narbal earlygame due to 1-2 range You still haven't countered the fact that Narbal has no 1-2 range either I've said this twice now, and you blissfully ignore it. That's a huge issue Nabarl has. He doesn't have that till chapter 18. And it still isn't good. Barst >>> Nabarl I don't think you've touched on this either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I think this is the point where I admit my complete and utter defeat... concratulations Horace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Thanks, it was fun to debate with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I liked to debate with you too. Maybe we do this again some day in distant future with bit more egual standings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 For sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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